Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[londonteacher]

We?

Britain has no right in telling other countries what to do though.

 

[ainsworth74]

We should apply pressure to ensure that they are following scientific principles, and not political expediency.

Sorry, I was just imagining our Government doing something that wasn't basically all about political expediency....

 

[MikeWM]

BoJo is currently pouring cold water on the idea of vaccination passports being needed for domestic activities:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56067401 (@12:45)

Goodness, this guy is weak.

'What I don't think we will have'... - isn't he supposed to be the Prime Minister? Isn't it, in the end, up to him?

 

[LAX54]

Those vaccines aren't in limited supply, with distribution being highly prioritised by the Government?
The virus is already in circulation in most countries?
The vaccines have limited evidence that they prevent transmission?

In that case no one will be going anywhere ever again ! LOL It seems obvious that many, if not all Countries will want proof of vaccination, it cannot bee that hard, when you have the 2nd jab, then you also get a card / certificate with required details on it.

 

[Yew]

In that case no one will be going anywhere ever again ! LOL It seems obvious that many, if not all Countries will want proof of vaccination, it cannot bee that hard, when you have the 2nd jab, then you also get a card / certificate with required details on it.

How do you reach that absurd conclusion? It seems like you're presuming that vaccine passports are necessary, and we can't travel without them, as justification for why vaccine passports are necessary.

 

[Gadget88]

These passports are such a worry for me. I worry life will be barely worth living and getting essential food could be an issue. They are mandating in his via the back door.

What sort of life would I have if I can’t visit the cinema, bowling, football, gigs bad enough in lockdown without it being years or forever. I know the government favour testing but these swabbing flow tests that go up your nose and throat are not pleasant either. Can see there being large queues everywhere.

I think I can live with disruption for a few years but if this is the new normal what is the point of life? I would be existing rather than living.

 

[bramling]

And how would that work if people can't get a vaccine? "Sorry you are not allowed to buy food until you've had a jab"? Pure fantasy.

It really is a surefire way to civil disobedience. Goodness knows how we haven't already had it, but this would be incendiary.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I have a card stating my name, the type / brand of vaccine and the batch number and the date administered. its issued by the NHS and says on one side 'keep this with you'

I do not approve of a 'passport' for domestic use, and I do not think anyone would, although we had ID coming out of our ears I think ! But see no issue with them for International Travel, which would be introduced by the Country that you are heading for rather than the UK Government, but if that Country said we need proof, then so be it !
As many have said you need various documented jabs for some Countries now, so what is the difference ?

Does your card look like this? (See below)
They can be bought on the internet !

(image shows credit-card sized card in which there is are boxes for your name, Name of vaccine, Batch number, Date of vaccination and second appointment date)

It really is a surefire way to civil disobedience. Goodness knows how we haven't already had it, but this would be incendiary.

I shared a video earlier of a police officer threatening a shop owner with a 10k fine for not wearing a face mask.
The comments on YouTube were interesting. One person said ‘the police will face a backlash when this is all over’, to which another poster countered
‘This will only be over WHEN the police face a backlash’

If the Government attempt to bring in vaccine passports for shops, pubs etc, this impacts younger people the most, of course. I hope think there will be mass protests.

 

[MikeWM]

These passports are such a worry for me. I worry life will be barely worth living and getting essential food could be an issue. They are mandating in his via the back door.

What sort of life would I have if I can’t visit the cinema, bowling, football, gigs bad enough in lockdown without it being years or forever. I know the government favour testing but these swabbing flow tests that go up your nose and throat are not pleasant either. Can see there being large queues everywhere.

I think I can live with disruption for a few years but if this is the new normal what is the point of life? I would be existing rather than living.

In the end, everyone has a hill they are willing to die on, because they can see that the alternative is so repulsive that trying to fight, even if you lose, is preferable to rolling over.

For me, domestic 'vaccine passports' are such a hill. I sincerely hope there are enough others that agree and we can stop it before it gets started.

(I seem to be both rather pessimistic and rather belligerent today... Oh well

 

[TheAlbanach_]

We should apply pressure to ensure that they are following scientific principles, and not political expediency.

So by that logic, why should I need a visa for any country? I don’t get why so many British people think they have any say on what other countries set as their entry requirements.

 

[londonteacher]

So by that logic, why should I need a visa for any country? I don’t get why so many British people think they have any say on what other countries set as their entry requirements.

Exactly!

 

[Typhoon]

In the end, everyone has a hill they are willing to die on, because they can see that the alternative is so repulsive that trying to fight, even if you lose, is preferable to rolling over.

