Victoria line suspended - concrete flood 23 Jan 2014

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91101

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This is seriously worrying!

I used the Victoria line on Friday and at Victoria there were passageways cordoned off with staff. I spoke to the DSM and he said that it was related to a cock up by contractors!! Sounds like whoever the contractor is is in some very serious mud now!!!!
 
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Temple

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This is seriously worrying!

I used the Victoria line on Friday and at Victoria there were passageways cordoned off with staff. I spoke to the DSM and he said that it was related to a cock up by contractors!! Sounds like whoever the contractor is is in some very serious mud now!!!!

May I ask which passageways and when? I use the station every day and didn't see them, or I was just being ignorant.
 

codesam

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I think the best thing about this would have been the look of the TFL engineer who first discovered it.

I mean, I'd guess it's fairly standard procedure for electrical faults. They probably went down expecting a blown fuse, short circuit, bit of wire come loose, something like that. Opened the door and was confronted with what looking at the photos seems to be a 6" high wall of concrete. If it hadn't even set yet it would probably have started slowly oozing out.

I'd imagine the first reaction would be along the lines of "this is going to be a bad day. this is going to be a very, very bad day"
 

Manchester77

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I'd imagine the first reaction would be along the lines of "this is going to be a bad day. this is going to be a very, very bad day"

I'd have thought it would have been a word which starts in F and ends in K ;)

However TfL are saying that they hope services can resume south of Warren Street tomorrow so either they're being very optimistic or its not as bad as we thought, either way there are some engineers in for a long night!
 

edwin_m

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Just typical this would happen at a time when I'm going to be visiting Victoria a couple of times a week.

Someone suggested on another forum that it's a solid state interlocking.
 

ModernRailways

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However TfL are saying that they hope services can resume south of Warren Street tomorrow so either they're being very optimistic or its not as bad as we thought, either way there are some engineers in for a long night!

From what I've heard it's almost all been cleared up now and everything is just being checked over by the electrical engineers.

Bet South West Trains from Waterloo and the buses were packed with people for Vauxhall! The Victoria Line is probably the worst line to go down too especially just before the evening peak!
 

Nym

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Nym - most of what you just said went way over my head!
But from what you've said it sounds like there is more chance of a train doing a backflip and landing back on the tracks than a bit of misplaced concrete causing a blackout.
i.e. Not technically impossible, but will probably never happen in the entire lifetime of the universe, and them some.

(BTW my comment about my lights - I meant the lights in my living room and everything else with it, not some traffic lights. And I live about 15 miles from Victoria - but that's beside the point)

That's because in a post 16th Ed. fitted house the cascade rule doesn't exactly apply, you'll have a main incomer that is simply a double pole thermal overload circuit breaker, not very fast reacting to overcurrent but still fast enough. It doesn't need to be fast as it doesn't protect any external circuits.

In order to simplify domestic installations the class of circuit breaker to be used is specified in BS7671. But the basic rule of thumb is that...

An RCD is provided for anything that goes near water, is pluggable or nowerdays, "The failure of which would not result in increased danger.".

RCDs are Residual Current Devices, these detect any leakage of current in addition to overcurrent, such as a small amount of current leaking to earth, or a highly capacitive load (fingers for example) and as such will react significantly quicker than a termal overload circuit breaker, usually a Minature Circuit Breaker (MCB).

Installs today and for approximately the last 15 years the main incomer is a double pole "MCB" rated at around 100A, 80A or 63A, this usually matches the DNO fuse (Usually BS88) but is timed to react faster so that the operators fuse should never blow.

This will then feed the non pluggable circuits and a residual current circuit breaker / residual current device.

Non pluggable circuits running at low current, for example, lighting circuits can be (and are recomended to be) connected upstream of the RCD.

Downstream of this RCD is every other circuit, sockets, shower, cooker, boiler etc. This RCD will likely be rated at 63A or 80A for thermal overload and either 100mA (Pre 17th Ed.) or 30mA residual with an appropriate delay in the order of miliseconds. This delay allows additional or more sensitive RCDs or RCBOs to be installed to individually protect other circuits from earth leakage without triggering the main RCD, for example on shower circuits, or external circuits.

Other pluggable circuits are then fed by MCBs at appropriate thermal overload ratings, or through an RCBO as discribed above.

