Vaccine passports or masks?

[Eyersey468]

Another vote for neither, vaccine passports go against our freedoms and civil liberties and are a complete waste of time and standard masks are a placebo only.

 

[island]

Masks. I don't have a major problem with masks, but vaccine passports are an severe restriction on liberty if required for things as fundamental as shops, banks, and buses, which is happening in some countries. Not so fussed about large events such as concerts, but to apply vaccine passports to normal life means it is impossible for those who are unvaccinated to do everyday activities.

Which countries require vaccine passes to go to food shops, to banks, or on buses?

 

[nw1]

Which countries require vaccine passes to go to food shops, to banks, or on buses?

I have heard that some countries in mainland Europe apparently require them, or tests, for non-food shops, banks and buses - not 100% sure of which and don't want to make any incorrect statements - but specifically I do recall Lithuania needing them even for supermarkets.

 

[infobleep]

Flimsy loose fitting masks are ineffective.

They are not designed to filter aerosol particles, which are now understood to be a key source of transmission (it was originally thought to be larger droplets responsible for transmission).

The aerosol particles which can carry virus particles are absolutely tiny; far smaller than the holes in standard masks and can pass through the masks themselves as well as through the gaps where masks are loosely worn.

In contrast, FFP3 masks, when worn correctly with a tight fit, were found to be pretty much 100% effective against transmission. FFP2 are not quite as good but not far off.

Standard masks are nothing more than a placebo; they are only good for virtue signalling purposes.

I recently travelled to a country that mandates (any old) mask be worn; I wore a cloth sports mask in order to comply with the law. The holes in these masks are even larger than standard masks. It's purely a box ticking exercise, required by people who are far left/authoritarian/hysteric.


I thought it was only some places and that had since been relaxed?

It is only some places but this includes shops, trains, churches, restaurants and hotel shared spaces. It wasn't relaxed by 25 October, which was the day I left. Since then I don't know. I've not heard of it being relaxed though.

They also require proof of vaccine, covid or negative test to eat in restaurants or stay at hotels. This even includes in train buffet cars, even though you don't need it otherwise on the train. Also had to fill out a locator form for the train buffet but no such thing required otherwise, yet the same train!

Most places asked for proof but one or two didn't, although the staff were all wearing masks. I saw one person refused entry due to their proof not being of the right type. The restaurant owner basically said they would be in trouble if they let them in or something along those lines.

I wasn't aware of FFP3 masks. I haven't seen any in shops but I haven't looked too hard.

I do try to wear an FFP2 mask now, rather than cloth ones and try not to have holes but I'm not saying I am certain I get it right. I appreciate not everyone gets on with the wearing of masks, although I do.

 

[Butts]

Why? At least one can be mask exempt, vaccine passports goes against our freedoms

Illusory ?

I'll carry anything if it get's me access to somewhere I want to go or something I want to do !!

 

[Butts]

Are masks ineffective or is it the type of masks that many people wear in the UK that are ineffective?

In Germany, it is mandated in many places that you wear either an FFP2, N95 or KN95 mask. Cloth masks are not permitted in many places by law.

When I was in Dusseldorf the week before last no special masks were required, I just used a normal blue disposable job everywhere.

 

[nw1]

When I was in Dusseldorf the week before last no special masks were required, I just used a normal blue disposable job everywhere.

Special masks aren't a problem as long as a) they are readily available and b) if they are expensive, the government foots some of the bill.
Not sure about b), but a) doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. Maybe more so in Germany.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Illusory ?

I'll carry anything if it get's me access to somewhere I want to go or something I want to do !!

Within the law freedom isn’t conditional, I never needed a security blanket card to do anything before 2020 and no one should need on after Covid either, a passport isn’t about “controlling the virus” or “stopping the spread” since vaccinated people can still catch and get Covid, this is about the government controlling our lives on a whole different level which is sinister and discriminatory

 

[Butts]

Within the law freedom isn’t conditional, I never needed a security blanket card to do anything before 2020 and no one should need on after Covid either, a passport isn’t about “controlling the virus” or “stopping the spread” since vaccinated people can still catch and get Covid, this is about the government controlling our lives on a whole different level which is sinister and discriminatory

Wake up and smell the coffee - they already do !!

