Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Skimpot flyer]

Given sensitivity around the term ‘Vaccine Passport’, the new digital document will be called
Certificate Of Vaccination ID

 

[Elwyn]

So 54 million will get the vaccine offer as under 18 don’t get it. Those with allergies can’t take it and some others don’t take it maybe 20% maybe 5 million so what next?

*Vaccine passports? Would they allow a nasal spray as an alternative to travel? A negative COVID test? Or is it no jab no fly? Would it be every single country world wide?

*Would vaccine passports be forever like airport security or short term to see how the virus is?

*Lockdown has seen an increase of suicides and depression how would someone have any quality of life if they were banned from weddings pubs football and holidays. Effectively living in lockdown? Now would this be short term or forever?

*If the government don’t vaccinate everybody every year what then? What if it’s at risk groups only then someone unvaccinated is the same as someone who had the vaccine but the protection has expired?

*What exemptions would there be for vaccines to travel? Would it cover any mental health issues?

*Vaccine passports in development are digital what if you don’t have a smart phone? How do they know the passport is genuine if it’s paper?

*How would EU countries deal with 5 million barred Brits and possibly many more in Eu countries as I heard take up is low in France? Would it be the end of EU’s open borders? Are they going to stop cars crossing the border and have border checks?

*What do you do if you have 5 million who can’t take it for health reasons or other what do you do about the rapid increase of suicides with people who have nothing left and even banned from weddings? Two tier society?

or would better treatments possibly oral vaccines be the future or even single dose vaccines maybe better testing would this be the future and options will improve or are we stuck in a two jab every year society forever?


We need an open debate in society about this ..

It’s under 16s that don’t get the jab at present, not under 18s. None of the current drugs are licensed for under 16s, though there is work going on in the US to license one that can be used on them. So they will probably be included in due course.

Will a nasal spray etc be acceptable in lieu of vaccination? No, I doubt it. If it were then they wouldn’t insist on vaccination in the first place.

Will mental health issues be a reason that might exempt you from being vaccinated? No.

Will there be exemptions? They are likely to be few and far between and will likely come at a price, in terms of proving you are not a risk. In most cases, unless your presence is specially wanted in the country you are intending to visit, you’ll just be refused entry or refused permission to board your flight.

Will I be allowed in without vaccination if I quarantine? Perhaps, but that’s obviously a real pain to administer and not without loopholes as we have seen in Australia and New Zealand, and I suspect most countries will not allow it, save in exceptional circumstances.

Are they going to stop cars on the borders in the EU and have border checks? At present the Irish police are checking vehicles crossing from Northern Ireland. If you are travelling without a valid reason there’s a €100 fine. (So much for no controls on the Irish land border). They are also currently checking cars arriving at Dublin Airport. If you arrive there and are travelling without a valid reason, then there’s a €500 fine. The treaty that underpins the EU specifically says that the normal free movement provisions can be suspended or restricted on several grounds. One is to protect public health, so the legal potential to do this has been there since at least 1973 if not before. Just they have never previously needed to use them. So perhaps people haven’t been aware of their existence. Such controls will only last as long as it is judged they are necessary. (It’s a huge resource requirement and the police normally have better things to do).

Will vaccination be a permanent requirement? Not necessarily. Most vaccination requirements (like yellow fever) have varied over the years according to the level of risk.

The rules are likely to vary from country to country according to their own assessments of what they need to protect their citizens.

The call for an open debate in society about this, is probably academic if the restrictions are imposed by a country you are thinking about visiting. They are entitled to do what they judge right to protect their citizens. If you are uncomfortable with what they require, you could always write to their Embassy. But I doubt they’ll give a toss. I’d probably just strike that country off your list of prospective destinations.

 

[duncanp]

It may be the case that governments offer it free to those at high risk, but individuals who need it because they want to travel abroad will still be able to get it privately.

And the Yellow Fever vaccine is not free on the NHS.

Yellow fever - Vaccination

Find out about the yellow fever vaccine, including who should have it, where to get it, how much it costs, and what side effects it can cause.

www.nhs.uk

The yellow fever vaccine is not available for free on the NHS, so you'll have to pay for it.

It typically costs around £60 to £85.

So I think it will depend on whether in future the COVID-19 vaccination is deemed necessary for public health reasons in the UK, in which case it will be free on the NHS.

If the vaccine is required solely for travel purposes, then it is likely that it will be available at a small charge.

I suspect that the government will try and negotiate with the EU to come to an arrangement where vaccine passports are not compulsory, once sufficient number of people have been vaccinated to build up herd immunity.

Long haul destinations such as Australia, New Zealand and the United States are more likely to require vaccine passports for longer, but if you can afford to fly there you can afford £50 or so for a vaccine.

