Virgin Trains: Early Days

[LowLevel]

Also regarding the Pretendolino, but the final, 90-hauled version:

Wasn't there one variant of the post-Princess Virgin timetable that saw one of the four trains between Birmingham and Manchester in each 2 hour period operate as a Birmingham-Manchester shuttle? So a shuttle would work every 2 hours.

There were 2 shuttle diagrams I think (as a round trip with turnaround allowance would take about 4 hours), and one year I saw the Pretendolino on one of them. I have a feeling it was actually booked for it, too.

In the mid 2000s there was a Cross Country diagram that featured Birmingham to Manchester shuttles. It was booked for a "short set" of 5 hired Riviera mk2s in debranded Virgin livery and a DVT hauled by a class 90, though on a couple of occasions it did escape further afield dragged by a 57.

 

[nw1]

In the mid 2000s there was a Cross Country diagram that featured Birmingham to Manchester shuttles. It was booked for a "short set" of 5 hired Riviera mk2s in debranded Virgin livery and a DVT hauled by a class 90, though on a couple of occasions it did escape further afield dragged by a 57.

Ah ok, that must have been it, thanks for that. Yes, it was a short set come to think of it, not the full Pretendolino.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I recall when I worked for XC Early 2000s and pre voyager introduction On saturday mornings a west coast allocated HST sets would be allocated to the 09:03 Paddington to Manchester Piccadilly service, from there I think it went to Paignton or Plymouth. It would then at some point end uo in Glasgow to then work the sunday 16:04 Glasgow Central to London Paddington (1V99 later 1V96) to get it back in to the capital for the monday motning Holyhead. Thin they were serviced at Old Oak Common before rejoining a WCML diagram

 

[Statto]

I do remember the Pines Express, which was Manchester to Poole which was was always an HST set, that may have come off Birmingham to Manchester shuttles too, don't know then the Pines Express branding was withdrawn, most of of the Manchester to South Coast via Reading services were local hauled.

Most if not all Scotland to West or South West via the West Coast were HST sets too

 

[Irascible]

Were the 90's originally defined as an cl 87 sub class? 87/2 I think. I think west coast regarded them as interchangeable. But the insides were very different, as 87 had tap changers, 90 was thyristor phase angle. I think the bogies and traction motors were the same, or very similar.

A somewhat moderninsed & production ready version of the single thyristor 87, iirc.

 

[dubscottie]

A few points..
The opening windows on a few Mk2 were done after they were withdrawn by Virgin. I believe it was so they could be used on steam charters with no ETH.

The mixed livery trains on XC is because a few rakes were refurbished prior to Virgin getting the franchise. They were outshopped in IC livery (as was one Anglia rake) and retained it to the end as the paint was under warranty.
It may explain why so much stuff ran around in debranded Virgin/Anglia livery long after the new owners bought the stock.

 

[route101]

I remember travelling on a MK2 set from Glasgow to Rugby in 2003. Was mostly MK3 sets to Glasgow.

 

[hexagon789]

I remember travelling on a MK2 set from Glasgow to Rugby in 2003. Was mostly MK3 sets to Glasgow.

Possible stepping-up for a failure?

I've seen a photo of a 2F set on the "Royal Scot" in about 2001/2. It lost 8 mins to Preston and a further 7 to Glasgow inclusive of using up recovery margins.

 

[Strathclyder]

Although it's not what the OP was after specifically and is not strictly relevent to it, this Flickr image group is relevent to the franchise/operator and time period in question:

Virgin Trains loco hauled substitutions

A group for the wide variety of motive power used to cover for the booked Virgin CrossCountry and West Coast services. 1997 onwards. So anything but the booked traction. No Virgin operated ILRA 47/8s, 86/2s, 87s, 90s, HSTs please.

www.flickr.com

The mixed livery trains on XC is because a few rakes were refurbished prior to Virgin getting the franchise. They were outshopped in IC livery (as was one Anglia rake) and retained it to the end as the paint was under warranty.
It may explain why so much stuff ran around in debranded Virgin/Anglia livery long after the new owners bought the stock.

OT, but was it this rake that had a DBSO (9710) that retained InterCity livery until 2004 when it had the first 'ONE' livery applied vinyl-style; as in, it still had the IC livery underneath (linked image from Flickr's Paul Smith)?