Passports, Driving Licences, NI and Tax records - what difference does another bit of paper make ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is this something we should be concerned about? I know I should not believe everything that is said on twitter, but this does seem a bit worrying if it is true.

https://twitter.com/Mark91870806/status/1455597094501294086?s=20

No source named, tweeter has lots of numbers after their username, follow/following numbers almost equal, ignore.

Wake up and smell the coffee - they already do !!

Passports, Driving Licences, NI and Tax records - what difference does another bit of paper make ?

I'm inclined to agree that vaccine passports aren't a disaster for civil liberties. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem to be a particularly worthwhile intervention for the government to make in terms of efficacy. However, I'm quite bored of anti-vaxxers and vax-hesitants now and can't be bothered fighting their corner because many of them have simply burnt through all the patience I'm prepared to extend.

Vaccine mandates are big in America. United Airlines recently installed a vaccine mandate, and all but a few hundred of their 67,000 employees have now been vaccinated. Time for the government to apply a bit of squeeze this side of the pond. Few people really want to take their resistance to vaccines to the point of impoverishment. Having been in the US for several weeks and having seen the news, and talked to real people about this, it seems most people in the Land of the Free just can't be arsed entertaining vax-hesitants and anti-vaxxers any more. They have lost.

 

[Cdd89]

Time for the government to apply a bit of squeeze this side of the pond. Few people really want to take their resistance to vaccines to the point of impoverishment.

While I agree that the Covid vulnerable/susceptible need to be nudged into vaccination, one problem is that the people who most need the nudging — those unvaccinated over 60 — are most likely to be retired, or to be unfussed about taking early retirement. Our vaccination rates in the age groups that matter are much higher than those in the US, and that is from entirely voluntary uptake. If vaccine mandates get lots more 18-30yo’s vaccinated, but deter the remaining unvaccinated 60-80yo’s, is that a win? I don’t think it is.

I also think it would be an easier sell if we recognised immunity, at least in some form — show a positive antibody test or positive covid test and you can have it recorded, it’ll last as long as a vaccine lasts (currently indefinite). That’s something the pro-immunity side can do to be reasonable.

 

[takno]

No source named, tweeter has lots of numbers after their username, follow/following numbers almost equal, ignore.


I'm inclined to agree that vaccine passports aren't a disaster for civil liberties. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem to be a particularly worthwhile intervention for the government to make in terms of efficacy. However, I'm quite bored of anti-vaxxers and vax-hesitants now and can't be bothered fighting their corner because many of them have simply burnt through all the patience I'm prepared to extend.

Vaccine mandates are big in America. United Airlines recently installed a vaccine mandate, and all but a few hundred of their 67,000 employees have now been vaccinated. Time for the government to apply a bit of squeeze this side of the pond. Few people really want to take their resistance to vaccines to the point of impoverishment. Having been in the US for several weeks and having seen the news, and talked to real people about this, it seems most people in the Land of the Free just can't be arsed entertaining vax-hesitants and anti-vaxxers any more. They have lost.

I'm not entertaining anybody. I'm fully vaxed, I just don't think it's appropriate for anything other than appropriate medical personnel to need to know that.

FWIW I'm also not especially interested in what the colossal mass of idiots across the pond are up, or how they think or feel about all of this. They seem to have managed to simultaneously overreact and under-perform on their Covid response throughout, and I don't think the rest of the world has anything much to learn from them on that.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not entertaining anybody. I'm fully vaxed, I just don't think it's appropriate for anything other than appropriate medical personnel to need to know that.

You'll get a shock if you ever travel then, because you'll need to show proof to get into many countries.

FWIW I'm also not especially interested in what the colossal mass of idiots across the pond are up, or how they think or feel about all of this. They seem to have managed to simultaneously overreact and under-perform on their Covid response throughout, and I don't think the rest of the world has anything much to learn from them on that.

I think the world could learn quite a bit about corporate vaccine mandates as a way of simply getting people vaccinated, particularly in light of majority support for such measures in a country which has traditionally prized individual liberty.

