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Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

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Gadget88

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So 54 million will get the vaccine offer as under 18 don’t get it. Those with allergies can’t take it and some others don’t take it maybe 20% maybe 5 million so what next?

*Vaccine passports? Would they allow a nasal spray as an alternative to travel? A negative COVID test? Or is it no jab no fly? Would it be every single country world wide?

*Would vaccine passports be forever like airport security or short term to see how the virus is?

*Lockdown has seen an increase of suicides and depression how would someone have any quality of life if they were banned from weddings pubs football and holidays. Effectively living in lockdown? Now would this be short term or forever?

*If the government don’t vaccinate everybody every year what then? What if it’s at risk groups only then someone unvaccinated is the same as someone who had the vaccine but the protection has expired?

*What exemptions would there be for vaccines to travel? Would it cover any mental health issues?

*Vaccine passports in development are digital what if you don’t have a smart phone? How do they know the passport is genuine if it’s paper?

*How would EU countries deal with 5 million barred Brits and possibly many more in Eu countries as I heard take up is low in France? Would it be the end of EU’s open borders? Are they going to stop cars crossing the border and have border checks?

*What do you do if you have 5 million who can’t take it for health reasons or other what do you do about the rapid increase of suicides with people who have nothing left and even banned from weddings? Two tier society?

or would better treatments possibly oral vaccines be the future or even single dose vaccines maybe better testing would this be the future and options will improve or are we stuck in a two jab every year society forever?


We need an open debate in society about this ..
 
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BJames

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Fundamentally, even Chris Whitty has said that there will need to come a point where a decision is made by politicians that the risk is acceptable for us to continue living our lives like we did before. This may not suit everyone (NHS will always want more restrictions for more protection; some people are enjoying the work from home culture etc) but those people will have to accept that Covid is still around. That point may come sooner than we were expecting with a successful vaccination rollout, but if the vaccines weren't successful we would at some point need to do this anyway. Lockdowns will not/cannot last forever.

In response to vaccination passports, this one is more difficult. While the government has hinted that they don't want this in this country, I wouldn't be that surprised if they became a condition of travel to some extent - either in the short term, or to avoid the need to quarantine on return, or possibly country specific (thinking Aus/NZ could want vaccination on entry, having pursued an elimination strategy - but they might not turn you away if you're willing to quarantine in a hotel at your own cost).

Those who cannot take it for health reasons - this is the aim of herd immunity, as in the risk for them of actually contracting the virus would be substantially reduced. Treatments are also still being researched by scientists, we may get some successful ones but it may take time.
 

Gadget88

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Fundamentally, even Chris Whitty has said that there will need to come a point where a decision is made by politicians that the risk is acceptable for us to continue living our lives like we did before. This may not suit everyone (NHS will always want more restrictions for more protection; some people are enjoying the work from home culture etc) but those people will have to accept that Covid is still around. That point may come sooner than we were expecting with a successful vaccination rollout, but if the vaccines weren't successful we would at some point need to do this anyway. Lockdowns will not/cannot last forever.

In response to vaccination passports, this one is more difficult. While the government has hinted that they don't want this in this country, I wouldn't be that surprised if they became a condition of travel to some extent - either in the short term, or to avoid the need to quarantine on return, or possibly country specific (thinking Aus/NZ could want vaccination on entry, having pursued an elimination strategy - but they might not turn you away if you're willing to quarantine in a hotel at your own cost).

Those who cannot take it for health reasons - this is the aim of herd immunity, as in the risk for them of actually contracting the virus would be substantially reduced. Treatments are also still being researched by scientists, we may get some successful ones but it may take time.
Cool do you think every country will ban people or places like NZ which have such low levels they want to keep it out? Do you think mental health will be covered in health reasons?

I fear they will make these jabs forced and will come to the house to jab you?
 
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Cdd89

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When (as is very likely) we discover that If you have the jab you are less dangerous to others (which is not proved yet) then I expect you won’t be able to work unless you are jabbed. The example here would be say a care home staff member.

If people are medically unable to take any vaccine then I expect they would still not be able to work in that field. As a comparison, if you are a surgeon and you have Hep. B or AIDS then tough you can’t be one. It’s in the GMC guidance you are not allowed to let your health put your patients at risk. I’d expect to see that applied more widely.