It is possble and likely in larger installations that two primary RCDs will be used in order that an earth fault will not knock everything out at once.

But this RCD is the one occation where the cascade effect rates things backwards, in this case for cost reduction as the loss of >1 circuit in a domestic installation isn't the end of the world (hence why lighting is usually not RCD protected, as it is also usually rated at 6A or less, so the thermal overload triggers much more easilly than on a 32A socket main or 45A cooker circuit)

In industrial installations, all circuits are protected as required, this can be thermal overload protection only with a non-diversified RCD protection device as in a domestic install (usually the case for comercial installs). Or can sequence and cascade ratings for different fault conditions in order to avod the cascade effect. However, for these installs a much more detailed analysis of earth fault loop impedence, fault current, fault thermal capacity and several other factors is carried out...

Signalling installations fall into this latter catagory ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd have thought it would have been a word which starts in F and ends in K ;)

However TfL are saying that they hope services can resume south of Warren Street tomorrow so either they're being very optimistic or its not as bad as we thought, either way there are some engineers in for a long night!

I think they're being optimistic, but I do hope I'm proven wrong. (At best I think it could be running to Victoria, less track circuits and points to prove for that)

No dowbt I'll find out tomorow what's running down there on me way to work...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just typical this would happen at a time when I'm going to be visiting Victoria a couple of times a week.

Someone suggested on another forum that it's a solid state interlocking.

The Victoria Line is Solid State Interlocking from Westinghouse / Avensys Rail systems, similar to Westrace. The relays shown are not used to provide interlocking in the traditional sense. They are not interlocking relays.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS to many posts above;

Lighting blowing an incandecant bulb will normally knock off an RCD so it's not protected in this way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From what I've heard it's almost all been cleared up now and everything is just being checked over by the electrical engineers.

I'd hope it's Signalling Engineers and Technical Officers... ;)
 
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Temple

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From what I've heard it's almost all been cleared up now and everything is just being checked over by the electrical engineers.

Bet South West Trains from Waterloo and the buses were packed with people for Vauxhall! The Victoria Line is probably the worst line to go down too especially just before the evening peak!

They were saying it had almost all been cleared a few hours ago. I think the estimate of a full service tomorrow at the start of service is a little optimistic if it's as severe as we're led to believe. Surely it'd have to be cleaned up, water/concrete damage inspected, damaged bits removed, replacements found (do they have a significant amount of replacement/spare parts? This isn't a case of one or two breaking), repaired, tested etc.
 

thebigcheese

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RCDs are Residual Current Devices, these detect any leakage of current in addition to overcurrent,
////snip////
Downstream of this RCD is every other circuit, sockets, shower, cooker, boiler etc. This RCD will likely be rated at 63A or 80A for thermal overload and either 100mA (Pre 17th Ed.) or 30mA residual with an appropriate delay in the order of miliseconds.

O/T but just to clarify... RCD's are earth leakage only; It's RCBO's that are earth leakage and overload.

Also Reg 110.2 (ii) specifies that the regulations do not apply to "railway traction equipment, rolling stock and signalling equipment"



On topic: We had that massive drill bit fall on the track from last year from building works above ground...I would have thought someone would have learned some lessons from that!
 

transmanche

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On topic: We had that massive drill bit fall on the track from last year from building works above ground...I would have thought someone would have learned some lessons from that!
Ah, but that was on Network Rail property... ;)
 

Nym

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O/T but just to clarify... RCD's are earth leakage only; It's RCBO's that are earth leakage and overload.

Also Reg 110.2 (ii) specifies that the regulations do not apply to "railway traction equipment, rolling stock and signalling equipment"



On topic: We had that massive drill bit fall on the track from last year from building works above ground...I would have thought someone would have learned some lessons from that!

BS7671 does indeed not apply to signalling equipment, but I use it as an example to demonstrate the point on the protection that is provided within the sensitive points of the system as this is the only standard that many people on this form will have come into contact with in any capacity.

And I'll stand corrected, I'm not a power / installs / building services engineer and don't work alongside them any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, but that was on Network Rail property... ;)

Only just, wouldn't have been much either way to hit LU...
 