I'm not convinced vaccine mandates are a useful *public health measure* but the point is we have political systems which demand a pretext for taking risks with reopening. One of the downsides of living in a Western democracy is that you have to abide by the political wishes of people who aren't Online All The Time.

One of the major lessons Covid has taught us is that Western liberalism has serious limitations which we are unprepared to confront or accept even when faced with an emergent, novel crisis. I think many people are bored with vax-hesitants and I rather think vaccine passports would be a popular measure. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest, give me a good reason why should I care about the by-choice unvaccinated.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Wake up and smell the coffee - they already do !!

Passports, Driving Licences, NI and Tax records - what difference does another bit of paper make ?

Because this is ID cards through the back door, if you cannot see this then you are very naive.

And the comparisons you’ve made are utterly false, theres a big, big difference between a driver’s license and a vaccine passport, one is a choice the other is blackmail to get medical treatment one may not even need or else you can’t enjoy the same freedoms as you did in 2019 and before.

Maybe you should wake up and smell the coffee….

You'll get a shock if you ever travel then, because you'll need to show proof to get into many countries.


I think the world could learn quite a bit about corporate vaccine mandates as a way of simply getting people vaccinated, particularly in light of majority support for such measures in a country which has traditionally prized individual liberty.

I'm not convinced vaccine mandates are a useful *public health measure* but the point is we have political systems which demand a pretext for taking risks with reopening. One of the downsides of living in a Western democracy is that you have to abide by the political wishes of people who aren't Online All The Time.

One of the major lessons Covid has taught us is that Western liberalism has serious limitations which we are unprepared to confront or accept even when faced with an emergent, novel crisis. I think many people are bored with vax-hesitants and I rather think vaccine passports would be a popular measure. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest, give me a good reason why should I care about the by-choice unvaccinated.

Popular with whom? The I’m alright Jacks who fail or choose not to understand that our basic freedoms are at threat at being taken away all because of a respiratory virus with a 99% survival rate?

Where does this end? One can’t get. Their groceries if you’re not jabbed?

 

[AlterEgo]

Popular with whom? The I’m alright Jacks who fail or choose not to understand that our basic freedoms are at threat at being taken away all because of a respiratory virus with a 99% survival rate?

I don't think your basic freedoms are under threat, especially as you are vaccinated.

Where does this end? One can’t get. Their groceries if you’re not jabbed?

Most people just don't care any more and find the hysteria tedious, and mostly driven by Very Online People trying hard to have an argument.

I'm bored of it now. Don't care if I have a vaccine passport, I did the thing and got my vax. It was an extremely low risk intervention for me to take, akin to maybe driving my car for 100 miles. If other people want to spend all day on Google to find reasons to oppose it then be my guest; seems like they spend too long indoors anyway AFAICT.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think your basic freedoms are under threat, especially as you are vaccinated.


Most people just don't care any more and find the hysteria tedious, and mostly driven by Very Online People trying hard to have an argument.

I'm bored of it now. Don't care if I have a vaccine passport, I did the thing and got my vax. It was an extremely low risk intervention for me to take, akin to maybe driving my car for 100 miles. If other people want to spend all day on Google to find reasons to oppose it then be my guest; seems like they spend too long indoors anyway AFAICT.

Conditions of being fully vaccinated include having boosters like in Isreal soon, and I won’t be having those, I also believe in personal freedoms and choices and I don’t believe in coercion.

There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to say that passports will stop the spread, all you’ll get is a bunch a vaccinated people in a room spreading it all over the place, it’s just a little security blanket for the I’m alright Jack’s and Jackie’s who want to feel superior

 

[Bikeman78]

Is this something we should be concerned about? I know I should not believe everything that is said on twitter, but this does seem a bit worrying if it is true.

https://twitter.com/Mark91870806/status/1455597094501294086?s=20

I wouldn't worry it about it. Yesterday I forgot my stupid mask. I went into a shop and a bank. No one cared. Apart from the three staff there was no one else in the bank anyway. Meanwhile all the surrounding bars and restaurants, where you don't need a mask, were full of people. It's a complete farce. The fact that Wales is doing worse than England, despite more restrictions, must be a big clue that it's all pointless.