 

[Gadget88]

Some border restrictions, such as requirements for vaccination certificates, were likely to remain in place for years to come, as it was “highly unlikely” that Covid will ever be entirely eradicated from the human population, he said.” even Neil Ferguson doesn’t think the certificate would last forever a few years maybe. But surely depends on who gets vaccinated yearly.

Erm, Greece is not an island.

That will be a decision that individual countries in Europe will need to make. Personally I doubt that they'll have internal controls on movement and will be more likely (if at all) to require it on entry to the Schengen Zone (similar to how a visitor now may go through full customs formalities on arrival in Europe but then won't need to worry whilst inside the zone).

Just as with a Yellow Fever vaccine I'm sure anyone who needs a vaccine for the purposes of travel will be able to arrange to have one privately.

I'm not sure there's any evidence of that. As has been stated previously on this thread if you need to travel to a country that requires a Yellow Fever vaccine certificate you get the vaccine privately. If any country intends to require visitor to have a Covid vaccine then I'm sure exactly the same (or at least broadly similar) arrangements would apply as do for Yellow Fever.

Fair enough about the yellow fever one. But do you think it will be every country or do you see it being a small number medium number or large number? And which ones at a guess? Greece Australia is ones I can name off hand at the moment?

And the Yellow Fever vaccine is not free on the NHS.

Yellow fever - Vaccination

Find out about the yellow fever vaccine, including who should have it, where to get it, how much it costs, and what side effects it can cause.

www.nhs.uk

So I think it will depend on whether in future the COVID-19 vaccination is deemed necessary for public health reasons in the UK, in which case it will be free on the NHS.

If the vaccine is required solely for travel purposes, then it is likely that it will be available at a small charge.

I suspect that the government will try and negotiate with the EU to come to an arrangement where vaccine passports are not compulsory, once sufficient number of people have been vaccinated to build up herd immunity.

Long haul destinations such as Australia, New Zealand and the United States are more likely to require vaccine passports for longer, but if you can afford to fly there you can afford £50 or so for a vaccine.

To be fair I did see Ryan air say no passports but Qatar airways says they will require vaccination I guess these companies have a heads up on what’s coming.

 

[Yew]

The call for an open debate in society about this, is probably academic if the restrictions are imposed by a country you are thinking about visiting. They are entitled to do what they judge right to protect their citizens. If you are uncomfortable with what they require, you could always write to their Embassy. But I doubt they’ll give a toss. I’d probably just strike that country off your list of prospective destinations.

The Council of Europe is passing a resolution the specifically forbids discrimination based on vaccine status.

 

[Elwyn]

The Council of Europe is passing a resolution the specifically forbids discrimination based on vaccine status.

What about the rest of the world then?

 

[Gadget88]

The Council of Europe is passing a resolution the specifically forbids discrimination based on vaccine status.

Cool so it would mean Europe wide? Wonder what other countries will do

 

[Yew]

What about the rest of the world then?

How do you expect me to know?

Cool so it would mean Europe wide? Wonder what other countries will do

All countries that are signatory to the Council of Europe, which includes the UK.

 

[Gadget88]

How do you expect me to know?



All countries that are signatory to the Council of Europe, which includes the UK.

So what does it mean exactly that they can’t demand a vaccine on entry in Europe? What about travel companies and airlines/trains is that included? And is there a link to it?

 

[Elwyn]

How do you expect me to know?



All countries that are signatory to the Council of Europe, which includes the UK.

I don't actually expect you to know what each country intends. My point was simply that the rest of the world is free to impose such restrictions as it judges right.

 

[arbeia]

Within reason, you already have proof of vaccination. When you are vaccinated, you are given a card saying date of, and a second section to be filled in by vaccinator at time of second jab. Admittedly it isn't a foolproof system by any means.

 

[Elwyn]

Article here on the Guardian website which reports that Germany is closing its borders on 14th Feb. to travellers from the Czech Republic and the Tyrol region of Austria. That seems to answer the earlier query about whether there could be border restrictions within the EU:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ob-amazon-variant-three-times-more-contagious

 

[Gadget88]

So what will the rules be for Europe no vaccine discrimination or no border controls long term? I don’t think Germany is closing all its borders only some.

 

[Horizon22]

The interim period between the 8 defined groups getting vaccination and all adults will be interesting. There may be many younger populations happy to be vaccinated but unable to get access to have one and potentially unable to travel which is quite an unfair set of circumstances whilst older generations are able to jet off wherever. I don't think that will be at all popular, and honestly, I don't think it likely but its not a situation that's completely unfeasible.

 

[STINT47]

The interim period between the 8 defined groups getting vaccination and all adults will be interesting. There may be many younger populations happy to be vaccinated but unable to get access to have one and potentially unable to travel which is quite an unfair set of circumstances whilst older generations are able to jet off wherever. I don't think that will be at all popular, and honestly, I don't think it likely but its not a situation that's completely unfeasible.