Whether that’s the right decision for society I make no comment on; it’s purely my prediction. As for whether something like the above is tantamount to making the vaccine mandatory, that’s a difficult question!
 

Gadget88

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When (as is very likely) we discover that If you have the jab you are less dangerous to others (which is not proved yet) then I expect you won’t be able to work unless you are jabbed. The example here would be say a care home staff member.

If people are medically unable to take any vaccine then I expect they would still not be able to work in that field. As a comparison, if you are a surgeon and you have Hep. B or AIDS then tough you can’t be one. It’s in the GMC guidance you are not allowed to let your health put your patients at risk. I’d expect to see that applied more widely.

Whether that’s the right decision for society I make no comment on; it’s purely my prediction. As for whether something like the above is tantamount to making the vaccine mandatory, that’s a difficult question!
Every job or just care homes?
 

Cdd89

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Every job or just care homes?
No idea! I was just postulating that it will become effectively mandatory for certain types of work even domestically. I really hope it doesn’t become mandatory for jobs where it has no relevance; I’d hate to live in that society.
 

brad465

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I remember Johnathan Ashworth (shadow Health Secretary) talking on Sky News last November, not long after the first vaccine discovery about whether mandatory vaccination will happen: he didn't believe it would, citing a time in the 19th century when they tried to bring it in, but it was counterproductive due to unrest over it and resultant lower uptakes. Whether the same mantra applies now remains to be seen, but anyone who despises conspiracy theorists should theoretically not support mandatory vaccination, on the grounds that its implementation gives fuel to the fire for conspiracies to be peddled.
 

Gadget88

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No idea! I was just postulating that it will become effectively mandatory for certain types of work even domestically. I really hope it doesn’t become mandatory for jobs where it has no relevance; I’d hate to live in that society.
I hope not I work in retail I am worried sick I will be sacked and won’t be able to pay the mortgage if I refuse this vaccine. I believe anything medical should be optional.
 

yorkie

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So 54 million will get the vaccine offer as under 18 don’t get it.
It's not yet certain if Under 18s will be offered a vaccine or not.

Those with allergies can’t take it and some others don’t take it maybe 20% maybe 5 million so what next?
I don't know what you are referring to here.

*Vaccine passports?
It really depends on what other countries do. Without a vaccine passport, some countries are going to mandate tests either before departure, or upon arrival, or both.

Would they allow a nasal spray as an alternative to travel? A negative COVID test? Or is it no jab no fly? Would it be every single country world wide?
I think it's unlikely there would be no provision for people who have not been vaccinated, but it depends on what each country decides to do.

*Would vaccine passports be forever like airport security or short term to see how the virus is?
Once a country reaches a high level of immunity in its population, there would no longer be a need for it.

*Lockdown has seen an increase of suicides and depression how would someone have any quality of life if they were banned from weddings pubs football and holidays. Effectively living in lockdown? Now would this be short term or forever?
We are not going to be in lockdowns this Summer. The population isn't going to stand for it and there is no need for it. See other threads.

*If the government don’t vaccinate everybody every year what then?
We don't yet know if the vaccine will last for decades or if it will become an annual or bi-annual jab.

What if it’s at risk groups only then someone unvaccinated is the same as someone who had the vaccine but the protection has expired?
I don't understand the question
*What exemptions would there be for vaccines to travel? Would it cover any mental health issues?
It would be up to each country to decide what restrictions they wish to impose.
*Vaccine passports in development are digital what if you don’t have a smart phone? How do they know the passport is genuine if it’s paper?
Israel's passports can be used via a smartphone application or interactive voice recognition or be printed out as a physical document. I do not know about any other countries or if any decisions have been taken

*How would EU countries deal with 5 million barred Brits and possibly many more in Eu countries as I heard take up is low in France? Would it be the end of EU’s open borders? Are they going to stop cars crossing the border and have border checks?
This is becoming quite fanciful. Last Summer I did a fair bit of walking in Geneva along the border with @Oscar and @Mag_seven at at any point we could have simply walked into France; it'll be the same this year I am sure.