 

[Cdd89]

Conditions of being fully vaccinated include having boosters like in Isreal soon, and I won’t be having those, I also believe in personal freedoms and choices and I don’t believe in coercion.

I don’t want boosters every six months, and I won’t be rushing to get mine (unless something changes with regard to protection against severe outcomes); but if society (or a country I wish to go to) determines that that is the price of (otherwise) normality, and would impose restrictions on me if I don’t, then I’ll have them.

I suspect this may be a more common view than you give credit for.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t want boosters every six months, and I won’t be rushing to get mine (unless something changes with regard to protection against severe outcomes); but if society (or countries I particularly wish to go to) determines that that is the price of (otherwise) normality, and impose restrictions on me if I don’t, then I’ll have them.

I suspect this may be a more common view than you give credit for.

It is very common. I fundamentally share your viewpoint in Post 71, as a matter of principle, about immunity proof etc, and still remain sceptical that vaccine passports are a proportional step.

Nonetheless, if I am faced with a choice between having a vaccine (plus booster) and having a relatively normal existence otherwise, you can be sure where my preferences will fall.

I have been in the US for a couple of weeks now and have been surprised at how Very Normal everything is. Some states have masks, some don't. People by and large go by the rules wherever I have been. In Indianapolis, a Democrat-run, liberal city, there is no mask mandate, and I saw perhaps two masks in 24 hours there. People just take the path of least resistance. In New York, masks are mandatory, and, guess what, everyone wears one. You hear terrific, overblown news stories from the media about how the place is a madhouse but there are 320 million people in the US and there are naturally more nutters at both extremes.

The path of least resistance for almost everyone in the UK is to just go by the rules and care very little for people who decide, in their personal wisdom, not to get vaccinated.

Conditions of being fully vaccinated include having boosters like in Isreal soon, and I won’t be having those

Can't imagine why you'd be fully vaccinated but object to a booster but you have taken the path of most resistance to reason since the start of the vaccine rollout anyway and you cannot expect anyone else to care.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think your basic freedoms are under threat, especially as you are vaccinated.


Most people just don't care any more and find the hysteria tedious, and mostly driven by Very Online People trying hard to have an argument.

I'm bored of it now. Don't care if I have a vaccine passport, I did the thing and got my vax. It was an extremely low risk intervention for me to take, akin to maybe driving my car for 100 miles. If other people want to spend all day on Google to find reasons to oppose it then be my guest; seems like they spend too long indoors anyway AFAICT.

I'd have thought that most people don't care whether or not others have been vaccinated. I certainly don't. If the vaccine works then what difference does it make what others choose to do? I have no interest in "saving the NHS." It was broken long before Covid and the idea that vaccine passports will make any difference is just laughable. Indeed mandatory vaccination could make the problem worse. Almost 10% of NHS staff are not vaccinated. If they all walk out that's not really going to help the crisis is it?

I don’t want boosters every six months, and I won’t be rushing to get mine (unless something changes with regard to protection against severe outcomes); but if society (or a country I wish to go to) determines that that is the price of (otherwise) normality, and would impose restrictions on me if I don’t, then I’ll have them.

I suspect this may be a more common view than you give credit for.

How much are these boosters every six months going to cost the taxpayer? Can't help thinking that recruiting and training more doctors/nurses to deal with the ever growing backlog of other problems would be better.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It is very common. I fundamentally share your viewpoint in Post 71, as a matter of principle, about immunity proof etc, and still remain sceptical that vaccine passports are a proportional step.

Nonetheless, if I am faced with a choice between having a vaccine (plus booster) and having a relatively normal existence otherwise, you can be sure where my preferences will fall.

I have been in the US for a couple of weeks now and have been surprised at how Very Normal everything is. Some states have masks, some don't. People by and large go by the rules wherever I have been. In Indianapolis, a Democrat-run, liberal city, there is no mask mandate, and I saw perhaps two masks in 24 hours there. People just take the path of least resistance. In New York, masks are mandatory, and, guess what, everyone wears one. You hear terrific, overblown news stories from the media about how the place is a madhouse but there are 320 million people in the US and there are naturally more nutters at both extremes.

