Use of the GSM-R by signallers/control to contact drivers

[skyhigh]

This came to mind as a result of the other thread on drivers using SG at signals, but I thought it was off-topic enough that a separate thread might be beneficial. I'm mainly asking from the perspective of a driver who wants to understand the signaller's position better.

In training we're told about the use of berth triggered messages and area broadcasts, but in the years I've been driving I've never experienced one. Are signallers wary of using these or is there some other reason why they seem pretty rare? I've seen comments on here which suggest people in other areas experience use of these, so is it a regional thing? In the last couple of weeks I've been stopped at reds to be told of an ESR with no signage and a TSR where the warning board was missing, which would seem fairly good uses for a berth triggered broadcast?

I was also held outside of Leeds during the bag-on-the-OHLE incident. I was stopped at a red and got no response to the SG or phone calls to the signaller answered. From the guard I gathered what was going on and assumed the signaller was busy dealing with it. After around 10 mins I got a call from the signaller to tell me what was happening and that they would phone me back with an update. Again, to someone who doesn't know, it would seem that an area broadcast would save time by not needing to phone every driver who was stopped to tell them what was happening.

And just as a final question, I've heard on here of drivers getting a 'Contact control' message on the GSMR or Control phoning the driver. Is this just a DOO thing, as I've never heard of either of these happening to drivers at my depot (though obviously we often contact Control via the GSMR).

Thanks for any insights.

 

[lineclear]

Many signallers are wary of using berth triggered broadcasts as there is no way of ensuring that the driver has correctly understood the message. They may acknowledge the broadcast, but believe they heard something different to what the signaller intended. With conventional communication, this is detected with the repeat back, which allows the signaller to correct the driver.

There is also the problem that GSM-R, and broadcasts in particular, are not as reliable as some perceive. Experiments in one signal box found that only around half of berth triggered broadcasts were acknowledged by drivers. I once read on this forum that the poster's driver complained that no general broadcast was made in relation to a severely disruptive incident. I know one was made: I made it! I have also witnessed an occasion where multiple drivers rang up to ask whether they could move after they had received a REC. The signaller had not received it.

In severe disruption, the signaller is not just busy telling drivers what is going on, but dealing with the incident itself. With regard to the problems at Leeds, I suspect the signaller was busy getting lines examined, reporting the outcomes of examinations, granting line blockages to deal with the problems, etc. In this kind of situation, multiple drivers are likely to be ringing at once, as well as station staff, track staff etc. There simply isn't time between calls to make another one.

 

[endofthetunnel]

I think there’s a few answers from my experiences as a signaller (as it happens, in your area skyhigh)

Berth triggered broadcasts are rarely used for two reasons mainly -
- firstly the area needs to be approved for use in the box instructions and the system work correctly. We have one stretch of line where it just fails to trigger in one direction ever. Something to do with swapping between masts I’m told, so even though we do get a message of success/fail, theres always a niggle of Did it work?

- then, the most common one sadly I’ve found, a lack of signallers desire/ability/skill on the GSMR. Berth triggered broadcasts first need to be recorded, then allocated a trigger berth and then activated. A process that can easily take a few minutes and require thought about exactly where to play it, and when to check for acknowledgement. It can often be simpler for signallers to just stop trains and deal with it, especially if they’re already busy they ironically won’t have time to pause for 5 mins to set it up. We also have a very specific script to fit in (about ST button etc) that makes the whole recording needing to fit into a set period of time just annoying!

Plus if it’s for example an ESR in a mixed traffic area, you might not want to tell every train about the ESR, or they might go a different route between a time you can tell them and the acknowledgment time. Or only Electric units…etc

At my regular box we have a couple of regular situations for which I have messages recorded ready to go, with berths assigned etc. and I know they will work, so they simply need switching on when the situation arises.

The general broadcast (like the OHLE at Leeds) is a similar thing, often it can be forgotten that it might save some effort to do a quick area broadcast to explain the situation. Again, a mix of signaller experience and workload is the root cause there I think, but the prescribed nature of what can and can’t be said via broadcast means it gets under used.

 

[the sniper]

In the last couple of weeks I've been stopped at reds to be told of an ESR with no signage and a TSR where the warning board was missing, which would seem fairly good uses for a berth triggered broadcast?

I'd think it'd be less suitable for the former than the latter, depending on the circumstances. Personally I'd rather them under use them, they can be more distracting and untimely than other things operators forbid to avoid distractions.

 

[skyhigh]

In severe disruption, the signaller is not just busy telling drivers what is going on, but dealing with the incident itself. With regard to the problems at Leeds, I suspect the signaller was busy getting lines examined, reporting the outcomes of examinations, granting line blockages to deal with the problems, etc. In this kind of situation, multiple drivers are likely to be ringing at once, as well as station staff, track staff etc. There simply isn't time between calls to make another one.

