Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[35B]

Would it not be more the case that those need persuading from behind their couches would be the very last to come out. If I were a hospitality / entertainment business, these would be the people I would least rely on to start a recovery.

Maybe they'll make more money than they lose if they do that - or maybe they'll lose more than they make. I agree it isn't a nice position to be in, yet another industry destroyed by fear-mongering.

However, any cinema that does so will certainly not get any custom from me (even if I did end up deciding to eventually have a vaccine - though I seriously doubt it) - and my contribution to the coffers of cinemas before all this rubbish started was far from trivial (we're talking probably £2000 or so each year, for over a decade).

It's a fair question, and I don't know the answer. But it's a suggestion that's been seriously made that getting people to visit places like cinemas will need something to persuade people that the risk of catching Covid after being sat next to a complete stranger for a couple of hours is low, and that vaccine passports may be the way to do that.

However, it's not what you or I say that matters, but how those opinions stack up across the population. And while cinemas may err one way, live theatre has a different audience base and may go another - yet the two are very similar.

I just always try to keep in mind that those I know and talk to/read are not necessarily representative of the population at large, and my snapshot of opinion may not be representative.

 

[MikeWM]

It's a fair question, and I don't know the answer. But it's a suggestion that's been seriously made that getting people to visit places like cinemas will need something to persuade people that the risk of catching Covid after being sat next to a complete stranger for a couple of hours is low, and that vaccine passports may be the way to do that.

But why would being vaccinated themselves not be sufficient, if that risk is sufficiently concerning to them?

If you're at serious risk, then get vaccinated. If you're worried about covid, justifiably or not, then get vaccinated. Why care what other people do?

At this point the Government - by the logic it described itself last year - should be declaring victory, telling us how wonderful the vaccination campaign has been, *and that it is time to get back to normal*. The very fact that this hasn't been the message of the vaccination campaign, and they are still promulgating fear despite the number of people who have been vaccinated, is what is leading more and more people to conclude that it is now actually all about the 'papers'.

 

[bramling]

But why would being vaccinated themselves not be sufficient, if that risk is sufficiently concerning to them?

If you're at serious risk, then get vaccinated. If you're worried about covid, justifiably or not, then get vaccinated. Why care what other people do?

At this point the Government - by the logic it described itself last year - should be declaring victory, telling us how wonderful the vaccination campaign has been, *and that it is time to get back to normal*. The very fact that this hasn't been the message of the vaccination campaign, and they are still promulgating fear despite the number of people who have been vaccinated, is what is leading more and more people to conclude that it is now actually all about the 'papers'.

Facebook is full of moans about selfish people not wanting to be vaccinated, and how “I’d not want to sit next to one of them on the train”. Again, needless to say it’s a particular demographic propagating this.

No doubt we’re going to see packed beaches again this week. No wonder some people went this to last as long as possible, as clearly there’s still a lot of people not back at work.

 

[Mintona]

I see news today that it is ‘almost certain’ that Reading and Leeds festival goers will need vaccine passports. Considering how many young people go, a huge amount of people with tickets won’t have had both jabs by then. I presume they won’t be allowed to go with only one.

No matter how much certain posters wish it, there is no way everything is completely normal on June 21st.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I see news today that it is ‘almost certain’ that Reading and Leeds festival goers will need vaccine passports. Considering how many young people go, a huge amount of people with tickets won’t have had both jabs by then. I presume they won’t be allowed to go with only one.

I assume the alternative will be to take a test before entry and you will be certified clean enough to enter if it returns negative.

 

[Darandio]

It's a strange world we live in now isn't it, at least in the way we are dealing with this.

Want to attend a festival but can't be vaccinated for whatever reason? You must prove you are clean virus free. Yet the vast majority of people who attend are presumably vaccinated and don't need to prove they are virus free, but any of them could still actually be carrying it. As the unvaccinated person, you are potentially the one in more danger but are accepting the risks and cracking on with life. In the event you were unvaccinated and just allowed to enter without proving you are clean virus free, even if you passed it on to some of those who are vaccinated it proposes a vastly diminishing risk to them anyway!