The path of least resistance for almost everyone in the UK is to just go by the rules and care very little for people who decide, in their personal wisdom, not to get vaccinated.


Can't imagine why you'd be fully vaccinated but object to a booster but you have taken the path of most resistance to reason since the start of the vaccine rollout anyway and you cannot expect anyone else to care.

Why would anyone need a booster at all? It’s Covid not the plague, people have really blown this out of proportion, have you not heard of the high survival rate Covid has?

 

[greyman42]

Wake up and smell the coffee - they already do !!

Passports, Driving Licences, NI and Tax records - what difference does another bit of paper make ?

There is no requirement to carry any of them around with you in a normal day. There will be with vaccine passports which will achieve nothing.

 

[takno]

It is very common. I fundamentally share your viewpoint in Post 71, as a matter of principle, about immunity proof etc, and still remain sceptical that vaccine passports are a proportional step.

Nonetheless, if I am faced with a choice between having a vaccine (plus booster) and having a relatively normal existence otherwise, you can be sure where my preferences will fall.

I have been in the US for a couple of weeks now and have been surprised at how Very Normal everything is. Some states have masks, some don't. People by and large go by the rules wherever I have been. In Indianapolis, a Democrat-run, liberal city, there is no mask mandate, and I saw perhaps two masks in 24 hours there. People just take the path of least resistance. In New York, masks are mandatory, and, guess what, everyone wears one. You hear terrific, overblown news stories from the media about how the place is a madhouse but there are 320 million people in the US and there are naturally more nutters at both extremes.

The path of least resistance for almost everyone in the UK is to just go by the rules and care very little for people who decide, in their personal wisdom, not to get vaccinated.


Can't imagine why you'd be fully vaccinated but object to a booster but you have taken the path of most resistance to reason since the start of the vaccine rollout anyway and you cannot expect anyone else to care.

You seem weirdly determined that other people shouldn't hold an opinion because the majority of people aren't interested in it. This is a rail forum, it's a given to the rest of us that most people in the country aren't reading the forum or waiting with bated breath to see what those of us on here think. Nobody here is actually labouring under that delusion. You're fighting a straw man for no really apparent reason.

Worse, you appear to basing your entire argument on what the subset of people who are actively out and about in a completely different country think, and even within that you're heavily biasing it to what people catching flights think. An average American, much like an average British person, doesn't fly at all in any given year.

 

[greyman42]

I think work from home should always be a choice, not enforced.

Surely it should be up to the company that pays your wages and that includes if they tell you they want you back in the office on Monday. If someone does not like it they can always hand their notice in.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd have thought that most people don't care whether or not others have been vaccinated. I certainly don't. If the vaccine works then what difference does it make what others choose to do? I have no interest in "saving the NHS." It was broken long before Covid and the idea that vaccine passports will make any difference is just laughable. Indeed mandatory vaccination could make the problem worse.

Most people really do not care if an individual is vaccinated or not, correct. I have no real interest in whether my United flight crew tomorrow are vaccinated, nor whether on my return, the guy serving me coffee at my local cafe is vaccinated. The point is, the sheer lack of interest will make the majority take the path of least resistance, which is to accept whichever pretext is available for a normal life again.

Almost 10% of NHS staff are not vaccinated. If they all walk out that's not really going to help the crisis is it?

They aren't all going to walk out. Most of them have nowhere else to work. In the USA, corporate vaccine mandates are very, very effective at driving up vaccine rates among a workforce.

You seem weirdly determined that other people shouldn't hold an opinion because the majority of people aren't interested in it.

I have never once suggested that people shouldn't have an opinion because others aren't interested in it. You have manufactured that assumption yourself. Please point out where I suggested that people shouldn't hold an opinion. I have merely expressed my indifference to supporting those opinions any longer.

This is a rail forum, it's a given to the rest of us that most people in the country aren't reading the forum or waiting with bated breath to see what those of us on here think. Nobody here is actually labouring under that delusion. You're fighting a straw man for no really apparent reason.

What is the straw man you think I am fighting against? Don't you agree most people in the UK will simply do whatever is necessary to have a normal existence?