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, just to be clear I wasn't suggesting any error or poor decision on the part of the signaller and I can imagine how busy they were. I was just asking from a perspective where I all I know is 'they can do this thing' without knowing what it involves. From our position it's easy to think 'surely this would make their lives easier' so it's interesting to have a better idea what is going on at their end.

I think there’s a few answers from my experiences as a signaller (as it happens, in your area skyhigh)

Berth triggered broadcasts are rarely used for two reasons mainly -
- firstly the area needs to be approved for use in the box instructions and the system work correctly. We have one stretch of line where it just fails to trigger in one direction ever. Something to do with swapping between masts I’m told, so even though we do get a message of success/fail, theres always a niggle of Did it work?

- then, the most common one sadly I’ve found, a lack of signallers desire/ability/skill on the GSMR. Berth triggered broadcasts first need to be recorded, then allocated a trigger berth and then activated. A process that can easily take a few minutes and require thought about exactly where to play it, and when to check for acknowledgement. It can often be simpler for signallers to just stop trains and deal with it, especially if they’re already busy they ironically won’t have time to pause for 5 mins to set it up. We also have a very specific script to fit in (about ST button etc) that makes the whole recording needing to fit into a set period of time just annoying!

Plus if it’s for example an ESR in a mixed traffic area, you might not want to tell every train about the ESR, or they might go a different route between a time you can tell them and the acknowledgment time. Or only Electric units…etc

At my regular box we have a couple of regular situations for which I have messages recorded ready to go, with berths assigned etc. and I know they will work, so they simply need switching on when the situation arises.

The general broadcast (like the OHLE at Leeds) is a similar thing, often it can be forgotten that it might save some effort to do a quick area broadcast to explain the situation. Again, a mix of signaller experience and workload is the root cause there I think, but the prescribed nature of what can and can’t be said via broadcast means it gets under used.

Again thanks for your interesting reply - I imagine I've probably spoken to you at some point It's very much one of my bugbears that drivers and signallers don't seem to get released to see the reality of what is going on at the other end. I'd love to have the chance to come up to the ROC and see the reality of what goes on and talk to some of the signallers (both to know what we could do to help the signaller and to help them understand why we might do things we do) but that just doesn't seem to be a thing that management are interested in.

 

[endofthetunnel]

I'd love to have the chance to come up to the ROC and see the reality of what goes on and talk to some of the signallers (both to know what we could do to help the signaller and to help them understand why we might do things we do) but that just doesn't seem to be a thing that management are interested in.

I think - like you - that this sort of information helps everyone, understanding how we each approach situations etc

I’ve personally managed to cab ride my entire patch, thanks to a proactive manager and some pestering on my part - and my willingness to do it on days off. Once the hoops have been jumped through to get a cab pass, being able to be released for a day to cab ride is still just so far down the list nowadays! I found it really useful both to see some signal sightings/junction layouts but also to chat to the drivers and share the knowledge.

I’ve never had a driver visit my current resident box, I’ve offered the odd one who’s been waiting an hour in station during unusual weekend turnarounds etc the chance to pop for a cuppa and toilet break but never been taken up, and again I expect the chance for a paid trip to boxes or the ROC just never happens.

A big shame for both parties.

 

[High Dyke]

Personally I'll use the 'wait signal' function if the train is only stopped for a few minutes. However, where the delay might be longer or I need to speak to the driver then the contact signaller button is the one for me.

I tend to call a driver as a matter of courtesy to outline the reason for being stopped. With regards to the berth triggered broadcasts, then they can.only be used in certain circumstances and don't suit every location.

As for reception, I work.one box that doesn't always receive calls / messages etc. That came to notice a couple of years ago. The respective (controlling) signal box never received a Railway Emergency Call ( REC), but the boxes either side did.

 

[theageofthetra]

Personally I'll use the 'wait signal' function if the train is only stopped for a few minutes. However, where the delay might be longer or I need to speak to the driver then the contact signaller button is the one for me.

I tend to call a driver as a matter of courtesy to outline the reason for being stopped. With regards to the berth triggered broadcasts, then they can.only be used in certain circumstances and don't suit every location.

As for reception, I work.one box that doesn't always receive calls / messages etc. That came to notice a couple of years ago. The respective (controlling) signal box never received a Railway Emergency Call ( REC), but the boxes either side did.

That's shocking that wasn't picked up as part of testing during the GSMR roll out.

 

[jimfrst]

At my TOC we now can receive “contact control” on the GSMR, I have received it on a couple of occasions when running late due to disruption to make changes to the stopping pattern.

Had a few berth triggered broadcasts in the past but none for several years.
Definitely would have saved time on some of the occasions where it should have been used.
My guess is signaller workload means they don’t have the time to set up the broadcast as well as dealing with the disruption.

