Use of 1st class when Std is overcrowded?

[AshValePsngr]

Hi All,

Yesterday I got on the train at Reading, heading to Paddington. Next, and final stop was Paddington. Standard was rammed, not even standing room in the aisles. First was less than half full. I got on and squashed in to a vestibule. As I was standing in the vestibule next to where first class started I wondered if I could find on train ticket staff to ask about sitting in first. As it happened I couldn't find anyone, other than the person pushing the first class trolley up and down. What should my expectations have been for an answer if I could have found someone to ask about sitting in first? Also as far as NRCOC 39 applies, what does it mean "no standard class accommodation is available". Does that mean no seats, or no standing area?

For ease of reference I've copy and pasted the first part of NRCOC 39 below

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class
accommodation is available, and ticket staff on that train give their permission, then you
may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without
extra charge.
On-train ticket staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the
equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class
ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be
withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your
journey or standard class accommodation becomes available......

 

[Ferret]

It's at the discretion of the staff. Generally, I will say 'yes' under condition 39 for a 10 minute hop, or to an elderly or disabled pax on a rammed train. Or the last time I did it, for a bloke on crutches who I thought would appreciate the legroom!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Also as far as NRCOC 39 applies, what does it mean "no standard class accommodation is available". Does that mean no seats, or no standing area?....

No seats and no standing area.

 

[ainsworth74]

No seats and no standing area.

Is that actually the offical definition of 'no standard class accommodation'? It's obviously the logical conclusion but I'm wondering if it's actually defined anywhere?

 

[steadmane]

A seat is never part of the contract with a non-reservable UK rail journey as I understand it. Interestingly I wondered about how you could use the Southern Advance tickets which include an unspecified seat reservation if there were no seats available. You could arguably turf someone out of a seat.

I think there would have to be a major incident in a crowded train before there was any sort of change to the crammed Standard/empty First issue.

 

[Flamingo]

If you were travelling from Reading to Paddington, and the train looked that crowded, why did you get on? There would be another service within five minutes.

also, why did you get in the first door, beside the steps (which you must have) rather than walk down the train towards the quieter coaches at the rear.

I hear this BS from passengers to and from Reading on a daily basis, on trains that have anything up to 100 empty seats in STD.

If it was my train, I can tell you, everybody standing in the 1st class vestibules would have been charged or moved within five minutes of departue. It's amazing how many people decide they can manage to walk after all when told to get their wallet out.

First class is declassified at the discresion of the train manager. Being too lazy to walk down the train is not a reason to justify a free upgrade.

 

[ess]

Why is 39 different for season ticket holders? What does that mean?

 

[AshValePsngr]

If you were travelling from Reading to Paddington, and the train looked that crowded, why did you get on? There would be another service within five minutes.

I had to get to work as quickly as possible, the next trains were slower.

also, why did you get in the first door, beside the steps (which you must have) rather than walk down the train towards the quieter coaches at the rear.

I was coming over the bridge as they were closing the doors, so got on at the nearest door. Also, on other occasions, I don't do the journey too often so don't know the best place to stand.

I hear this BS from passengers to and from Reading on a daily basis, on trains that have anything up to 100 empty seats in STD.

I would have walked down, but the aisles were full....

If it was my train, I can tell you, everybody standing in the 1st class vestibules would have been charged or moved within five minutes of departue. It's amazing how many people decide they can manage to walk after all when told to get their wallet out.

Agreed, I however was standing in the standard vestibule beside the the first class vestibule.

First class is declassified at the discresion of the train manager. Being too lazy to walk down the train is not a reason to justify a free upgrade.

I guess you would have answered no then? :roll: Would that be a typical response from train ticket staff, or are you generally more reluctant than most? This is why I ask the question as the NRCOC doesn't seem to imply that I should expect to be allowed, but otherwise why would that have that condition at all?

Flamingo, I usually like your responses, however you have jumped to a few conclusions on this one.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Interestingly I wondered about how you could use the Southern Advance tickets which include an unspecified seat reservation if there were no seats available. You could arguably turf someone out of a seat....

It is a 'booked place' rather than a 'reserved seat' so they would not have the right to turf someone out of a seat, however they could turf someone of the train if there was no space to get on (I have never heard of that happening though).

....I guess you would have answered no then? :roll: Would that be a typical response from train ticket staff, or are you generally more reluctant than most? This is why I ask the question as the NRCOC doesn't seem to imply that I should expect to be allowed, but otherwise why would that have that condition at all?....

If there was space in another part of the train, yes they can refuse as there is space in standard accommodation. It is actually quite common to have one part of the train full to the brim and other parts half empty simply because people want to be nearest to the exit at their destination (especially in the case of Paddington).

There are times when Voyagers and 185s have been packed out and people allowed in First Class. I even travelled on a MML 3-car 170/1 which had standard class passengers in first class, when the previous 2x170/1 service had failed and deposited it's passengers on the station in time for my train to arrive, no room to stand in any part of standard class on that service.