*What do you do if you have 5 million who can’t take it for health reasons or other what do you do about the rapid increase of suicides with people who have nothing left and even banned from weddings? Two tier society?
They will be protected due to the fact others have had the vaccine; this is known as "herd immunity".

or would better treatments possibly oral vaccines be the future or even single dose vaccines maybe better testing would this be the future and options will improve or are we stuck in a two jab every year society forever?
See above.
We need an open debate in society about this ..
But you are getting very ahead of yourself and stating some things as if they are fact that are really not likely or are unknowns at this point.

I fear they will make these jabs forced and will come to the house to jab you?


I said it before and I'll say it again: This is not going to happen. See my post from October: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/would-you-take-the-vaccine.209707/page-4#post-4824442

No-one is going to force their way into your home to jab you.
 

Gadget88

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It's not yet certain if Under 18s will be offered a vaccine or not.


I don't know what you are referring to here.


It really depends on what other countries do. Without a vaccine passport, some countries are going to mandate tests either before departure, or upon arrival, or both.


I think it's unlikely there would be no provision for people who have not been vaccinated, but it depends on what each country decides to do.


Once a country reaches a high level of immunity in its population, there would no longer be a need for it.


We are not going to be in lockdowns this Summer. The population isn't going to stand for it and there is no need for it. See other threads.


We don't yet know if the vaccine will last for decades or if it will become an annual or bi-annual jab.


I don't understand the question

It would be up to each country to decide what restrictions they wish to impose.

Israel's passports can be used via a smartphone application or interactive voice recognition or be printed out as a physical document. I do not know about any other countries or if any decisions have been taken


This is becoming quite fanciful. Last Summer I did a fair bit of walking in Geneva along the border with @Oscar and @Mag_seven at at any point we could have simply walked into France; it'll be the same this year I am sure.


They will be protected due to the fact others have had the vaccine; this is known as "herd immunity".


See above.

But you are getting very ahead of yourself and stating some things as if they are fact that are really not likely or are unknowns at this point.




I said it before and I'll say it again: This is not going to happen. See my post from October: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/would-you-take-the-vaccine.209707/page-4#post-4824442
Thanks some wise words. You are right maybe once herd immunity is reached they won’t need it. That’s the thing I would be happy if testing was a second option to a vaccine. As testing will get quicker and simper a quick saliva test results instantly you could test yourself via Saliva daily. I just worry about my job or ever being able to travel again as there is so many unknowns right now.
 

yorkie

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Thanks some wise words. You are right maybe once herd immunity is reached they won’t need it. That’s the thing I would be happy if testing was a second option to a vaccine. As testing will get quicker and simper a quick saliva test results instantly you could test yourself via Saliva daily. I just worry about my job or ever being able to travel again as there is so many unknowns right now.
There is no guarantee we will reach herd immunity, but it does look a realistic prospect.

If full herd immunity is not reached, perhaps due to immunity not being as long-lasting as we hope, then it will likely reach endemic equilibrium, i.e. it would potentially become one of the regularly circulating respiratory viruses.
 

jumble

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When (as is very likely) we discover that If you have the jab you are less dangerous to others (which is not proved yet) then I expect you won’t be able to work unless you are jabbed. The example here would be say a care home staff member.

If people are medically unable to take any vaccine then I expect they would still not be able to work in that field. As a comparison, if you are a surgeon and you have Hep. B or AIDS then tough you can’t be one. It’s in the GMC guidance you are not allowed to let your health put your patients at risk. I’d expect to see that applied more widely.

Whether that’s the right decision for society I make no comment on; it’s purely my prediction. As for whether something like the above is tantamount to making the vaccine mandatory, that’s a difficult question!

It is a bit of a stretch to compare Surgeons with Care home staff
Surgeons are regulated Care home staff are not.
My understanding is that Practice Nurses who are regulated by the RCN are allowed to do most of their job even if they are unable have the HepB Vaccine
They just need to avoid taking bloods
The first time a long standing care worker with more than 2 years service takes a business to a tribunal because they have been dismissed for not taking a vaccine that they claim to be allergic to, or have a phobia of needles etc I suspect the whole issue will go away.
 
