Validity code YU - joining at Didcot?

[BRX]

Just want to check I've got this right...

Super Off Peak Return from Guildford to Stroud, travelling on a Friday afternoon. These are the trains I want to use:

Guildford 1444
Reading 1519
---
Reading 1522
Didcot 1537
---
Didcot 1633
Stroud 1722

Validity code YU applies to that ticket

There are restrictions mentioned for trains leaving Reading after 1530; therefore the one leaving Reading at 1522 should be OK.

There is no mention of trains leaving Didcot though, so I am taking that to mean I am OK to use the service leaving Didcot at 1633. That train will have passed through Reading after 1530 though... does that matter?

 

[wintonian]

Just want to check I've got this right...

Super Off Peak Return from Guildford to Stroud, travelling on a Friday afternoon. These are the trains I want to use:

Guildford 1444
Reading 1519
---
Reading 1522
Didcot 1537
---
Didcot 1633
Stroud 1722

Validity code YU applies to that ticket

There are restrictions mentioned for trains leaving Reading after 1530; therefore the one leaving Reading at 1522 should be OK.

There is no mention of trains leaving Didcot though, so I am taking that to mean I am OK to use the service leaving Didcot at 1633. That train will have passed through Reading after 1530 though... does that matter?

Normally the restriction will say something like this:

"TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:
Off-Peak_tickets from stations
nolt listed are valid for
connections into trains
departing as shown above."

and indeed this is from a FGW restriction.

 

[BRX]

Normally the restriction will say something like this:

"TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:
Off-Peak_tickets from stations
nolt listed are valid for
connections into trains
departing as shown above."

and indeed this is from a FGW restriction.

Not sure I follow exactly what that means though or whether it applies to me. The train from Didcot doesn't "connect into" a service a service subject to the restrictions - it is a service subject to restrictions if I were to get onto it at Reading. I'm getting onto it after it's passed through Reading.

 

[Paul Kelly]

There is no mention of trains leaving Didcot though, so I am taking that to mean I am OK to use the service leaving Didcot at 1633. That train will have passed through Reading after 1530 though... does that matter?

Unfortunately yes it does matter; the exact wording of the restriction is

Tickets are valid:

On services timed to depart
London Paddington between 1010
and 1501, and from 1901.

On services timed to depart
Reading between 1030 and 1530,
and from 1901.

so it applies to all trains departing from Reading at those times regardless of where you board the train. Not all restrictions are worded like this, although it is quite common.

 

[wintonian]

Not sure I follow exactly what that means though or whether it applies to me. The train from Didcot doesn't "connect into" a service a service subject to the restrictions - it is a service subject to restrictions if I were to get onto it at Reading. I'm getting onto it after it's passed through Reading.

Sorry yes you have allready passed through Reading.

Code YU also has this at the bottom as note A which you are referred to

 

[RJ]

In this case, I believe the text forbids travel on services timed to depart Reading, so that means it regardless of where you board, you have to go by that.

 

[BRX]

Hm, the thing is though, if I ask NRE what trains I can use with that ticket it gives me the option in the screenshot attached below.

The train from Reading to Swindon leaves Reading before 1530 (when the restrictions start) but then the train from Swindon is the same one that I'd be getting onto at Didcot. ie, that train has passed through Reading after 1530 and yet I seem to be allowed to get onto it at Swindon.

So why would I be allowed to get onto that train at Swindon but not at Didcot?

 

[bb21]

In that case, I suggest you take a copy of the itinerary with you when you travel.

I am in agreement with the others that, reading through the restriction text, it is quite clear that you cannot join a train which leaves Reading after 1530. As you may be aware, the booking engines do not always interpret the restrictions in the way they were meant to, due to the complex nature of the system.

Alternatively you could always seek permission from the guard before boarding the service.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So why would I be allowed to get onto that train at Swindon but not at Didcot?

Interesting find! I have had a look at the electronic version of restriction YU and I think there is an error in the way it is programmed. According to the human-readable text, the only stations that should have station-specific times for the outward portion should be Paddington, Reading, Waterloo and Salisbury. For all others the default "at or later than 1030" should apply.

BUT - Newbury and Didcot also have specific times coded in for the morning restriction only, when they shouldn't, because the morning restriction is the default anyway and doesn't need a station-specific entry. My hunch is that what NRE is doing is taking the train that you are getting on at Swindon, then first working forward station-by-station towards Stroud to see if there are any special restrictions on arrival times at any stations for the outward portion of a ticket with restriction YU (there aren't), then working backwards station-by-station towards Paddington to see if there any special restrictions on departure times at any stations for the outward portion of a YU ticket. Didcot is the first match it finds, and since the records say the ticket is valid any time after 10:30 from Didcot, it allows the journey, and doesn't check any further.

An interesting bug, definitely - it seems pretty clear it isn't supposed to be valid, but ATOC likes to claim NRE is definitive, so you should be OK with a print-out from it...