For me, domestic 'vaccine passports' are such a hill. I sincerely hope there are enough others that agree and we can stop it before it gets started.

(I seem to be both rather pessimistic and rather belligerent today... Oh well

If you are thinking of walking up that hill, I think you will find it is a well-worn track. All 70 members of the COVID Recovery Group (CRG) of Conservative MPs will be ahead of you. Johnson may have been able to silence the 'Remoaners' by sacking many of them and driving others out but I suspect many of the CRG are made of sterner stuff - Steve Baker, Graham Brady, Mark Harper, Phillipa Stroud and the like will be vocal, are competent and would get re-selected every day of the week (Stroud is in the Lords). Johnson won't fancy a fight with them. He may win a vote on 'vaccine passports' with the help of (shadow cabinet) Labour but a rebellion of 70 of your own side looks a lot like defeat and they will not be afraid to rebel. There is a good reason why Johnson put members of the ERG in his cabinet, to keep them onside. But it does mean that they have a say in policy. The numbers likely to rebel are also likely to encourage some of the new intake; the vaccine passport for accessing shops and services at home will attract vocal opposition and the prospect of being one term MPs might weigh more heavily than the offer of being PPS to the Minister of Paper Clips.

I suspect Raab spoke out of turn, and has been told to keep a low profile while some remedial work is done. At the end of the day Johnson wants to be liked and will put that ahead of a policy, whether it be right or wrong.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I liken Raab’s comments to those of my union, when they are trying to sell us a pay deal that erodes some of our hard-won terms and conditions. They show us a ‘shopping list’ of all the things management wanted to bring in at the start of the negotiations; we are then supposed to be thankful and accepting of a small cut to our Ts & Cs.
Raab’s leak was buttering-up the masses to accept ‘only’ a small scale imposition roll-out of vaccine passports, in a limited way.
For now...

 

[LAX54]

How do you reach that absurd conclusion? It seems like you're presuming that vaccine passports are necessary, and we can't travel without them, as justification for why vaccine passports are necessary.

If the USA or Australia for example say, we need proof of vaccine for entry, what do you do then ? If I want to go to a Country that says I need a proof of vaccine, I have to get one, or I don't go ! It is not that hard ! (and the UK should do the same for Visitors)

Does your card look like this? (See below)
They can be bought on the internet !

(image shows credit-card sized card in which there is are boxes for your name, Name of vaccine, Batch number, Date of vaccination and second appointment date)


I shared a video earlier of a police officer threatening a shop owner with a 10k fine for not wearing a face mask.
The comments on YouTube were interesting. One person said ‘the police will face a backlash when this is all over’, to which another poster countered
‘This will only be over WHEN the police face a backlash’

If the Government attempt to bring in vaccine passports for shops, pubs etc, this impacts younger people the most, of course. I hope think there will be mass protests.

Anything can be bought on the Internet, be it genuine or fake, and that was an example, but the point was that it is NOT difficult to supply proof and secure of vaccine !

 

[nlogax]

If the USA or Australia for example say, we need proof of vaccine for entry, what do you do then ? If I want to go to a Country that says I need a proof of vaccine, I have to get one, or I don't go ! It is not that hard ! (and the UK should do the same for Visitors)

Precisely this. It's a reminder that UK law / UK government matters least when wanting to travel. We're just one country out of 195.

 

[RT4038]

If the USA or Australia for example say, we need proof of vaccine for entry, what do you do then ? If I want to go to a Country that says I need a proof of vaccine, I have to get one, or I don't go ! It is not that hard ! (and the UK should do the same for Visitors)


Anything can be bought on the Internet, be it genuine or fake, and that was an example, but the point was that it is NOT difficult to supply proof and secure of vaccine !

I daresay the same applies with a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate. However, if it is suspected as false, do you want to risk a compulsory jab there and then, with goodness knows what vaccine and hygiene conditions, without any effective legal recourse as the immigration authorities hold all the cards? And possibly a compulsory quarantine, at your expense, taking most of your holiday money? Probably not.

 

[MikeWM]

If you are thinking of walking up that hill, I think you will find it is a well-worn track. All 70 members of the COVID Recovery Group (CRG) of Conservative MPs will be ahead of you. Johnson may have been able to silence the 'Remoaners' by sacking many of them and driving others out but I suspect many of the CRG are made of sterner stuff - Steve Baker, Graham Brady, Mark Harper, Phillipa Stroud and the like will be vocal, are competent and would get re-selected every day of the week (Stroud is in the Lords). Johnson won't fancy a fight with them. He may win a vote on 'vaccine passports' with the help of (shadow cabinet) Labour but a rebellion of 70 of your own side looks a lot like defeat and they will not be afraid to rebel.

