Using existing fleets to achieve SouthEastern fleet replacement

[CFRAIL]

Moderator note: split from

How many 377s do Southern have? Could they be the answer with Southern getting a replacement fleet I wonder. Although I feel something along the 707 lines seems most likely.

 

[WizCastro197]

How many 377s do Southern have? Could they be the answer with Southern getting a replacement fleet I wonder. Although I feel something along the 707 lines seems most likely.

I am somewhat confused:

Southern aren't getting a replacement fleet at all? They are content with their current stock.

No 377s are going to Southeastern, in fact the plan is to withdraw 377/5s from Southeastern and give them to Southern instead.

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How many 377s do Southern have? Could they be the answer with Southern getting a replacement fleet I wonder. Although I feel something along the 707 lines seems most likely.

But in answer to your question: Southern have 214 Electrostars (377s) but none of them are going as all are needed as there was no replacement for the 455 withdrawal.

 

[bramling]

How many 377s do Southern have? Could they be the answer with Southern getting a replacement fleet I wonder. Although I feel something along the 707 lines seems most likely.

Whilst Southern seems to manage with a common design for metro and mainline services, I’m not sure this would work well on Southeastern - though granted the Networkers manage.

I’m not sure what other second hand stock there could be, unless Southeastern wanted to replace Networkers with SWR’s 455s!

 

[WizCastro197]

Whilst Southern seems to manage with a common design for metro and mainline services, I’m not sure this would work well on Southeastern - though granted the Networkers manage.

I’m not sure what other second hand stock there could be, unless Southeastern wanted to replace Networkers with SWR’s 455s!

I think that’s the point, there isn’t anything, but there has to be something that Southeastern are after otherwise they wouldn’t of released the tender. Of course if I am not getting them mixed up, the second hand tender said a number of options could be considered to 350/1s could certainly be on the cards.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whilst Southern seems to manage with a common design for metro and mainline services, I’m not sure this would work well on Southeastern - though granted the Networkers manage.

Would you not say that Southern and Southeastern are both similar in terms of both Metro and Mainline routes though, regarding journey times, frequencies (pre-Southern's mass axing anyway) and passenger loadings?

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350/1s could certainly be on the cards.

They absolutely could not be. 350/3, 350/4 and 730 is not sufficient for London Northwestern Railway long term, and especially not now that the number of LNR 730s is being reduced in favour of more Cross City ones.

 

[nw1]

Tender placed for 350-570 20m vehicles or equivalent, with an option for 70 more; "interiors suitable for metro & mainline operation", "inclusion of options for traction batteries with capability for operation in depots and sidings without the need for external power supply, and with the capability to operate on the main line where power supply is not available due to isolations or incidents, or for non-electrified line sections of up to 20 miles"

And Maintenance Support for New Rolling Stock for Southeastern [Tender Notice]

The overall objective of this procurement is cost reduction and cost avoidance, through securing the... A Tender Notice by SE Trains.

bidstats.uk

The numbers look like it's about right for disposing of most or all of the Networker fleet, but not much else.

I hope the Networkers go elsewhere if they don't want them. Southern and SWR have stock shortage problems, and the Networkers are still under 30 years old.

We certainly should not be disposing of stock under 35 years old in the current climate of stock shortage. The Networkers for example are around 10 years newer than the 455s, which are still going.

 

[WizCastro197]

Would you not say that Southern and Southeastern are both similar in terms of both Metro and Mainline routes though, regarding journey times, frequencies (pre-Southern's mass axing anyway) and passenger loadings?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==


They absolutely could not be. 350/3, 350/4 and 730 is not sufficient for London Northwestern Railway long term, and especially not now that the number of LNR 730s is being reduced in favour of more Cross City ones.

Alright thanks. I didn’t think of the impact on the other side of things.

Well there really isn’t anything.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I hope the Networkers go elsewhere if they don't want them. Southern and SWR have stock shortage problems, and the Networkers are still under 30 years old.

We certainly should not be disposing of stock under 35 years old in the current climate of stock shortage. The Networkers for example are around 10 years newer than the 455s, which are still going.

Southern have enough to work with the current demand, and more so when the 377/5s arrive. SWR will not have stock shortage problems in three/four years, which is roughly when the Networker replacement fleet would start to enter service en-masse. By then, they will also be thirty-five, and that's not anything near too young to be scrapped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Alright thanks. I didn’t think of the impact on the other side of things.

Unless of course you mixed up 350/1 and 350/2, and forgot that 350/2 is what is being dumped (it's AC only btw), not the other. LNR have the dual-voltage capable 350/1s in their long term fleet plan.