What a skewed way of life we are approaching.

 

[bramling]

It's a strange world we live in now isn't it, at least in the way we are dealing with this.

Want to attend a festival but can't be vaccinated for whatever reason? You must prove you are clean virus free. Yet the vast majority of people who attend are presumably vaccinated and don't need to prove they are virus free, but any of them could still actually be carrying it. As the unvaccinated person, you are potentially the one in more danger but are accepting the risks and cracking on with life. In the event you were unvaccinated and just allowed to enter without proving you are clean virus free, even if you passed it on to some of those who are vaccinated it proposes a vastly diminishing risk to them anyway!

What a skewed way of life we are approaching.

It fits in with the whole mentality which has developed of this being a virus carried by dirty “other people”. When one looks at it through that logic, it makes twisted sense.

 

[MikeWM]

there is no way everything is completely normal on June 21st.

There is clearly no intention for everything to be 'completely normal' ever again, else we wouldn't be discussing 'vaccine papers' at all.

The sooner people realise this, the sooner we can work out if we're going to try to do anything about it, or just sleepwalk into a pale miserable echo of the society we previously enjoyed.

 

[Bantamzen]

I see news today that it is ‘almost certain’ that Reading and Leeds festival goers will need vaccine passports. Considering how many young people go, a huge amount of people with tickets won’t have had both jabs by then. I presume they won’t be allowed to go with only one.

No matter how much certain posters wish it, there is no way everything is completely normal on June 21st.

Two massive problems scream out here...

1. Most people planning to attend will not be offered both, or maybe even one jab before the events.

2. People travel some distances to get to these events, so if they are not advised in good time to test in advance they could even up traveling only to be turned back at the gate following an on the spot test.

It seems parts of the event industry are sleepwalking towards a big problem, or even potentially massively stifling demand for tickets. I think as with the pub trade, they would be better demanding the government lets go of it's stupid vaccine passport fantasy.

 

[takno]

Two massive problems scream out here...

1. Most people planning to attend will not be offered both, or maybe even one jab before the events.

2. People travel some distances to get to these events, so if they are not advised in good time to test in advance they could even up traveling only to be turned back at the gate following an on the spot test.

It seems parts of the event industry are sleepwalking towards a big problem, or even potentially massively stifling demand for tickets. I think as with the pub trade, they would be better demanding the government lets go of it's stupid vaccine passport fantasy.

I suspect there's enough pent up demand that pretty much any festival which actually runs this year will be fine, as long as they have a test on the gate option. Apart from anything else, half the punters won't even read the requirements in advance

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The whole idea of a vaccine passport for domestic settings such as pubs or restaurants or any other public venue fills me with dread and makes me very uneasy.

I am 40. At current progress I should have had my first jab before indoor hospitality opens in May, and my second jab say by the middle of August. Does that mean I cannot go to a pub till August? Or will I be ok to go to a pub having had only one jab?

I often go with friends who are between 28 and 39. If they don't have their first jabs by the time pubs reopen does that mean they can't go to the pub? Or will they have do a covid test each time they wanted to go out? If the latter, how far in advance does the test need to be done? If it is a home test kit how do you get official proof of negative test? How frequently do you need to do a test and how long does a negative result last? Weekly? Daily?

And who is going to check the paperwork at each venue? Pubs, except certain venues in larger towns or cities, do not have door staff. In many places there may only be one or two members of staff on duty. Who checks the paperwork or test results before people enter? And if extra staff are required to do this who pays for the extra staff considering the industry is already on it's knees.

Aside from the practicalities of enforcing any paperwork requirements, how long does such a scheme last? If it is introduced this summer - by which time all vulnerable people should have had 2 jabs and most others 1 jab and case rates will be very low - what more needs to happen to get rid of it? When will it be declared safe to go out and mingle without having to prove your paperwork?

 

[HSTEd]

The whole idea of a vaccine passport for domestic settings such as pubs or restaurants or any other public venue fills me with dread and makes me very uneasy.

I am 40. At current progress I should have had my first jab before indoor hospitality opens in May, and my second jab say by the middle of August. Does that mean I cannot go to a pub till August? Or will I be ok to go to a pub having had only one jab?