I agree with all of that, but the problem is that I'm not sure Johnson cares anymore, he may well be ok now with getting things passed with Labour help. Plus I'm not sure any Parliamentary votes would be necessary for a 'non-binding' domestic vaccine passport to be produced - that businesses weren't 'required' (legally) to check as a condition of entry - but if all businesses in a sector then decide to require it anyway...

I liken Raab’s comments to those of my union, when they are trying to sell us a pay deal that erodes some of our hard-won terms and conditions. They show us a ‘shopping list’ of all the things management wanted to bring in at the start of the negotiations; we are then supposed to be thankful and accepting of a small cut to our Ts & Cs.
Raab’s leak was buttering-up the masses to accept ‘only’ a small scale imposition roll-out of vaccine passports, in a limited way.
For now...

I think you're probably right, politicians aren't remotely as dumb as people often think. And this is a very old trick. You see it regularly with controversial legislation too - the Government wants to pass something nasty, so they publish a bill with that nasty thing, plus something *really* nasty. Everyone concentrates on fighting the really nasty thing and is relieved when they get that removed, forgetting that the nasty thing the government actually wanted in the first place has been passed.

Anything can be bought on the Internet, be it genuine or fake, and that was an example, but the point was that it is NOT difficult to supply proof and secure of vaccine !

Expect to see the idea floated of 10 year jail sentences for producing fake vaccination papers. They did the prep work for that a couple of weeks back with the quarantine forms.

 

[LAX54]

I daresay the same applies with a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate. However, if it is suspected as false, do you want to risk a compulsory jab there and then, with goodness knows what vaccine and hygiene conditions, without any effective legal recourse as the immigration authorities hold all the cards? And possibly a compulsory quarantine, at your expense, taking most of your holiday money? Probably not.

So are you saying there should be an 'International Travel' certificate / passport whatever they wish to call it, or just think others should just open borders to all ?
This Virus, is not going anywhere soon I fear.

 

[RT4038]

So are you saying there should be an 'International Travel' certificate / passport whatever they wish to call it, or just think others should just open borders to all ?
This Virus, is not going anywhere soon I fear.

I think it unlikely that all other countries will just open their borders without proof of vaccination. Political pressure if nothing else. There is already the precedent of the Yellow Fever International Certificate (and I think there was similar with Smallpox until it was declared 'irradicated'). Likelihood is that a similar thing will happen with Covid vaccinations, at least in the short term.

Yellow fever is only endemic in a fairly small number of (mainly) equatorial countries. These countries generally require a vaccination to be visited, and others require proof of vaccination if one arrives from an endemic country. Relatively few UK residents visit such countries, so will not have come across the requirements and the Certificate.

 

[MikeWM]

Likelihood is that a similar thing will happen with Covid vaccinations, at least in the short term.

Passports themselves were a short-term measure imposed due to the first World War. 'Temporary' things that increase the powers of the state usually don't end up turning out that way.

That said, I do think this is somewhat inevitable, not least because the UK has led the way in scaremongering over 'variants'.

 

[LAX54]

Passports themselves were a short-term measure imposed due to the first World War. 'Temporary' things that increase the powers of the state usually don't end up turning out that way.

That said, I do think this is somewhat inevitable, not least because the UK has led the way in scaremongering over 'variants'.

Passport History is quite fascinating !

1414 – The earliest recorded British passport can be traced back to documents known as safe conducts. These appeared in an Act of Parliament under the reign of Henry V.

1778 – Until 1778 passports were written in English and Latin. After this date, they were issued in French which was the language of diplomacy at the time.

1794 – All passports began to be issued by the Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who we would now call the Foreign Secretary. Previously all passports would have been issued and signed by the King and Queen.

1915 – The first modern-style British passports, including a photograph and signature were first issued. They were made of a single piece of paper that folded out and sat between cardboard covers.

1921 – The first blue passport in the format of a book was issued in 1921, it had 32 pages and was written in French.

1947 – The final passports issued bearing the signature of the Foreign Secretary were issued.

1968 – UK passports began to be issued with validity for ten years, double the previous validity.

 

[MikeWM]

Passport History is quite fascinating !

Indeed so - I have a book on it somewhere.

Until World War I though, I don't believe they were mandatory anywhere. That doesn't mean they weren't of some use to the bearer before then (eg. in pointing out you were someone important and not to be messed with).

 

[LAX54]

I think it unlikely that all other countries will just open their borders without proof of vaccination. Political pressure if nothing else. There is already the precedent of the Yellow Fever International Certificate (and I think there was similar with Smallpox until it was declared 'irradicated'). Likelihood is that a similar thing will happen with Covid vaccinations, at least in the short term.