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Temple

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Allegedly the contractors, whose name I'll save the embarrassment, poured the concrete into a void in an escalator machine room, where it burst into the signalling equipment room. Concrete was 30cm deep.
 

Blindtraveler

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Allegedly the contractors, whose name I'll save the embarrassment, poured the concrete into a void in an escalator machine room, where it burst into the signalling equipment room. Concrete was 30cm deep.



burst in? But how? Youd think theyd have checked for gaps before that sort of opperation? And come to that what was it doing in an escalater room? And finally, how do you clear up that kind of mess - wate till it sets then drill it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First concrete, now mud? What next? :D



at a guess, Sh*t!↲
 

Peter Mugridge

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The Victoria Line is Solid State Interlocking from Westinghouse / Avensys Rail systems, similar to Westrace.

I think you missed the joke there?

Solid state interlocking... :roll:




All this reminds me of BR filling part of the London Ring Water Main with cement while trying to build the Stewart's Lane flyover...
 

Temple

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burst in? But how? Youd think theyd have checked for gaps before that sort of opperation? And come to that what was it doing in an escalater room? And finally, how do you clear up that kind of mess - wate till it sets then drill it?

I'm afraid I don't know how or the checks before hand. Someone more knowledgeable in that area might be able to answer those questions. I'd imagine they'd try to remove as much wet concrete as possible whilst they could.

As an aside, when they said severe delays on the rest of the line, I didn't realise it was quite so bad. Just saw a picture of the PIS at Finsbury Park showing the first train to Walthamstow 47 minutes away. Although I suspect that could be an error.
 
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DJL

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That's incredible.
I think big thanks are in order to the people in involved who undoubtedly worked all night to fix this!
 

edwin_m

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On topic: We had that massive drill bit fall on the track from last year from building works above ground...I would have thought someone would have learned some lessons from that!

Well I guess they could have used it to drill out the concrete?
 

Clip

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What always makes me laugh about when the tube goes down is that people will just stand there waiting like a but of idiots even though they are constantly being told the line is closed!!

Walk somewhere and catch a bus you stupid people.
 

Simon11

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.. and there are plenty of times when in 5 minutes the line is reopens and you would have wasted your time making a detour. It's all a big gamble!
 

jon0844

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"We understand that a foot of concrete burst into the control room having been poured into an escalator void.

We await further information but what we do know is that LU technicians are on site now working flat out to clear up the mess and get services back on line, proving once again that its directly employed public sector staff who are needed to deal with this kind of emergency, making a nonsense of Boris Johnson's tube staff cuts plans."

– NATIONAL UNION OF RAIL, MARITIME AND TRANSPORT WORKERS SPOKESPERSON

Source: http://www.itv.com/news/london/upda...te-spill-making-a-nonsense-of-tube-cuts-plan/
 

Temple

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BBC have now update their article with a schedule. Very tight, line handed back for normal at 0500, first train leaves Brixton at 0526 normally.

Thursday 23 January

13:30 - Report of signal equipment failing
14:00 - Line part-suspended and bulk of concrete removed
16:00 - Concrete removed from delicate areas and detailed checks of wiring
21:00 - Damaged equipment replaced

Friday 24 January

00:45 - Signalling system tested
03:56 - First test train runs
04:25 - Trains tested in both directions
05:00 Line handed back to resume service as normal

The Victoria line's operations director has given some insight into the repair through the night.

Peter McNaught said:
The people actually removing wires one at a time. It's actually quite a cramped environment, it's down at ground level, so we had about eight technical officers working in half-hour shifts crouching down and removing these wires.

Because of the safety critical nature of the wires, every single change to the wiring has to be double-checked by an independent person.

At 03:56 we ran our first test train through the area, that was completed by 04:25.

After that we did a second pass of a test train in both directions before we were happy to announce and hand back the Victoria line at 05:00.

It's a real credit to the staff that worked overnight to make it run.
 

Yew

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Sounds like an incidence of floored technique. I bet their boss went ce-mental
 

millemille

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Uzair

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Very well done to the technicians who worked hard to hand back the line so quickly. I really was under the impression it would take days to rectify the situation!
 

Nym

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Very well done to the technicians who worked hard to hand back the line so quickly. I really was under the impression it would take days to rectify the situation!

Theres weeks of engineering hours work to be done yet to get it back to how it was though...
 
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