I often go with friends who are between 28 and 39. If they don't have their first jabs by the time pubs reopen does that mean they can't go to the pub? Or will they have do a covid test each time they wanted to go out? If the latter, how far in advance does the test need to be done? If it is a home test kit how do you get official proof of negative test? How frequently do you need to do a test and how long does a negative result last? Weekly? Daily?

And who is going to check the paperwork at each venue? Pubs, except certain venues in larger towns or cities, do not have door staff. In many places there may only be one or two members of staff on duty. Who checks the paperwork or test results before people enter? And if extra staff are required to do this who pays for the extra staff considering the industry is already on it's knees.

Aside from the practicalities of enforcing any paperwork requirements, how long does such a scheme last? If it is introduced this summer - by which time all vulnerable people should have had 2 jabs and most others 1 jab and case rates will be very low - what more needs to happen to get rid of it? When will it be declared safe to go out and mingle without having to prove your paperwork?

Currently the claimed plan, now that they have officially abandoned the "no domestic vaccine passports" promise, was to only bring it in once everyone has been offered. Which means we will have no restrictions and then they will be brought in later.
Ofcourse I do not expect hospitality to actually reopen, nor the rules to be dropped in June.

Additionally, despite claims that it is "temporary" - I suspect such a system, once introduced, would be permanent.

Hancock is salivating at the thought of using the huge test and trace machinery to crush seasonal influenza, and no doubt will force flu vaccinations on the entire population this winter.
Eventually it is likely that the populace will be required to take every vaccine the Government can think of.

 

[102 fan]

There is clearly no intention for everything to be 'completely normal' ever again, else we wouldn't be discussing 'vaccine papers' at all.

The sooner people realise this, the sooner we can work out if we're going to try to do anything about it, or just sleepwalk into a pale miserable echo of the society we previously enjoyed.

That is true. Most people I know just accept restrictions, even when I post things about Covid passports on Facebook, there's no reaction or comment, yet it will apply to all of them if implemented.

Sad.

 

[MikeWM]

Six months have passed since I pointed this out in a discussion about the Track and Trace app.

I don’t think the app itself is necessarily the issue - what it does currently is fairly benign - but it is conditioning us to a behaviour of getting permission to enter places, where previously we would be expected to be able to enter freely unless there was a good reason not to.

The logical next step will be for the app (this one or another) to show whether we are *allowed* into places, based on whether we’ve passed a test recently and/or been vaccinated.

That’s not a conspiracy theory by the way, that’s the whole point of ‘operation moonshot’. It is declared Government policy.

Pretty much all the pieces are now in place for a Chinese-style social credit system, where you are only allowed to do what your phone says you are allowed to do, and I’m increasingly - sadly - convinced that is one of the hoped-for aims of all this. People should seriously consider whether that is the kind of society we want to live in before it is too late (if it isn’t already).

So far - very very unfortunately - I appear to have been correct.

 

[102 fan]

BAME groups urged to have Covid vaccine in UK TV ad campaign

Main broadcasters uniting this Thursday to show film in which ethnic minority stars encourage take-up

www.theguardian.com

'A video campaign urging ethnic minority communities to take the Covid-19 vaccine is to be aired simultaneously by the main British broadcasters on Thursday.'

If BAME groups are hesitant about vaccination, how would it look if they are excluded from hospitality because of no vaccination? We all know how sensitive race is.

 

[clagmonster]

Would be amazed if indoor venues such as cinemas and theatres don’t mandate masks for the foreseeable future (ie. 12 months), and wouldn’t surprise me if outdoor venues such as football stadia do too.

There was a Sport England survey, promoted by the Football League and the clubs, about the measures which will make people feel comfortable to return to sports grounds, implying that all of the measures were being considered. Face coverings in outside venues was one of the proposals. I stated that it would make me less comfortable to return.

 

[Darandio]

Eventually it is likely that the populace will be required to take every vaccine the Government can think of.