 

[Energy]

I hope the Networkers go elsewhere if they don't want them. Southern and SWR have stock shortage problems, and the Networkers are still under 30 years old.

Its less about age and more about condition. The 508s are well maintained by Merseyside so have lasted long, the networkers haven't had the same level of care.

 

[brad465]

I hope the Networkers go elsewhere if they don't want them. Southern and SWR have stock shortage problems, and the Networkers are still under 30 years old.

We certainly should not be disposing of stock under 35 years old in the current climate of stock shortage. The Networkers for example are around 10 years newer than the 455s, which are still going.

Nice as it would be I don't see anywhere else wanting them. Not only is there the maintenance cost issue, but signalling system interference and DOO alterations will need doing for anywhere outside their cleared operating range, evidenced by the fairly common sight of a red cross sign with "Networker" underneath it in locations where Southern and Southeastern can interchange tracks.

 

[bramling]

Would you not say that Southern and Southeastern are both similar in terms of both Metro and Mainline routes though, regarding journey times, frequencies (pre-Southern's mass axing anyway) and passenger loadings?

Journey times and frequencies yes, however I’d say Southeastern metro is more intense in terms of passenger loadings, or at least it was pre-Covid.

 

[Stephen42]

I think that’s the point, there isn’t anything, but there has to be something that Southeastern are after otherwise they wouldn’t of released the tender. Of course if I am not getting them mixed up, the second hand tender said a number of options could be considered to 350/1s could certainly be on the cards.

As Southeastern is now considered public sector it has to publicly tender for large value contracts. The business case for any new stock is going to be heavily scrutinised by DfT/treasury. I doubt they think anyone has 350 vehicles down the back of the sofa, but if the business case hasn't investigated possibilities involving existing stock they could easily be pushed back to do it delaying everything a year.

Extremely hypothetically SWR could offer their 701s altering formations to replace Southeastern Networkers and one of class 376 or 707. SWR could then order/lease a smaller number of vehicles to match their post pandemic timetables saving them money. Southeastern get cheaper than new build saving money too. Southeastern wouldn't know what price SWR would offer until they put out the tender as direct approaches are likely frowned upon by procurement. Doubt it would work for many reasons but Southeastern would want to show they've considered all options rather than only going after brand new stock.

The cost benefit analysis would then be done between the new stock and keeping the Networkers. This might include options for a smaller new stock build keeping the least problematic Networkers for some routes using the remainder as part donors.

I hope the Networkers go elsewhere if they don't want them. Southern and SWR have stock shortage problems, and the Networkers are still under 30 years old.

We certainly should not be disposing of stock under 35 years old in the current climate of stock shortage. The Networkers for example are around 10 years newer than the 455s, which are still going.

The replacement is for 2027 when the Networkers would be at least 33 years old with many over 35 years. There would be a limit to how much longer they could go on for even if they weren't concerns over their condition.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think that’s the point, there isn’t anything, but there has to be something that Southeastern are after otherwise they wouldn’t of released the tender. Of course if I am not getting them mixed up, the second hand tender said a number of options could be considered to 350/1s could certainly be on the cards.

I agree there has to be something second-hand Southeastern are after, but it is hard to think of what (specifically along the higher number of carriages listed!)

This is what seems to be available:
- 350/2s (AC only, but I read somewhere that they should be easy to make dual-voltage)
- 379s (AC only, not nearly enough, so rather unlikely)
- ex-SWR fleets if SWR/DfT decide SWR has too many trains when all 701s enter service, leading them to return some other units

Is there anything else that could (partially) meet the brief?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree there has to be something second-hand Southeastern are after, but it is hard to think of what (specifically along the higher number of carriages listed!)

This is what seems to be available:
- 350/2s (AC only, but I read somewhere that they should be easy to make dual-voltage)
- 379s (AC only, not nearly enough, so rather unlikely)
- ex-SWR fleets if SWR/DfT decide SWR has too many trains when all 701s enter service, leading them to return some other units

Is there anything else that could (partially) meet the brief?

You know there’s only seven units between the fleet sizes don’t you?

 

[Trainbike46]

You know there’s only seven units between the fleet sizes don’t you?

I do, I should have added not enough to the 350/2s as well!

 

[JonathanH]

Is there anything else that could (partially) meet the brief?

30 10-car and 30 5-car 701s released from SWR by adapting the 350/2 fleet for SWR operation.

 

[WizCastro197]

30 10-car and 30 5-car 701s released from SWR by adapting the 350/2 fleet for SWR operation.