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packermac

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I have no idea what ours or other governments may have planned or not for domestic rules.
But if you look back to the 70's with smallpox vaccinations mandatory to the USA from Europe, and even now I believe in areas where Yellow Fever is required you either produce proof of vaccination or you do not get in. From a random look both Thailand (also even required for a transit of over 12 hours) and Angola both require a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate to enter (these being first two countries I bothered to check, I am sure there are still many more) and it also appears there is doubt over 10 year (as it always was) or lifetime validity (as claimed by the WHO since 2016). Yellow Fever is mentioned as not being suitable for all, but no mention of exemptions if you are not able to have the jab.
I guess the same may apply for many countries at least initially, I can see a Biden led White House mandating a vaccine certificate to enter the USA, or it will get added to the ESTA.
 
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I think any attempts domestically could result in claims of being ageist given the order of priority is generally weighted towards older people.
I also think any attempts internationally could be branded elitist as currently its the richest countries like ourselves, N America, Europe and well off parts of the Middle East who are getting vaccines first through being able to splash the cash. Less well off countries will likely be waiting till we've got all our supplies and then getting the leftovers. You could be creating a 2 tier world where those who have had it or can afford multiple tests being allowed to do what they want and those who are still waiting or can't afford multiple tests are limited in their activities which does little in terms of inequality.

I'm not in favour of governments mandating them but if the odd private company (looking at you Qantas) wants to do so then part of me says let them and then we can see by how well the business does as to whether it's a good idea.
 

notlob.divad

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I have no idea what ours or other governments may have planned or not for domestic rules.
But if you look back to the 70's with smallpox vaccinations mandatory to the USA from Europe, and even now I believe in areas where Yellow Fever is required you either produce proof of vaccination or you do not get in. From a random look both Thailand (also even required for a transit of over 12 hours) and Angola both require a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate to enter (these being first two countries I bothered to check, I am sure there are still many more) and it also appears there is doubt over 10 year (as it always was) or lifetime validity (as claimed by the WHO since 2016). Yellow Fever is mentioned as not being suitable for all, but no mention of exemptions if you are not able to have the jab.
I guess the same may apply for many countries at least initially, I can see a Biden led White House mandating a vaccine certificate to enter the USA, or it will get added to the ESTA.

Pretty sure off the top of my head Brazil requires Yellow Fever, I was offered it as part of the vaccine package my old company put together for me. They had quite a few facilities in Brazil so it was included in the most common vaccines required for travelling employees. At the time I was heading somewhere else in a short time scale so we decided I should leave the yellow fever one until is was nessesary. In the end I never ended up going to Brazil so never had it.
 

johnnychips

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When I went to Congo I had to have a Yellow Fever vaccine which cost £55 about five years ago. I think if you arrived without one, you had to have one at the airport, which I suspect would have cost rather more.
 

birchesgreen

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Yes i had yellow fever jab when i went to Indonesia. I had a document i had to carry in my passport, i remember the immigration guy at Surabaya did check it closely!
 

Yew

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These measures still seem disproportionate for a virus that is endemic in most countries in the world. This is not a situation like in East Africa, where there is concern about tourists spreading it to locals; the locals already have it.
 

Elwyn

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I don’t think there’s any intention to make vaccination compulsory. The counter arguments have already been set out clearly. But if there’s still a lot of Covid about I do see airlines perhaps declining to carry passengers who haven’t been vaccinated, certain countries not allowing you in, some hotels perhaps declining to let you a room. So not having it – without a good medical reason – could just make life a bit harder.

The other thing that strikes me is that refusing to be vaccinated is a bit selfish. It means you are perhaps more likely to get it and pass it on to others. Of course you might die of it yourself, but that’s a personal issue. It’s the possible impact on others that concerns me more.

As far as vaccinating children is concerned, I heard an expert on the radio say that none of the existing vaccinations is licensed for under 16s. So we don’t have a vaccination for children at present. Apparently developing children’s vaccinations is a much trickier piece of work and carries much higher risks.
 

hwl

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As far as vaccinating children is concerned, I heard an expert on the radio say that none of the existing vaccinations is licensed for under 16s. So we don’t have a vaccination for children at present. Apparently developing children’s vaccinations is a much trickier piece of work and carries much higher risks.
The US government funded a phase 3 trial for the moderna vaccine for 12 -18 year olds that started in early December
 

londonteacher

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Every country has the right to decide who they let in. This already happens with certain travel vaccines.
 