AstraZeneca have just been awarded £1.4m towards developing a gonorrhoea vaccine. There's our mandatory 2022 jab sorted.

 

[liam456]

AstraZeneca have just been awarded £1.4m towards developing a gonorrhoea vaccine. There's our mandatory 2022 jab sorted.

Well, I... uh.... do value my balls and would want to keep them in for shape.

I sincerely hope there's no big overarching conspiracy here, but I do find that the adage about 'temporary' government solutions being permanent is pretty accurate.

 

[35B]

But why would being vaccinated themselves not be sufficient, if that risk is sufficiently concerning to them?

If you're at serious risk, then get vaccinated. If you're worried about covid, justifiably or not, then get vaccinated. Why care what other people do?

At this point the Government - by the logic it described itself last year - should be declaring victory, telling us how wonderful the vaccination campaign has been, *and that it is time to get back to normal*. The very fact that this hasn't been the message of the vaccination campaign, and they are still promulgating fear despite the number of people who have been vaccinated, is what is leading more and more people to conclude that it is now actually all about the 'papers'.

A good question - I don't know. There's a measure of caution about how much protection the vaccine offers an individual, and how much it stops others spreading, but I'm personally in a place where once immunity's at a certain level, I'm content to let my guard down.

But, and it's an important but, some of that public confidence will depend on as many people as possible taking the vaccine - which includes those like you who are expressing an unwillingness to take one. Not because you have to, or you're being put under moral blackmail to do so, but simply because it's the right thing to do in your own interest, even if your personal medical benefit is likely to be minimal (as, frankly, is mine).

Six months have passed since I pointed this out in a discussion about the Track and Trace app.

So far - very very unfortunately - I appear to have been correct.

I disagree with the extrapolation from a specific behaviour to a wider model such as you portray.

 

[takno]

AstraZeneca have just been awarded £1.4m towards developing a gonorrhoea vaccine. There's our mandatory 2022 jab sorted.

I can't see anybody wanting to waste money rolling that out to all over 50s tbh

 

[kristiang85]

Currently the claimed plan, now that they have officially abandoned the "no domestic vaccine passports" promise, was to only bring it in once everyone has been offered. Which means we will have no restrictions and then they will be brought in later.
Ofcourse I do not expect hospitality to actually reopen, nor the rules to be dropped in June.

So the crazy thing is that before more have been vaccinated its fine for people to mix, yet after more have been vaccinated then the passports come in. If there is no rise in deaths in the first phase, then the second is redundant.

 

[Gadget88]

I am worried travel will be very hard if you are unvaccinated if tests last 72 hours that gives me 3 days then I need to take a foreign test might not be as good? Could have to quarantine? I reckon it’s fine for a day trip or one or two nights in Europe but as someone who loves European rail travel going from London to Rome would be hard. Even my 2020 Lyon and Basel trip is hard due to moving countries or taking trains. What do people think this is short term so I might have to make do with short haul trips or is this the new normal? Are they still gonna demand tests of unvaccinated? I mean Turkey isn’t they allow you in untested but can I see other countries doing this? No?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So the crazy thing is that before more have been vaccinated its fine for people to mix, yet after more have been vaccinated then the passports come in. If there is no rise in deaths in the first phase, then the second is redundant.

More likely, I fear, is that social distancing, masks, separated tables etc will be mandated until all adults have been offered a vaccine and then the Government will say pubs etc don't have to enforce social distancing as long as they have covid passport checks etc.

This could mean that the long suffering hospitality sector has to enforce social distancing until the Autumn at the earliest.

 

[Gadget88]

I see news today that it is ‘almost certain’ that Reading and Leeds festival goers will need vaccine passports. Considering how many young people go, a huge amount of people with tickets won’t have had both jabs by then. I presume they won’t be allowed to go with only one.

No matter how much certain posters wish it, there is no way everything is completely normal on June 21st.

Yep so that rules out going last minute or exchange sites. You will need a test. I think that’s the way gigs are going but not sure about pubs touch and go isn’t it? I mean how long is this going to last? I really don’t fancy weekly testing to go about my business.