Thinking a bit further, the reason for this anomaly is probably related to the fact that a few years ago, First Great Western had afternoon peak restrictions on regulated super off-peak returns from Newbury and Didcot. Someone pointed out that this was forbidden under fares regulation, and the restrictions were removed - but it seems it was done by an incompetent programmer; the station-specific entries for Newbury and Didcot should have been completely deleted rather than changed so they only contained the morning restrictions. And this confusion is the result.

 

[BRX]

Interesting find! I have had a look at the electronic version of restriction YU and I think there is an error in the way it is programmed. According to the human-readable text, the only stations that should have station-specific times for the outward portion should be Paddington, Reading, Waterloo and Salisbury. For all others the default "at or later than 1030" should apply.

BUT - Newbury and Didcot also have specific times coded in for the morning restriction only, when they shouldn't, because the morning restriction is the default anyway and doesn't need a station-specific entry. My hunch is that what NRE is doing is taking the train that you are getting on at Swindon, then first working forward station-by-station towards Stroud to see if there are any special restrictions on arrival times at any stations for the outward portion of a ticket with restriction YU (there aren't), then working backwards station-by-station towards Paddington to see if there any special restrictions on departure times at any stations for the outward portion of a YU ticket. Didcot is the first match it finds, and since the records say the ticket is valid any time after 10:30 from Didcot, it allows the journey, and doesn't check any further.

An interesting bug, definitely - it seems pretty clear it isn't supposed to be valid, but ATOC likes to claim NRE is definitive, so you should be OK with a print-out from it...

Thinking a bit further, the reason for this anomaly is probably related to the fact that a few years ago, First Great Western had afternoon peak restrictions on regulated super off-peak returns from Newbury and Didcot. Someone pointed out that this was forbidden under fares regulation, and the restrictions were removed - but it seems it was done by an incompetent programmer; the station-specific entries for Newbury and Didcot should have been completely deleted rather than changed so they only contained the morning restrictions. And this confusion is the result.

I'm slightly unclear what you're saying here, or maybe you've misunderstood... the NRE screenshot shows a connection changing at Swindon, so is allowing me to do that. But it doesn't necessarily allow me to use the services I want to use, ie. getting onto the Stroud service at Didcot not Swindon (as in the OP).

Are you saying that you reckon I could get on at Didcot, or not?

If tried to make NRE give me journey times from Guildford to Stroud via Didcot, and tell me the connections that fare is "also valid on" but the system just returns an error when I try to do that.

(Does the "via" function on NRE ever work correctly by the way? I find it very temperamental)

 

[bb21]

ie. getting onto the Stroud service at Didcot not Swindon (as in the OP).

The itinerary in your OP is not valid, as the connection at Reading is less than the minimum recommended time.

The train suggested in the screen-grab you supplied does not stop at Didcot.

A valid itinerary changing at Didcot would be, for example,

Guildford 1444 - Reading 1519
Reading 1542 - Didcot 1556
Didcot 1633 - Stroud 1722

for which only the Off-Peak fares are valid.

(Does the "via" function on NRE ever work correctly by the way? I find it very temperamental)

"via" does not mean "changing at". It merely means passing through this station. Instead of using "via" when specifying your requirements, you could use "change at" instead.

 

[Paul Kelly]

In my excitement at finding an interesting bug in NRE, I forgot what the original question was! As everyone has said, it is an error that it is allowing you to use that train changing at Swindon and according to the published validity information it is not allowed. But if you bring a print-out from NRE showing that it is permitted, you may well be OK. If my theory about the cause of the bug is right, then it should also show the same trains as OK when changing onto them at Didcot, i.e. your original itinerary would be shown as valid (although it is not supposed to be), if you can manage to get NRE to display it.

But I can't think how to make it force a change at Didcot into the itinerary to get it to show what you want. Putting Didcot as a via point is no use, as all trains go via Didcot whether they stop there or not.

 

[wintonian]

for which only the Off-Peak fares are valid.

and Anytime fares surely?

Although off-peak ticket would be cheaper.

 

[bb21]

and Anytime fares surely?

Although off-peak ticket would be cheaper.

Yes, of course. You know what I mean.

 

[wintonian]

Yes, of course. You know what I mean.

Yep I do, just clarifying for those that come here via Google and have no idea about rail ticketing.

 

[BRX]

"via" does not mean "changing at". It merely means passing through this station. Instead of using "via" when specifying your requirements, you could use "change at" instead.

Ah...thanks for this, I hadn't realised there's a "change at" option as well.

Using this I've actually managed to get it to show the itinerary I want (only difference being a slightly earlier departure from Guidlford presumably to meet the minimum connection time at Reading) and it tells me I can use the Super Off Peak.

 

[BRX]

The itinerary in your OP is not valid, as the connection at Reading is less than the minimum recommended time.

Just to clarify this... if I attempt to make the journey with that less-than-recommended-time connection, does that actually somehow make my ticket not valid? I would have thought that it just means that i haven't got anyone except myself to blame if I miss the connection and can't complete my journey as intended.