I think the biggest issue will come with the vaccinated not following the local rules rather than flying off on holiday

I'm in my 30's but will shortly get the vaccine due to having type 1 diabetes. My parents and grandparents have already been vaccinated so when we have all been done what is to stop us all meeting up indoors for lunch? In about a months time we will be about as protected as we are likely to get.

I'm not actually intending to do that as it would be unfair on the young with no existing health conditions who have made big sacrifices for us over the last year. However if others don't do the same then it could cause some resentment and problems for the goverment.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the biggest issue will come with the vaccinated not following the local rules rather than flying off on holiday

I'm in my 30's but will shortly get the vaccine due to having type 1 diabetes. My parents and grandparents have already been vaccinated so when we have all been done what is to stop us all meeting up indoors for lunch? In about a months time we will be about as protected as we are likely to get.

I'm not actually intending to do that as it would be unfair on the young with no existing health conditions who have made big sacrifices for us over the last year. However if others don't do the same then it could cause some resentment and problems for the goverment.

I think that will cause a natural breakdown in the rules that will be hard to enforce - hopefully restrictions start to be lifted in tandem anyway so fewer people feel like criminals.

 

[kristiang85]

I'm not actually intending to do that as it would be unfair on the young with no existing health conditions who have made big sacrifices for us over the last year. However if others don't do the same then it could cause some resentment and problems for the goverment.

I'm one of the last people who will get the vaccine, yet I fully support anybody who is fully vaccinated going to meet up with their families. What's the point in delaying? It's only going to cause more likelihood of mental health issues.

Also the more people do it, the quicker the government will realise they can't control us anymore.

 

[londonteacher]

Just some points that I have thought of after reading this thread:

• EU travel - As we are no longer part of the EU we can only hope to be treated to exemptions from any potential rules that they impose such as the requirement to be vaccinated to travel freely. However, the likelihood of that sort of restriction is limited as the number of people from the UK who travel to the EU is high so countries would lose out on income from tourism.
• Worldwide travel - Countries do have the right to choose their entry requirements but many will unlikely use vaccination status as part of this - especially if their economy relies heavily on tourism from around the world.
• Airlines - Airlines would have the right to choose whether they carry people without vaccinations as they can update their conditions of carriage. However, if this would severely impact their income would they do this.

I can see that international travel as a whole would only return to normal in 2022 as the number of cases in most countries is perceived to be high, however, some travel corridors will be back by the summer (May/June onwards), and this time to be on a more permanent basis.

 

[yorkie]

Some posts above are straying away from the topic of vaccine passports, so it would be good if we can try to stay on topic (I know it can be difficult and of course a lot of issues are intrinsically linked)

Clearly vaccine passports are dead as a concept in the UK, but the reality is that I think some countries are going to require proof of vaccination (and/or proof of a negative test) in order to visit them. If I could prove I've had a vaccination (once I have had it!) I would welcome being able to show the relevant documentation if avoids me having to be tested, but it doesn't have to be in the form of a "vaccination passport"

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Just some points that I have thought of after reading this thread:

• EU travel - As we are no longer part of the EU we can only hope to be treated to exemptions from any potential rules that they impose such as the requirement to be vaccinated to travel freely. However, the likelihood of that sort of restriction is limited as the number of people from the UK who travel to the EU is high so countries would lose out on income from tourism.
• Worldwide travel - Countries do have the right to choose their entry requirements but many will unlikely use vaccination status as part of this - especially if their economy relies heavily on tourism from around the world.
• Airlines - Airlines would have the right to choose whether they carry people without vaccinations as they can update their conditions of carriage. However, if this would severely impact their income would they do this.

I can see that international travel as a whole would only return to normal in 2022 as the number of cases in most countries is perceived to be high, however, some travel corridors will be back by the summer (May/June onwards), and this time to be on a more permanent basis.

As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), but the vaccine doesn’t prevent you contracting coronavirus, it just limits the severity of the infection?
So how do ‘Vaccinated only’ airlines prevent their customers mingling with the ‘unclean’ in the departure lounge, passport control, airport retail units etc ???

 

[Bantamzen]

As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), but the vaccine doesn’t prevent you contracting coronavirus, it just limits the severity of the infection?
So how do ‘Vaccinated only’ airlines prevent their customers mingling with the ‘unclean’ in the departure lounge, passport control, airport retail units etc ???

They don't, which is why most countries didn't have something in place by the beginning of their rollouts. Airlines that insist on vaccinations are going to find their customer bases greatly reduced.

 

[Yew]

I can see that international travel as a whole would only return to normal in 2022 as the number of cases in most countries is perceived to be high, however, some travel corridors will be back by the summer (May/June onwards), and this time to be on a more permanent basis.

