Use of Tablets by Drivers

[AngusH]

Disclaimer: not a driver, not connected with this program at all.

From reading the thread, it seems like there are two different things that are being experimented with:

1) Electronic handling of offline paperwork, logging, rosters, etc

2) Improving information display to the driver while moving or when stopped.


It's really convenient and pretty cheap to use off the shelf hardware for everything and if you have one tablet, why not use it for both?

But it may be here that what is actually required is two separate tablets with different applications running on each. Rather than one tablet with both functions on it. (Possibly the same model of tablet, just set up differently)

There is also a bit of a puzzle in that the paperwork handling seems more orientated around the individual person, who would be issued with a specific tablet with their paperwork on it.

While the driver information stuff seems very much orientated around the vehicle, the improvement is lost if the tablet is missing, which suggests a permanent captive fitting?

 

[muz379]

Disclaimer: not a driver, not connected with this program at all.

From reading the thread, it seems like there are two different things that are being experimented with:

1) Electronic handling of offline paperwork, logging, rosters, etc

2) Improving information display to the driver while moving or when stopped.


It's really convenient and pretty cheap to use off the shelf hardware for everything and if you have one tablet, why not use it for both?

But it may be here that what is actually required is two separate tablets with different applications running on each. Rather than one tablet with both functions on it. (Possibly the same model of tablet, just set up differently)

There is also a bit of a puzzle in that the paperwork handling seems more orientated around the individual person, who would be issued with a specific tablet with their paperwork on it.

While the driver information stuff seems very much orientated around the vehicle, the improvement is lost if the tablet is missing, which suggests a permanent captive fitting?

I personally think the end result is going to be that all drivers are issued with tablets for use of distributing rulebooks , notices rosters etc .

And then as traction is replaced the traction itself is going to come with devices simillar to the mitrac or the TMS on some other traction .

I cant see there being any point in retrofitting brackets for tablets just to display a diagram on some of the older DMU's and EMU's out there .

 

[455driver]

I agree with most of the stuff being put on the tablet but I like my paper schedule for a couple of reasons-
1/ If there are an issue with me missing a station then its there in black and white whether its me or a schedule error, if it was a schedule error on the tablet then when I got back to the depot (after being met) it would automatically update and suddenly its my fault because the 'error' has been corrected.
Cynical old twit aint I!

2/ When the siggy gives me any instructions they always get scribbled down on the schedule, quick and easy because its on the desk with a pen beside it, with the tablet it would be a lot more mucking about.

 

[rdeez]

...Why?

The first one ever to determine the cause of an incident to be distraction caused by Angry Birds...

It was a not very obvious joke. I'll get my coat...

 

[ComUtoR]

2/ When the siggy gives me any instructions they always get scribbled down on the schedule, quick and easy because its on the desk with a pen beside it, with the tablet it would be a lot more mucking about.

Truly I do not think it is any form of replacement for pen and paper and the back of the schedule makes for convenient white space. The whole electronic diagram is more of an anecdotal thing being touted. It would need to have an additional function, such as live delay reporting to be of any real benefit over paper. As muz says its a very expensive bit of kit just to be a diagram.

My only concern is the one of it being cradled/plugged in to the Train. I really wanna know what it being used for. The only role I see it is one as a cheap Mitrac and TMS. I haven't seen anyone who has them plugged in coming forward to give us a low down so it's an educated guess at best.

 

[whhistle]

Do those who are against tablets in the cab not think having a screen with live updates on their line would be useful? Sounds like a number of TMS systems that are already in use.

Why people are connecting them with playing games while driving, I will never know...
Obviously they would be locked down to certain programs. Perhaps that isn't so obvious

 

[Legzr1]

Seems like some drivers are dismissing tablets just for the sake of it.

It's coming so it's time to embrace it.

TAS is excellent for the reason it was invented - delay attribution.

The fact something like an ipad can also save time and money on publications and add apps like loco and wagon maintenance in real time, production of TOPS lists and all rule book modules / general and company appendices as well as many others already mentioned (and some yet to be designed - not a week goes by in GBrf where another app is added - 90% of them are useful ) makes it an excellent tool.

TAS can be fully operated using less button presses than changing zones on the NRN radio!!

Dinosaurs, don't fear change

 

[js47604]

Speaking as a driver,I couldn't care less about delay attribution,that's a job for somebody else.
Speaking as a union rep tablets would only be introduced by agreement and that will not be forthcoming.

 

[ComUtoR]

Speaking as a driver,I couldn't care less about delay attribution,that's a job for somebody else.