Worse, you appear to basing your entire argument on what the subset of people who are actively out and about in a completely different country think, and even within that you're heavily biasing it to what people catching flights think. An average American, much like an average British person, doesn't fly at all in any given year.

No, I'm talking about going around the country, talking to people not just on planes or in airports, but in bars, restaurants, hotels, staying with friends. I've yet to find anyone who thinks the corporate vaccine mandates are a bad idea; people are either very enthusiastic or at worst apathetic about the idea. You can see the results for yourself: the administration has mandated vaccines for companies over 100 people by the start of next year. This isn't an argument as to whether this is wise or not, in the whole, but rather that, even in a land which prizes individual liberty far higher than the UK, it can "just happen".

In any case, I don't think my view, based on a person who lives in the UK but with dozens of friends in the US (of all political stripes!), and actually visiting the US during the pandemic, and seeing for myself how people actually deal with widely varying rules, is a less valid viewpoint than "I am not interested. Americans are idiots. I have been reading the news".

Go around Democrat-run Indianapolis! You'd think any Democrat city would be fully masked, even if the state of Indiana says there is no mandate. After all, aren't Democrats rabid maskers? Isn't that what we've all read in the news and on Twitter? As it happens, nobody wears one in the city. Once you get to the airport at Indianapolis, the rules are you have to be 100% masked, and guess what - everyone wears a mask. People follow the local rules because they are of neglible cost to follow, and the vast majority will go with the flow because that is the path to an easier life.

I tend to view the UK population as being also very likely - if not more likely - to take the path of least resistance, as it has done consistently since the start of the pandemic. Many of us, me included, thought lockdown could not happen, masks could not happen - not in Britain! Turns out, most people take the path of compliance, and that I am afraid is a view completely grounded in reality.

Why would anyone need a booster at all? It’s Covid not the plague, people have really blown this out of proportion, have you not heard of the high survival rate Covid has?

Don't get one then. I am not bothered personally if you do or not, but I am also not bothered whether the government makes your life more difficult and will not support any of your arguments if they come at any cost to me whatsoever.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Most people really do not care if an individual is vaccinated or not, correct. I have no real interest in whether my United flight crew tomorrow are vaccinated, nor whether on my return, the guy serving me coffee at my local cafe is vaccinated. The point is, the sheer lack of interest will make the majority take the path of least resistance, which is to accept whichever pretext is available for a normal life again.


They aren't all going to walk out. Most of them have nowhere else to work. In the USA, corporate vaccine mandates are very, very effective at driving up vaccine rates among a workforce.


I have never once suggested that people shouldn't have an opinion because others aren't interested in it. You have manufactured that assumption yourself. Please point out where I suggested that people shouldn't hold an opinion. I have merely expressed my indifference to supporting those opinions any longer.


What is the straw man you think I am fighting against? Don't you agree most people in the UK will simply do whatever is necessary to have a normal existence?


No, I'm talking about going around the country, talking to people not just on planes or in airports, but in bars, restaurants, hotels, staying with friends. I've yet to find anyone who thinks the corporate vaccine mandates are a bad idea; people are either very enthusiastic or at worst apathetic about the idea. You can see the results for yourself: the administration has mandated vaccines for companies over 100 people by the start of next year. This isn't an argument as to whether this is wise or not, in the whole, but rather that, even in a land which prizes individual liberty far higher than the UK, it can "just happen".

In any case, I don't think my view, based on a person who lives in the UK but with dozens of friends in the US (of all political stripes!), and actually visiting the US during the pandemic, and seeing for myself how people actually deal with widely varying rules, is a less valid viewpoint than "I am not interested. Americans are idiots. I have been reading the news".

Go around Democrat-run Indianapolis! You'd think any Democrat city would be fully masked, even if the state of Indiana says there is no mandate. After all, aren't Democrats rabid maskers? Isn't that what we've all read in the news and on Twitter? As it happens, nobody wears one in the city. Once you get to the airport at Indianapolis, the rules are you have to be 100% masked, and guess what - everyone wears a mask. People follow the local rules because they are of neglible cost to follow, and the vast majority will go with the flow because that is the path to an easier life.