I'm sorry, those timescales are unacceptable, we need a rapid return to normality now there are vaccines. Dragging this unscientific misery out for any longer is a crime against humanity.

 

[londonteacher]

I'm sorry, those timescales are unacceptable, we need a rapid return to normality now there are vaccines. Dragging this unscientific misery out for any longer is a crime against humanity.

I agree. But international travel is not a right and countries do have the right to decide their border policy. International travel will return this year but probably not to every country in the world.

It is important to remember that just because the UK might be allowed to travel other countries do have the right to put restrictions on people entering their countries.

 

[Peter0124]

Vaccine passport for shops could happen, says Dominic Raab

Shops and restaurants could require people to show vaccine passports under plans being considered by the government, the foreign secretary has suggested.Dominic Raab said that the government was considering their use at the “domestic or local level”. His comments appear to put him at odds with Downi

www.thetimes.co.uk

They're considering Vaccine Passports to go shopping / pubs / restaurants and even domestic travel.
Not happy in the slightest if this is true, I'm at the very bottom of the vaccine queue so this doesn't sound like good news for those waiting ages for a vaccine.

 

[DB]

Vaccine passport for shops could happen, says Dominic Raab

Shops and restaurants could require people to show vaccine passports under plans being considered by the government, the foreign secretary has suggested.Dominic Raab said that the government was considering their use at the “domestic or local level”. His comments appear to put him at odds with Downi

www.thetimes.co.uk

They're considering Vaccine Passports to go shopping / pubs / restaurants and even domestic travel.
Not happy in the slightest if this is true, I'm at the very bottom of the vaccine queue so this doesn't sound like good news for those waiting ages for a vaccine.

Fortunately, this government is so incompetent at that sort of thing that there's very little chance they could get a system in place in any realistic timescale.

 

[Peter0124]

Fortunately, this government is so incompetent at that sort of thing that there's very little chance they could get a system in place in any realistic timescale.

Wouldn't mind it if we all had the opportunity to get the jabs before they consider implementing this, but if they implemented this before everyone had the chance to get a vaccine then that's discriminative. Hopefully they do it after everyone's vaccinated and not beforehand.

EDIT - After realising that some people cannot get the jab anyway due to allergies / those who refuse it, then Vaccine Passports would definitely not be a good idea.

 

[Bantamzen]

Vaccine passport for shops could happen, says Dominic Raab

Shops and restaurants could require people to show vaccine passports under plans being considered by the government, the foreign secretary has suggested.Dominic Raab said that the government was considering their use at the “domestic or local level”. His comments appear to put him at odds with Downi

www.thetimes.co.uk

They're considering Vaccine Passports to go shopping / pubs / restaurants and even domestic travel.
Not happy in the slightest if this is true, I'm at the very bottom of the vaccine queue so this doesn't sound like good news for those waiting ages for a vaccine.

And how would that work if people can't get a vaccine? "Sorry you are not allowed to buy food until you've had a jab"? Pure fantasy.

 

[yorksrob]

If I end up being discriminated against because I haven't been offered a vaccine, I will be very annoyed.

The Government is telling us that shops/hospitality etc will be opened when it is "safe" to do so for society, in which case the risk of going to one will be to the individual.

It's not the states job to protect me from myself by denying me access to shops and services.

 

[DB]

Wouldn't mind it if we all had the opportunity to get the jabs before they consider implementing this, but if they implemented this before everyone had the chance to get a vaccine then that's discriminative. Hopefully they do it after everyone's vaccinated and not beforehand.

They shouldn't be doing it at all - I'm by no means sure I even want the vaccine when it's eventually offered.

It's not likely to happen in reality, fortunately.

And how would that work if people can't get a vaccine? "Sorry you are not allowed to buy food until you've had a jab"? Pure fantasy.

And it would effectively be forced medical treatment, which is likely to be dodgy legally (not that this government is too bothered by that sort of thing, of course, but there has to be a limit to how much even they can misuse emergency powers).

 

[Typhoon]

Fortunately, this government is so incompetent at that sort of thing that there's very little chance they could get a system in place in any realistic timescale.

There is obviously a Tory donor or spouse of an MP who is at a loose end who they want to give a job to at tax payers expense.

Quotes like that of of Raab just goes to show why he is unsuited for a key role in government - open mouth and spout before engaging brain.

Wouldn't mind it if we all had the opportunity to get the jabs before they consider implementing this, but if they implemented this before everyone had the chance to get a vaccine then that's discriminative. Hopefully they do it after everyone's vaccinated and not beforehand.

Even they wouldn't be that stupid! Then would you have to make sure you had had the booster; some people have had both jabs, I don't know when those at the end of the queue are due the second, but it will be getting on for a year since the first jabs are given. Are they going to insist on kids having them - down to what age? What about teenagers who are caring for a parent, who can't get food otherwise.
Don't worry. its years away!