Gadget88

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“ Future Covid-19 vaccination programmes may only offer the jab to those at highest risk of severe disease, a former Government adviser has said.

A future programme could fall in line with the current flu jab scheme and only see those at highest risk offered a vaccine, Professor David Salisbury said.”

Explain to me how covid vaccination on entry can be a long term solution if we don’t vaccine every person every year? As above says. Also how do you control borders what if I walk from Italy to Switzerland or drive? Are you going to set up border posts? Is this the end of free movement?
 

Huntergreed

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“ Future Covid-19 vaccination programmes may only offer the jab to those at highest risk of severe disease, a former Government adviser has said.

A future programme could fall in line with the current flu jab scheme and only see those at highest risk offered a vaccine, Professor David Salisbury said.”

Explain to me how covid vaccination on entry can be a long term solution if we don’t vaccine every person every year? As above says. Also how do you control borders what if I walk from Italy to Switzerland or drive? Are you going to set up border posts? Is this the end of free movement?
This won’t happen. Unless the vaccine is offered to everyone who intends to travel, it would be illegal and discriminatory to introduce vaccine passports. There’s no way they would get away with this.
 

6862

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This won’t happen. Unless the vaccine is offered to everyone who intends to travel, it would be illegal and discriminatory to introduce vaccine passports. There’s no way they would get away with this.

Rather optimistic to say that. The government can get away with anything these days!
 

ainsworth74

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This won’t happen. Unless the vaccine is offered to everyone who intends to travel, it would be illegal and discriminatory to introduce vaccine passports. There’s no way they would get away with this.

If the UK government did then perhaps but who did you intend to sue if, for instance, Singapore decided it would only allow visitors who could prove they had had a Covid vaccine? And are you planning on suing those countries that require a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate?
 

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This won’t happen. Unless the vaccine is offered to everyone who intends to travel, it would be illegal and discriminatory to introduce vaccine passports. There’s no way they would get away with this.
It may be the case that governments offer it free to those at high risk, but individuals who need it because they want to travel abroad will still be able to get it privately.
 

Gadget88

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This won’t happen. Unless the vaccine is offered to everyone who intends to travel, it would be illegal and discriminatory to introduce vaccine passports. There’s no way they would get away with this.
I agree but this passport story comes up a lot. Remember Tony Blair’s ID card policy reminds me of that?

If the UK government did then perhaps but who did you intend to sue if, for instance, Singapore decided it would only allow visitors who could prove they had had a Covid vaccine? And are you planning on suing those countries that require a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate?
It will be easier for long haul as there is less travel. Will be hard to control Europe’s open borders. Greece wants it but that’s an island. And what do they do once peoples immunity runs out and the government don’t vaccine under 50’s are they banning half the uk? Not viable.
 

ainsworth74

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Greece wants it but that’s an island.
Erm, Greece is not an island.
Will be hard to control Europe’s open borders.
That will be a decision that individual countries in Europe will need to make. Personally I doubt that they'll have internal controls on movement and will be more likely (if at all) to require it on entry to the Schengen Zone (similar to how a visitor now may go through full customs formalities on arrival in Europe but then won't need to worry whilst inside the zone).
And what do they do once peoples immunity runs out and the government don’t vaccine under 50’s are they banning half the uk?
Just as with a Yellow Fever vaccine I'm sure anyone who needs a vaccine for the purposes of travel will be able to arrange to have one privately.
Not viable.
I'm not sure there's any evidence of that. As has been stated previously on this thread if you need to travel to a country that requires a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate you get the vaccine privately. If any country intends to require visitor to have a Covid vaccine then I'm sure exactly the same (or at least broadly similar) arrangements would apply as do for Yellow Fever.
 

nlogax

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This may not be just a per-country decision at the start. IATA is currently trialling a 'health passport' app with about twenty different airlines. The idea is to widen adoption to most airlines in a concerted effort to convince governments to open their borders.
 
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