It's your job to drive the train to the timetable. It is then your job to report the delays. Where it is attributed is down to others but it is your responsibility to report it. Feel free to do this in your own time, at the end of your diagram, during your PNB, or frankly whenever. IF TMS automatically does this or tablets make it easier in any way then I'm all for it. IF TMS reduces the number of delays then I would get less reports. TMS also will now provide an excuse for being late. I was obeying the TMS would be my new go to reason for late running.

Speaking as a union rep tablets would only be introduced by agreement and that will not be forthcoming.

Sorry that is pure bravado. ASLEF have already supported their introduction. They have happened and are increasing rapidly. What specific objections do you have ?

 

[capital12]

Speaking as a driver,I couldn't care less about delay attribution,that's a job for somebody else.
Speaking as a union rep tablets would only be introduced by agreement and that will not be forthcoming.

Also speaking as a driver, if it carries all the publications and makes my bag lighter then bring it on!

Speaking as a non Union member its that typical Union instant dismissal attitude that puts me off joining one!

 

[Greenback]

It doesn't seem like a very sensible position to simply dismiss the idea out of hand. As capital12 says, if it simply replaces paper publications, then that's an advantage for many!

Obviously it needs looking at, but mobile phones were embraced as potentially being an aid tot he driver and the company.

 

[carriageline]

The railway is rapidly bearing down on this 'digital railway' plan they have.

Unfortunately, the railway always sees new technology as 'it will never work', even if it has been proven to be working.

Take traffic management for example, everyone seems to think it's going to flop over, but that was proven to be good and worked well. And the 'implementation team' were fairly happy with it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[E&W Lucas]

What you can be certain of, is that relevant TOCs and the Union are behaving very responsibly over this.

An internet forum is not the place to go into specifics. Feedback goes through the proper channels.

The technology needs to be looked at. Tablets are on trial. That is all. The benefits are obvious. The possible elimination of "fail to calls"; easier delay attribution (yes that IS part of our job as drivers), etc. However, if you introduce any technology, there will be unforseens and teething issues.

Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of tablets in the cab yet. The whole mobile technology issue needs to be sorted out. I don't think anyone has a problem with them being used to distribute publications, but then again, we need to be able to refer to the device in the cab. At the moment, not possible.

 

[Greenback]

What you can be certain of, is that relevant TOCs and the Union are behaving very responsibly over this.

An internet forum is not the place to go into specifics. Feedback goes through the proper channels.

The technology needs to be looked at. Tablets are on trial. That is all. The benefits are obvious. The possible elimination of "fail to calls"; easier delay attribution (yes that IS part of our job as drivers), etc. However, if you introduce any technology, there will be unforseens and teething issues.

Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of tablets in the cab yet. The whole mobile technology issue needs to be sorted out

I agree. At this point we shouldn't say they will definitely be introduced and will be fantastic, but we shouldn't say over my dead body either.

 

[Legzr1]

I agree. At this point we shouldn't say they will definitely be introduced and will be fantastic, but we shouldn't say over my dead body either.

And how does all this tally with the fact that some FOCs have already carried out RA, long-winded trials and cleared out most of the bugs over a year ago?

Why do TOCs always seem to take three times as long to carry out the same procedures?
Is it that TOC drivers are more stubborn and/or fearful of change?

Some of the head-in-the-sand comments above really make me chuckle

Don't you trust yourselves not to check emails when approaching reds at 20mph or to put Angry Birds on pause after PNB's?


Edited to add:
Greenback, I quoted you but this post isn't 'having a go' at you specifically.

 

[Hadders]

Speaking as a union rep tablets would only be introduced by agreement and that will not be forthcoming.

I'm not anti union and I don't know enough to about whether tablets are a good thing or not but this is a terrible attitude to have.

I'd like to think that a union would look at it with an open mind, not just dismiss it out of hand.

It's this type of attitude that gives transport unions a bad name.

 

[SPADTrap]

Don't you trust yourselves not to check emails when approaching reds at 20mph or to put Angry Birds on pause after PNB's?

How long would it take for someone to assume their driver is doing just that behind the throttle of their train and report it via twitter?! We've heard enough stories of drivers being 'reported' for things that didn't happen as it is let alone something as serious as that!

I'm all for them however but they'd need some kind of charging dock in the cab!

 

[notadriver]

How long would it take for someone to assume their driver is doing just that behind the throttle of their train and report it via twitter?! We've heard enough stories of drivers being 'reported' for things that didn't happen as it is let alone something as serious as that!

How would they know and anyway do (British) drivers really do that sort of thing?

 

[cjmillsnun]

How would they know and anyway do (British) drivers really do that sort of thing?

They "know" because they look in and see someone in the cab "on the phone", not realising that driver is on a railway system talking to either a signaller or the guard.