 

[MattRobinson]

Why is 39 different for season ticket holders? What does that mean?

Presumably because season tickets are cheaper per journey or to prevent someone from buying standard but requesting to be upgraded every time they travel?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[cuccir]

If you were travelling from Reading to Paddington, and the train looked that crowded, why did you get on? There would be another service within five minutes.

also, why did you get in the first door, beside the steps (which you must have) rather than walk down the train towards the quieter coaches at the rear.

I hear this BS from passengers to and from Reading on a daily basis, on trains that have anything up to 100 empty seats in STD.

If it was my train, I can tell you, everybody standing in the 1st class vestibules would have been charged or moved within five minutes of departue. It's amazing how many people decide they can manage to walk after all when told to get their wallet out.

First class is declassified at the discresion of the train manager. Being too lazy to walk down the train is not a reason to justify a free upgrade.

Out of interest, would you treat a season ticket holder differently to someone with a regular ticket? I can agree with the argument that season ticket holders ought to know better, but the same can't be expected of everyone.

 

[Greenback]

I had to get to work as quickly as possible, the next trains were slower.

It's the other people that also want to get to London/work as quickly as possible and leap onto the train a tthe enarest door to the steps that contribute to this phenomenon.

I was coming over the bridge as they were closing the doors, so got on at the nearest door. Also, on other occasions, I don't do the journey too often so don't know the best place to stand.

Again, this pretty normal for Reading. When I worked there, quite a lot of the non regular passengers would turn up with little or no idea of the timetable, but when they heard or saw a HST to London, they simply HAd to ge ton that particular train.

I would have walked down, but the aisles were full....

Which is another phenomenon caused by people all cramming into the nearest door!

Agreed, I however was standing in the standard vestibule beside the the first class vestibule.

I don't think you'll be charged for standing in the standard vestibule.

I guess you would have answered no then? :roll: Would that be a typical response from train ticket staff, or are you generally more reluctant than most? This is why I ask the question as the NRCOC doesn't seem to imply that I should expect to be allowed, but otherwise why would that have that condition at all?

The condition is there so that on train staff have the discretion to alleviate serious overcrowding. It isn't intended to be used if there are seats or standing space available in standard, albeit in a different section of the train.

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry AshVale, but I hear this particular tale of woe on a daily basis. I'm afraid I didn't leap to any conclusions, your answers were exactly what I expected them to be, although re-reading my original post I could have been a bit less abrupt, for that I apologise.

Passengers going to/from Reading standing in 1st class are a problem. We have increased capicity to a significant proportion (a lot of trains now have an extra 70-80 seats) but this has made no differe to the people who want to stand (and moan). The only thing that will keep these passengers happy is to run the trains in reverse, with 1st class at the rear, but our 1st class passengers say that they consider one of the things they pay a premium for is having 1st near the exit at Paddington. They can't be expected to pay for a premium product and then have the 1st class invaded with people who want the same convenience but are not willing to pay for it. Harsh maybe, but I'm not going to enter into a debate on the social ethics of it, in the real world that's how it works.

I did post on Sunday on a thread advising another would-be commuter from Reading about the best way to travel, I'm on a phone at the moment & can't add links, but if you search for it, it might help.

On a general point, if you do travel in 1st on Pad-Rdg stretch be prepared to pay the approx £20 upgrade (£5 weekends). It is very rare for a TM to declassify it for "normal" overcrowding. It is usually possible to get down the train with a minimum of fuss, people will let you through.

Just avoid the 1915 Swansea at all costs, it's a hell of a train (first SSR)

 

[maniacmartin]

What's most annoying on busy trains is if you want to walk down to the rear where there are most likely to be seats, but can't because of all the other passengers standing who are in the way!

 

[sheff1]

What's most annoying on busy trains is if you want to walk down to the rear where there are most likely to be seats, but can't because of all the other passengers standing who are in the way!

Indeed, and this is not just on the Reading - Paddington stretch.

It is all very well advising people to walk down the platform to board the less busy coaches, but this is not always possible for various reasons. And that is without the announcements at the likes of Leicester advising everyone that first class is at the rear, only for the the train to pull in with first class at the front (or vice versa) - cue pandemonium on the platform and, when the whistles start blowing, on board as well.

 

[bb21]

It is all very well advising people to walk down the platform to board the less busy coaches, but this is not always possible for various reasons. And that is without the announcements at the likes of Leicester advising everyone that first class is at the rear, only for the the train to pull in with first class at the front (or vice versa) - cue pandemonium on the platform and, when the whistles start blowing, on board as well.

Leicester had a very naughty habit of doing this, especially with HSTs, although recently things seem to have improved much. I have not heard one incorrect formation advice for a good couple of months.

 

[LexyBoy]

Passengers going to/from Reading standing in 1st class are a problem. We have increased capicity to a significant proportion (a lot of trains now have an extra 70-80 seats) but this has made no differe to the people who want to stand (and moan). The only thing that will keep these passengers happy is to run the trains in reverse, with 1st class at the rear, but our 1st class passengers say that they consider one of the things they pay a premium for is having 1st near the exit at Paddington.