How different do 350s and 450s differ in terms of driver training or overall driving? Are you aware by any chance?

If there was no differences then 350s could go through modifications providing there is sufficient money for that and enter service very quickly and gradually get taken out for refurbishment/Painting/vinyling.

When the 350s covered for Southern, was there copious amounts of driver training? I would’ve been too young to remember.

 

[43096]

30 10-car and 30 5-car 701s released from SWR by adapting the 350/2 fleet for SWR operation.

They would need to do something about door cycle times on the Desiros - they’re terrible. Historically, SWT preferred to sub a pair of 458s on main line suburban work if they were short of 455s, for that reason.

 

[Trainbike46]

30 10-car and 30 5-car 701s released from SWR by adapting the 350/2 fleet for SWR operation.

That would be the second time recently that stock ordered for SWR/SWT ends up moving to Southeastern at a really young age

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

30 10-car and 30 5-car 701s released from SWR by adapting the 350/2 fleet for SWR operation.

450 carriages for 148, and 148 which will lose time on several 701 routes due to door cycles.

 

[WizCastro197]

450 carriages for 148, and 148 which will lose time on several 701 routes due to door cycles.

Despite the door cycles, could 350/2s go to SWR (completely on the basis that there is funds to modify to DC), could all 350/2s go to SWR so there is 37 there, then half of 701s to SWR as well so SWR would have 37 add 45 units which would replace 455s in full. Then could the remaining 701s go to Southeastern? Doesn’t it fill the requirement considering Soitheastern want 350+ units and 45 701s give 375?

 

[jackot]

Despite the door cycles, could 350/2s go to SWR (completely on the basis that there is funds to modify to DC), could all 350/2s go to SWR so there is 37 there, then half of 701s to SWR as well so SWR would have 37 add 45 units which would replace 455s in full. Then could the remaining 701s go to Southeastern? Doesn’t it fill the requirement considering Soitheastern want 350+ units and 45 701s give 375?

That would be a somewhat better than giving the 350s to Southeastern, as SWR already operate tonnes of Desiros, although still not ideal by any means with the atrocious door cycle times as others have mentioned. I still feel like the tender should really look to replace all the Networkers though, as 375 units is still a few hundred of that number.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Despite the door cycles, could 350/2s go to SWR (completely on the basis that there is funds to modify to DC), could all 350/2s go to SWR so there is 37 there, then half of 701s to SWR as well so SWR would have 37 add 45 units which would replace 455s in full. Then could the remaining 701s go to Southeastern? Doesn’t it fill the requirement considering Soitheastern want 350+ units and 45 701s give 375?

Most 701s are ten carriage trains.
So SWR would be getting 37 4 carriage trains instead of 45 10 carriage trains, which just doesn’t really work.

8 carriage formations is also a physical max for 4 car trains on most Metro routes.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Could 701's be used on Southeastern metro? Would they be suitable? Would SE drivers accept them?

 

[Verulamius]

Can the 701s be reformed into 4 and 6 car units?

 

[cactustwirly]

Most 701s are ten carriage trains.
So SWR would be getting 37 4 carriage trains instead of 45 10 carriage trains, which just doesn’t really work.

8 carriage formations is also a physical max for 4 car trains on most Metro routes.

You couldn't stick them on Reading and Windsor services, which were operated by 8 car 450s for a long time

 

[theageofthetra]

Ten years ago, when I was still working, there was a Tun Wells stopper from CHX p6 formed from 3x 465/9 immediately before my 17:39 12 car Kent Coast semi from the same platform. P6 was the only platform where you could enter or alight from all doors on 375s or 465s.

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Hitachi 395s spend most of their time running 3rd tail.

No definitely only 1-3 for 12 car Networkers. New boards have sprung up recently on all the other buffer stops stating 10 car max Networkers.

 

[theageofthetra]

Completely pie in the sky but how about Thameslinks 700's? Reduced length units for Orpington - Victoria & Dartford - Vic. Full length units for everything else. SDO solves the Charing Cross, Woolwich Dockyard issues. All have in cab monitors so cutting cost at manual dispatch stations.

Quick conversion course from 707's, and drivers at Orpington who used to sign them anyway.


Thameslink then get new stock far better suited to their longer distance services.

 

[Mikey C]

The big question is whether the 701s will be ready for service in time to replace the Networkers

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The big question is whether the 701s will be ready for service in time to replace the Networkers

And whether or not there is sufficient siding/depot space to store them on SE-land until testing (by SE crew) is complete