I tend to view the UK population as being also very likely - if not more likely - to take the path of least resistance, as it has done consistently since the start of the pandemic. Many of us, me included, thought lockdown could not happen, masks could not happen - not in Britain! Turns out, most people take the path of compliance, and that I am afraid is a view completely grounded in reality.


Don't get one then. I am not bothered personally if you do or not, but I am also not bothered whether the government makes your life more difficult and will not support any of your arguments if they come at any cost to me whatsoever.

Go on any TfL service and you’ll find mask usage is around 40% at best, and you’re right people are bored of covid but you’re wrong in suggesting no one cares about a two tier society which you’ve made very clear you don’t care with your “I’m alright”attitude, contrary to your incorrect belief but most people are bored and pretty disgusted at imposing restrictions on those who choose what to do with their own bodies as they will, I hope your prepared for the staff shortages in the NHS and I certainly hope you didn’t clap for them last year either.

 

[greyman42]

Most people really do not care if an individual is vaccinated or not, correct. I have no real interest in whether my United flight crew tomorrow are vaccinated, nor whether on my return, the guy serving me coffee at my local cafe is vaccinated. The point is, the sheer lack of interest will make the majority take the path of least resistance, which is to accept whichever pretext is available for a normal life again.

Normal life does not include masks or vaccine passports.

 

[Cdd89]

Normal life does not include masks or vaccine passports.

I agree that neither are normal.

But vaccine passports are much more compatible with normal life than masks (which is why I am always surprised that they seem to be the more politically controversial intervention!). There are genuine concerns about vaccine passports and where they will lead us, but they are mostly intellectual principles and also hypothetical; as opposed to something physically and constantly on your face affecting your breathing and ability to communicate.

 

[yorkie]

Go on any TfL service and you’ll find mask usage is around 40% at best, and you’re right people are bored of covid but you’re wrong in suggesting no one cares about a two tier society which you’ve made very clear you don’t care with your “I’m alright”attitude, contrary to your incorrect belief but most people are bored and pretty disgusted at imposing restrictions on those who choose what to do with their own bodies as they will, I hope your prepared for the staff shortages in the NHS and I certainly hope you didn’t clap for them last year either.

I don't think it is fair to criticise @AlterEgo's "attitude"; I think we need to be careful to read what he is actually saying.

I agree that neither are normal.

Agreed, with the exception that proof of vaccination is not unheard of for international travel.

But vaccine passports are much more compatible with normal life than masks (which is why I am always surprised that they seem to be the more politically controversial intervention!). There are genuine concerns about vaccine passports and where they will lead us, but they are mostly intellectual principles; as opposed to something physically and constantly on your face affecting your breathing and ability to communicate.

Agreed. The problems with mandatory vaccines are very different depending on whether you are talking about travel abroad, entry to a shop (not feasible in my opinion and very undesirable), or a term of employment.

I am prepared to put up with it for travel abroad. If my employer insisted on seeing my proof of vaccination, I would not mind providing it to them. Would I be prepared to show it to enter a shop? No way, but I do not believe there is any risk of that happening in the UK.

 

[Cdd89]

Proof of vaccination is not unheard of for international travel.

Proof of vaccination for international travel is often presented as allegorical to domestic vaccine passports, but they serve very different purposes.

The purpose of international travel vaccination is not to prevent spread and help prove someone is unlikely to have Covid (countries that care have tests for that). It's because by letting someone in (who they don't have to), they are on the hook for that person's emergency healthcare, at least in terms of capacity and opportunity cost; even if not financially.

It is thus logical not to allow entry to someone unvaccinated, even if they could magically prove beyond all doubt that they do not have the disease. They could contract it after arrival and require hospitalisation.

Personally I think the UK system is too lenient on unvaccinated people without residence rights (why let them in at all), and too harsh on unvaccinated people with residence rights (we're already on the hook for their healthcare, and they could have caught Covid in the UK). That would be in line with other countries such as the USA. But in practice it's probably a non-issue and I'm certainly not going to lose too much sleep over the current arrangements.

(This isn't intended to disagree with your point; it's just an opportunity to make a point that I don't think is widely recognised!)