 

[wintonian]

Just to clarify this... if I attempt to make the journey with that less-than-recommended-time connection, does that actually somehow make my ticket not valid? I would have thought that it just means that i haven't got anyone except myself to blame if I miss the connection and can't complete my journey as intended.

Yes that is correct, however if you are traveling on a ticket that guards/ RPI's etc. might not think is valid at first look and you are using an itenary to back this up then it is best to stick to it.

Having said that bar any time restrictions (i.e. whether you hold an anytime, off peak or super off peak ticket) if a route is valid at one point in a day then it is valid all day.

Time does not dictate valid routes, only the 'route' part of the ticket and the routeing guide can do this.

 

[bb21]

Just to clarify this... if I attempt to make the journey with that less-than-recommended-time connection, does that actually somehow make my ticket not valid? I would have thought that it just means that i haven't got anyone except myself to blame if I miss the connection and can't complete my journey as intended.

That is correct. However it is likely that your only source confirming the validity of your ticket on an otherwise barred service is the itinerary given by NRE, so I would not travel without a valid itinerary (and I would stick to it rigidly if I were you).

 

[ian13]

That is correct. However it is likely that your only source confirming the validity of your ticket on an otherwise barred service is the itinerary given by NRE, so I would not travel without a valid itinerary (and I would stick to it rigidly if I were you).

See, if I was able to show a 'planned' itinery, to justify the route taken, I'd see this as sufficient. Either a route is valid, or it is not, and if you have evidence that you were informed it was valid, this seems ample to me.

 

[wintonian]

See, if I was able to show a 'planned' itinery, to justify the route taken, I'd see this as sufficient. Either a route is valid, or it is not, and if you have evidence that you were informed it was valid, this seems ample to me.

As long as you are aware that you may be asked to pay an excess and they may be quite insistent about it.

 

[bb21]

See, if I was able to show a 'planned' itinery, to justify the route taken, I'd see this as sufficient. Either a route is valid, or it is not, and if you have evidence that you were informed it was valid, this seems ample to me.

The issue is not whether the route is valid or not, but whether it is permissible to join the train at Didcot at a supposedly barred time. I'm not sure how else you can show that your chosen service is not barred apart from having a recommended itinerary with you.

 

[34D]

Having said that bar any time restrictions (i.e. whether you hold an anytime, off peak or super off peak ticket) if a route is valid at one point in a day then it is valid all day.

Time does not dictate valid routes, only the 'route' part of the ticket and the routeing guide can do this.

I would respectfully disagree with this: the itinerary ONLY applies to what is printed. For example, there may be one train a day which is only valid due to being 'direct' or 'shortest' or there may be an easement to permit a different route on the last train of the day, not to mention different routes allowed when there is early morning engineering works, etc.

I would suggest anyone who is doing something which isn't strictly permitted (which this is, in my view) must follow their supporting itinerary 100% or expect to receive an excess/new ticket as appropriate.

 

[island]

I agree that the NR enquiries seems to be in error in this instance, and would recommend only travelling in line with a printed itinerary, and ideally reservations. An excess from Guildford to Stroud Glos would be £95.40! (Although in this instance the appropriate action would be to sell a new SOS at £62.)

 

[wintonian]

I would respectfully disagree with this: the itinerary ONLY applies to what is printed. For example, there may be one train a day which is only valid due to being 'direct' or 'shortest' or there may be an easement to permit a different route on the last train of the day, not to mention different routes allowed when there is early morning engineering works, etc.

I would suggest anyone who is doing something which isn't strictly permitted (which this is, in my view) must follow their supporting itinerary 100% or expect to receive an excess/new ticket as appropriate.

A direct train or the shortest route is always valid, it is irreverent if there is a train at the time of to meet the passengers needs or not.

Do you have an example of when the easements section has been used to to restrict or permit certain routes at a particular time of day as you suggest? In any-case the easements section forms part of the routing guide.
I grant you that engineering works may give rise to temporary easements for a limited part of the day, but if there are no works scheduled that day then there shouldn't be any such easement in place.

Finally I will just reiterate that in such cases I generally wouldn't advise passengers to go against such an itinerary

The exception being that you have followed the itinerary and allowed for the minimum connection times but you miss a connection due to a late service you were on, in which case I would advise getting the next available service allowing for ant TOC restrictions.

 

[34D]

A direct train or the shortest route is always valid, it is irreverent if there is a train at the time of to meet the passengers needs or not.

With respect, you have not read what I have written. I said "there may be one train a day which is only valid due to being 'direct' or 'shortest'"

Do you have an example of when the easements section has been used to to restrict or permit certain routes at a particular time of day as you suggest? In any-case the easements section forms part of the routing guide.
I grant you that engineering works may give rise to temporary easements for a limited part of the day, but if there are no works scheduled that day then there shouldn't be any such easement in place.

Yes:

Easement 56 Customers travelling from Oxford to Crewe and Shrewsbury may travel via Hereford by the last train of the day only

Easement 20004 Passengers for Exeter, Newton Abbot and Totnes are permitted to alight from the sleeper at Plymouth and double back to their destination in the morning.