I have been trying to arrange for a visit to the signal box with my trainee so we both can get an idea of what goes on but so far had no luck, would be good for a signaller to come out for a cab ride with me but can’t see that happening in the future either

 

[ComUtoR]

We've had CONTACT CONTROL for a while but it's rarely used. Mostly it's for disruption and being told to run fast somewhere.

Berth Triggered / General calls I'm generally on the fence with. I've discussed on this forum before how complicated they are to set up and what the pitfalls are. For me, it's just another example of the railway poorly implementing tech and its associated training.

 

[357]

At my TOC we now can receive “contact control” on the GSMR, I have received it on a couple of occasions when running late due to disruption to make changes to the stopping pattern.

Had a few berth triggered broadcasts in the past but none for several years.
Definitely would have saved time on some of the occasions where it should have been used.
My guess is signaller workload means they don’t have the time to set up the broadcast as well as dealing with the disruption.

I have been trying to arrange for a visit to the signal box with my trainee so we both can get an idea of what goes on but so far had no luck, would be good for a signaller to come out for a cab ride with me but can’t see that happening in the future either

I was told as a trainee that I wouldn't learn anything up there that's related to the questions on the 5 dayer so they wouldn't agree to it. Fairly sure we are at the same TOC

Regarding disruption updates - we now have the ability for Control to make PA announcements on the GSMR during disruption, but according to the policy they should call the driver and ask first.

Personally I don't see why control can't be given the ability to make general broadcasts to their own trains so the drivers can also know what's going on! If for whatever reason it's not a good time to be listening to a general broadcast, they can be muted using the X and I believe will replay after a few minutes.

 

[jimfrst]

I was told as a trainee that I wouldn't learn anything up there that's related to the questions on the 5 dayer so they wouldn't agree to it. Fairly sure we are at the same TOC

Regarding disruption updates - we now have the ability for Control to make PA announcements on the GSMR during disruption, but according to the policy they should call the driver and ask first.

Personally I don't see why control can't be given the ability to make general broadcasts to their own trains so the drivers can also know what's going on! If for whatever reason it's not a good time to be listening to a general broadcast, they can be muted using the X and I believe will replay after a few minutes.

We are at the same TOC, after several conversations some of the training department now thinks it would be beneficial to visit the signal box during the classroom based training. I had mentioned they should actually go and learn the route first and then I think the visit would be more useful for the new drivers.

 

[Economist]

I once received an area broadcast on approach to a red signal with fairly late sighting which protected a junction. I hit the "x" button on the GSM-R to disregard it, stopped at the red and contacted the signaller to ask that the broadcast be moved since I considered it to be a SPAD risk. Apparently, the broadcast was due to an ESR indicator "Dalek" not flashing and the signal had been held to ensure I did not proceed without acknowleging the message. I sent an email to my manager to keep them informed and asked if there could be a discussion between driving and signalling management about the positioning of general broadcast messages on approach to restrictive signals.

Nothing came of it, less than a year later there was a SPAD resulting from a driver at the same company being distracted by an area broadcast on cautionary signalling...

 

[Skoodle]

One thing that annoys me is we'll get General Broadcast about underground lines being down on approach to interchanges to LUL, but they'll never do one when there's disruption on our line. Instead we are sat waiting not having any clue what's going on. Just a simple "Faulty train at xxx location, obey signas" would be enough for us to pass on.

 

[Sunset route]

We are at the same TOC, after several conversations some of the training department now thinks it would be beneficial to visit the signal box during the classroom based training. I had mentioned they should actually go and learn the route first and then I think the visit would be more useful for the new drivers.

From my point of view as a signaller, trainee drivers paying a visit during their classroom training is a waste of time. It’s far more useful for them to pay a visit when they are learning their routes or refreshing their routes, when you can explain and demonstrate things to them.

Getting back to the main subject, we’ve problems in the past where multiple adjoining broadcasts have overriding each other and cancelled the broadcast and in general just using the contact signaller function works better.

 

[cin88]

Its often easier to just stop a driver and send "Contact Signaller" in order to pass on whatever instructions and info you have for them. The birth triggered broadcasts are a faf to set up and sometimes you need two or three takes to get an acceptable recording done, by which point you're often either in possession of new information about the state of the line or there's a driver pressing the SG button that will need to be given instructions.

Personally i'll just send the "Contact Signaller" message and let the driver in question get in touch when it's best for them unless it's an emergency or i've pre agreed a call back time in the case of anyone i've got stood around for a while.

 

[choochoochoo]

From my point of view as a signaller, trainee drivers paying a visit during their classroom training is a waste of time. It’s far more useful for them to pay a visit when they are learning their routes or refreshing their routes, when you can explain and demonstrate things to them.

Agreed. Visited a box during training school, but had no real questions to ask them as I didn’t know anything about my route yet.

It’s only when out route learning or driving a route that you sit and wonder 'why does the signaller keep doing this' ?

Sadly once you’re productive as a driver, they’d rather have you driving trains than visiting signal boxes.