Yellow fever is only endemic in a fairly small number of (mainly) equatorial countries. These countries generally require a vaccination to be visited, and others require proof of vaccination if one arrives from an endemic country. Relatively few UK residents visit such countries, so will not have come across the requirements and the Certificate.

Checking Vaccines for Holidays seems depending on Country you need:

Yellow fever​

Polio​

Meningococcal meningitis​

 

[RT4038]

Indeed so - I have a book on it somewhere.

Until World War I though, I don't believe they were mandatory anywhere. That doesn't mean they weren't of some use to the bearer before then (eg. in pointing out you were someone important and not to be messed with).

But relatively few people travelled 'cross border' prior to the World War 1, and those that did were generally of a certain status anyway. Getting a bit off the point now.

 

[Gadget88]

As has been said Yellow fever isn’t many countries if they demand passports for Europe millions will be forever banned from travel. This isn’t good for mental health.

I fear I may have no job, no life no cinema no football and no holidays without vaccine making it mandated so what’s the point of life if I am banned and jobless?

 

[Typhoon]

I agree with all of that, but the problem is that I'm not sure Johnson cares anymore, he may well be ok now with getting things passed with Labour help.

Oh, I think he does, but not in the way that you probably mean; I think he cares about his place in history. At the moment the only thing that is buoying it up is the vaccination programme. If he gets the next few months wrong and he has to re-tighten some of the reigns there will be hell to pay, and if there has already been a sizeable revolt on an internal vaccine passport, those who had revolted are likely to find it easier next time around. Labour won't back Johnson on a competence issue!
EDIT: I suspect the future Mrs Johnson cares as much, if not more!

Johnson's big problem is that there will be enquiries into the handling of Covid; for chairs of some HoC Select Committees, it will be a chance for a place in the sun. If Johnson is still PM he will have an opportunity to influence the proceedings; if not. his successor will ensure that as much condemnation can be laid at his door as possible. The only one with more to lose is Hancock.

I'm not sure any Parliamentary votes would be necessary for a 'non-binding' domestic vaccine passport to be produced - that businesses weren't 'required' (legally) to check as a condition of entry - but if all businesses in a sector then decide to require it anyway...

Big if - any sector, like supermarkets, with few different businesses there is a chance. Pubs, restaurants, night-clubs - no chance.

 

[packermac]

As has been said Yellow fever isn’t many countries if they demand passports for Europe millions will be forever banned from travel. This isn’t good for mental health.

I fear I may have no job, no life no cinema no football and no holidays without vaccine making it mandated so what’s the point of life if I am banned and jobless?

So other countries are supposed to worry about the mental health of UK citizens at the risk to the medical health of their own?
And anyway why is it a mental health issue not being able to travel to a foreign country, if you are not restricted travelling around your own country? Foreign travel is not an enshrined right.

 

[Richard Scott]

So other countries are supposed to worry about the mental health of UK citizens at the risk to the medical health of their own?
And anyway why is it a mental health issue not being able to travel to a foreign country, if you are not restricted travelling around your own country? Foreign travel is not an enshrined right.

But they may have a tourism industry that relies on foreign visitors, I'd probably spend more money on holiday abroad than I would here and possibly reciprocal is true so both countries benefit rather than Udall staying at home. I enjoy going abroad and experiencing other cultures, that does my wellbeing good, same possibly true for people of other nations? What is wrong with wanting to go abroad? You may not seem it necessary but for some of us it is important.

 

[Bantamzen]

So other countries are supposed to worry about the mental health of UK citizens at the risk to the medical health of their own?
And anyway why is it a mental health issue not being able to travel to a foreign country, if you are not restricted travelling around your own country? Foreign travel is not an enshrined right.

Neither is travelling around our own country, as the last 12 months have shown.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of fish. People travel, and by doing so other countries often benefit. As such each country will be weighing up the balance between insisting on evidence of vaccination, and losing out on valuable tourism income. Some countries will insist on them, others may not. A lot will depend on the state of spread / hospitalisation / deaths in each country, the availability on suitable travel insurance where no cross health agreements exist (such as within the EU) etc. Time will tell.

What I don't understand though is why some on here have such a downer on people travelling abroad. Meeting new people, enjoying different foods, indulging in difference cultures isn't just good for a person, it can bring different cultures together. And all in all that isn't a bad thing.

 

[dan5324]

Well I think I can safely say it would kill public transport stone dead in this country. Get a jab to get on the train. Or just go in your car hassle free. Tough decision