 

[Wuffle]

I can't see anybody wanting to waste money rolling that out to all over 50s tbh

I believe STD's are higher in the over 55's

 

[nedchester]

More likely, I fear, is that social distancing, masks, separated tables etc will be mandated until all adults have been offered a vaccine and then the Government will say pubs etc don't have to enforce social distancing as long as they have covid passport checks etc.

This could mean that the long suffering hospitality sector has to enforce social distancing until the Autumn at the earliest.

My view is that by June most if not all of groups 1-9 will have received both doses and a good proportion of the rest will have received the first dose. The risk of severe illness will be very low. At that point we need to look at the actual risk of severe illness. The only ones at risk are those who have refused the vaccine and I don't see why we should be restricted because they can't be bothered.

Unless there is a VERY good reason no masks, no social distancing and NO vaccine passports domestically need to be the way forward.

The problem is a vocal minority seem to want restrictions to continue for ever. I also don't like the way the Government drop in suggestions as a drip drip effect to get people used to the idea.

June 21st for me means normal (that's proper normal)

 

[Class 33]

Unless there is a VERY good reason masks, social distancing and NO vaccine passports domestically need to be the way forward.

The problem is a vocal minority seem to want restrictions to continue for ever. I also don't like the way the Government drop in suggestions as a drip drip effect to get people used to the idea.

June 21st for me means normal (that's proper normal)

That first sentence seems that you want want masks and social distancing to be the way forward. Is that correct? Because in your third sentence you say 21st June for you means normal(that's proper normal). Social distancing and face mask wearing continueing isn't proper normal!

 

[nedchester]

That first sentence seems that you want want masks and social distancing to be the way forward. Is that correct? Because in your third sentence you say 21st June for you means normal(that's proper normal). Social distancing and face mask wearing continueing isn't proper normal!

My apologies! I have amended my post as I was typing quickly. I meant NO restrictions at all unless there is a VERY good reason.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

At least we'll be able to see the GP or go to the supermarket without being declared "clean" beforehand.

Half of people have Covid antibodies as virus deaths hit lowest level since October

Positive findings lead to calls for Boris Johnson to bring forward next steps on roadmap for easing restrictions

www.telegraph.co.uk

The Government is currently examining whether people should be required to show proof that they have Covid antibodies, from a vaccination or recent infection.

The Telegraph understands that ministers are likely to conclude that domestic Covid passports should not be required in GP surgeries and supermarkets, along with other areas deemed “essential”.

However, government papers, due to be discussed by a small group of ministers this week, are said to leave the door open to pubs and restaurants and other large crowded venues being able to request proof of vaccination, antibodies, or a negative test as proof of entry.

The papers are also said to state that the NHS app is the preferred option for hosting some form of digital certification, with sources describing it as a “fairly obvious move” and a “no brainer”.

While Whitehall sources insist that no decisions have been made, it is understood that ministers and officials are leaning towards creating an “optional” system for sectors such as hospitality to implement if they choose to do so.

(quite far down the article)

Then again, it at least it confirms that we won't need to provide our cleanliness papers to the bus driver or train guard, as they are deemed "essential" services too.

 

[kez19]

At least we'll be able to see the GP or go to the supermarket without being declared "clean" beforehand.

Half of people have Covid antibodies as virus deaths hit lowest level since October

Positive findings lead to calls for Boris Johnson to bring forward next steps on roadmap for easing restrictions

www.telegraph.co.uk

(quite far down the article)

I only have this objection in terms of the app proposal, surely it should be on a universal app? I ain't going to down Protect Scotland app for the sake of going outwith Scotland and as proof (then again has there been any word from Sturgeon properly mentioning this or even merging info like this onto an app? As far as I have heard is Sturgeon/Leitch speak of passports but nothing forthcoming - so to me in Scotland we don't have a clue on going forward regardless other than follow Boris - this part isn't being political but I do wish Sturgeon et al would get their heads out the sand than keep digging further).

I know its quoted that it maybe on the NHS app (but thats in England and possibly Wales?) but in Scotland there is no "NHS" app so thats redundant. I just even went on Google and all I get is the NHS inform site and to download the app.