Do you think the new station will help things at the Reading end? It looks like passengers should be deposited throughout standard rather than at coach E/F. Paddington's a bit more difficult although perhaps the shift to more traffic going via the H&C platforms might help, and if Crossrail is signed via the overbridge then that might help too.

I've thought for a while that a colour coded timetable on posters at Reading indicating the chances of getting a seat could help matters a bit - most people will ignore it but if a few choose quieter services then that might help. There does seem to be a fair bit of difference in loading.

 

[Flamingo]

Various managers keep telling us that the new entrance will make a difference at Reading. I'm not convinced!

 

[CC 72100]

I've thought for a while that a colour coded timetable on posters at Reading indicating the chances of getting a seat could help matters a bit - most people will ignore it but if a few choose quieter services then that might help. There does seem to be a fair bit of difference in loading.

Didn't London Midland do something like this?

Only problem is it's done for a normal service day, and totally changes when a fair share of the trains are invariably cancelled!

 

[Eagle]

I've thought for a while that a colour coded timetable on posters at Reading indicating the chances of getting a seat could help matters a bit - most people will ignore it but if a few choose quieter services then that might help. There does seem to be a fair bit of difference in loading.

Like the ones SWT use?

 

[Tibbs]

Didn't London Midland do something like this?

Only problem is it's done for a normal service day, and totally changes when a fair share of the trains are invariably cancelled!

LM have this at Watford and Euston. It also helps at Watford to know where to stand on the platform.

What would really help me is if they'd say which trains are used. I avoid 321s where possible, and would much rather sit in blue seats than green.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Same on SWT from Guildford/Woking to Waterloo. The problem at Guildford is that the steps from the footbridge come out right next to the most constricted part of a 444, the guards office and buffet are right by the door, to the right is 2/3rds of a standard coach with a big universal toilet at the end and to the left is half a standard coach plus a largely empty first class section. People bundle into first class on the basis that there is no room elsewhere despite there being three other coaches with lots of room.

Then at Woking we just get people trying it on as they know there is a good chance they won't get ticket checked in the 25 minute journey.

 

[SS4]

LM have this at Watford and Euston. It also helps at Watford to know where to stand on the platform.

What would really help me is if they'd say which trains are used. I avoid 321s where possible, and would much rather sit in blue seats than green.

They also have them in the Birmingham area on some of the Cross City at least although no platform areas are given although erosion on the platform is usually a good indicator

From a selfish ******* point of view I like it when everyone gets on the back because I get a good seat at the front (and vice versa). When coming back from University (towards BHM) I'd always stand under the notice which said 3/6 car stop and board quickly at the front

 

[Flamingo]

,
I had somebody last week having a go at me for announcing there were seats in A "because it's the quiet carriage and we don't want people in here".

 

[Greenback]

The enw entrance may make a difference if it is additional access to the platforms. But if they nerely replac eone access point with a different one, all it would do is transfer the problem to a different part of the train!

(It's some time since I looked at the design of the new Reading!)

 

[CrazyRupes]

I apologise if this has been discussed before. What are the rules about standing in first class without a first class ticket when my Southern train is majorly overcrowded and is looking worse than a London Underground train at rush hour?

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware unless it's been officially declassified by a member of staff or via an announcement on the station or train then standing in first class will leave you liable for a PF even if the train is heavily overcrowded.

 

[D1009]

As far as I'm aware unless it's been officially declassified by a member of staff or via an announcement on the station or train then standing in first class will leave you liable for a PF even if the train is heavily overcrowded.

Though the chances of being asked for a ticket under those circumstances are pretty low.

 

[swt_passenger]

The enw entrance may make a difference if it is additional access to the platforms. But if they nerely replac eone access point with a different one, all it would do is transfer the problem to a different part of the train!)

It will be completely different, particularly in the down direction, where currently there's an incentive to be at the back of the train because it is nearer the single exit from P7 (the old P4).

In the future all main line down services except the Newbury route will be on the island, and there'll be staircases/escalators to/from the 'transfer deck' (aka massive footbridge) in both east and west facing directions. These replace the existing footbridge which will be removed, so they aren't an additional option. Then the transfer deck position will be at the mid point of the train, and the route to coach A (assuming current HST) will be no longer than the route to the front of the train.

IMHO the new layout ought to go some way to achieving better passenger distribution along the trains - though no doubt pax will still try it on to be near the front at Paddington. But 50% of those who claim to be 'running for the train at the last minute' really ought to end up at the back...

(Oh and anyone using the lifts ought to end up in the middle!)

 

[Nym]

LM have this at Watford and Euston. It also helps at Watford to know where to stand on the platform.

What would really help me is if they'd say which trains are used. I avoid 321s where possible, and would much rather sit in blue seats than green.

I've found the 321s off Euston are now a better choice as no-one likes travelling on them, but they're miles better than a 350/2...