They then send in a report to that TOC's twitter account. It happens all the time

 

[muz379]

They "know" because they look in and see someone in the cab "on the phone", not realising that driver is on a railway system talking to either a signaller or the guard.

They then send in a report to that TOC's twitter account. It happens all the time

Indeed Ive seen various incidents like this . Ive even heard of instances where someone has looked through the spy hole on a rear cab , seen the guard sat there reading/sending an email or playing on their phone and then gone on twitter and reported that "the driver" is playing on their phone . Cue one driver getting a welcome reception from some DM's. Obviously it results in NFA but still stressful for those involved

 

[notadriver]

You can't really see anything through the spyhole ?! It's a one way viewing device ?

 

[muz379]

You can't really see anything through the spyhole ?! It's a one way viewing device ?

At least where I work on some traction its a circle or two one above the other about the diameter of a 1 pence piece in the black film applied to the windows in cab doors . Standing at the right angle it would be possible to see into the cab . A lot of them have been covered over with union stickers or bits of tape and all sorts to stop people spying in
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also with the black film if the light is on in the cab , or its daylight if you cup your hands round and look right into it you can see a darkened version of the cab

 

[SPADTrap]

At least where I work on some traction its a circle or two one above the other about the diameter of a 1 pence piece in the black film applied to the windows in cab doors . Standing at the right angle it would be possible to see into the cab . A lot of them have been covered over with union stickers or bits of tape and all sorts to stop people spying in
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also with the black film if the light is on in the cab , or its daylight if you cup your hands round and look right into it you can see a darkened version of the cab

Don't tell that to the spotters!

 

[js47604]

I'm not anti union and I don't know enough to about whether tablets are a good thing or not but this is a terrible attitude to have.

I'd like to think that a union would look at it with an open mind, not just dismiss it out of hand.

It's this type of attitude that gives transport unions a bad name.

I speak as an individual who has successfully defended drivers on charges relating to unauthorised use of technology and at this point in time the preferred option is not to put the temptation there,as we have explained to the drivers in our company without complaint.

If the protection of members gives the unions a bad name then god help us.

 

[Legzr1]

How's about answering the (perfectly reasonable) points raised by others that, in fact, delay attribution IS part of the drivers role?

 

[SPADTrap]

How's about answering the (perfectly reasonable) points raised by others that, in fact, delay attribution IS part of the drivers role?

To me delay attribution and delay reporting are two different things. My TOC indeed has delay attributers, they are not drivers. We just give details regarding a delay and someone else argues over who is at fault based on what my report says, I just state facts (GSM-R failure to register, rebooted by fitter yet problem persisted, getting through to Wimbledon panel while sitting in Liverpool Street for example) I wouldn't ever say that NR were at fault etc, that is what they do.

 

[js47604]

Everybody is entitled to their views and I stand by mine.

 

[Darandio]

and at this point in time the preferred option is not to put the temptation there

Are these drivers responsible, mature adults that can make a decision for themselves? If not, what the hell are they doing in such a position of responsibility?

To even read that drivers are being advised because they seemingly cannot decide themselves not to abuse the use of the equipment is staggering.

It smacks of nothing to do with protecting members, but meddling, as it generally is with unions.

 

[Legzr1]

To me delay attribution and delay reporting are two different things. My TOC indeed has delay attributers, they are not drivers. We just give details regarding a delay and someone else argues over who is at fault based on what my report says, I just state facts (GSM-R failure to register, rebooted by fitter yet problem persisted, getting through to Wimbledon panel while sitting in Liverpool Street for example) I wouldn't ever say that NR were at fault etc, that is what they do.

Yes, fair point but I was going to add that TAS makes reporting of delays far simpler, takes less time and saves having to scratch your head remembering / try to read your own writing (written in a hurry on a scrap of paper lol) on a typical start/stop freight turn.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the term TDA as an umbrella.

I had hoped for a little more engagement from js rather than the one-line post above.

Saying that, I know how ASLEF reps work
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It smacks of nothing to do with protecting members, but meddling, as it generally is with unions.

Are you serious?

Perhaps you have further examples of this 'meddling as it is generally'?

 

[SPADTrap]

Yes, fair point but I was going to add that TAS makes reporting of delays far simpler, takes less time and saves having to scratch your head remembering / try to read your own writing (written in a hurry on a scrap of paper lol) on a typical start/stop freight turn.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the term TDA as an umbrella.

I had hoped for a little more engagement from js rather than the one-line post above.

Saying that, I know how ASLEF reps work

Fair point, I wasn't saying you were wrong as I don't know how your TOC works and I know there are differences