9710 Anglia DBSO Ipswich 17.06.04

Explore Paul David Smith - Epping's 17103 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[Mag_seven]

I remember travelling on a MK2 set from Glasgow to Rugby in 2003. Was mostly MK3 sets to Glasgow.

Mark 2 sets did make occasional appearances for whatever reason.

 

[route101]

Possible stepping-up for a failure?

I've seen a photo of a 2F set on the "Royal Scot" in about 2001/2. It lost 8 mins to Preston and a further 7 to Glasgow inclusive of using up recovery margins.

We were diverted via Bescot. As it was 2003 it was a West Coast Euston bound service, as the Cross Country MK2 sets had ceased in 2002. I did see MK2 sets now and then in Glasgow Central on Euston services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A few points..
The opening windows on a few Mk2 were done after they were withdrawn by Virgin. I believe it was so they could be used on steam charters with no ETH.

This is definitely not correct. Charter operators may have done more of them, but some were definitely in place when the rakes were in service with Virgin. I have seen them with my own eyes.

 

[Sprinter107]

I also remember travelling in the mark 2 coaches fitted with hopper windows when in service with Virgin Trains.

 

[Ken H]

One thing to consider while XC was moving to Voyagers was the railway was going through the hiatus caused by the Hatfield rail crash in Oct 2000. The gauge corner cracking episode. Must have caused mayhem with the implementation.

 

[Galvanize]

I also remember travelling in the mark 2 coaches fitted with hopper windows when in service with Virgin Trains.

Definitely also remember seeing them in VT days with Hoppers, though it was mainly FOs rather than TSOs that had them from memory. Guessing they were normally locked and only the Guard (Senior conductor/Train manager) or Catering Stewards could unlock them?

 

[hexagon789]

Definitely also remember seeing them in VT days with Hoppers, though it was mainly FOs rather than TSOs that had them from memory. Guessing they were normally locked and only the Guard (Senior conductor/Train manager) or Catering Stewards could unlock them?

I don't recall seeing any photos of FOs so equipped, only TSOs. That's not to say no FOs were treated though.

A look on Flickr wasn't especially helpful, all the photos are of one vehicle(!) - TSO 6179

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't recall seeing any photos of FOs so equipped, only TSOs. That's not to say no FOs were treated though.

A look on Flickr wasn't especially helpful, all the photos are of one vehicle(!) - TSO 6179

I think it was all vehicles in whichever set or sets were fitted. It definitely wasn't all sets.

 

[hexagon789]

I think it was all vehicles in whichever set or sets were fitted. It definitely wasn't all sets.

I'm struggling to find either written information or photos showing any vehicles other than 6179.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm struggling to find either written information or photos showing any vehicles other than 6179.

I think it was a mere handful of coaches on the VWC route as a trial. There should be details in the railway magazines at the time.

 

[SeanG]

I'm interested to know about why Virgin operated the Golden Valley Line ie Swindon - Gloucester.
What services did these form? Was it a simple Swindon - Gloucester shuttle or did they continue further afield?
Why was this service given to Virgin in the first place? I would assume that the line was a regional railways operated line pre-privatisation and so why wasn't this given to Wales & West?
Am I correct that 158s operated this line? Were any receive Virgin branding (I am aware none ever carried the full livery). Where were these based?

 

[Galvanize]

I'm interested to know about why Virgin operated the Golden Valley Line ie Swindon - Gloucester.
What services did these form? Was it a simple Swindon - Gloucester shuttle or did they continue further afield?
Why was this service given to Virgin in the first place? I would assume that the line was a regional railways operated line pre-privatisation and so why wasn't this given to Wales & West?
Am I correct that 158s operated this line? Were any receive Virgin branding (I am aware none ever carried the full livery). Where were these based?

Swindon-Gloucester-Cheltenham with 2 car 158s in the Regional Railways Express livery. I remember going on it one time on the way back from visiting my Great Grandmother who lived near Stroud. Think the stations on the Golden Valley were still managed by Wales&West/Wessex Trains though, which was what we were more used to on that line, after stepping off a First Great Western HST at Swindon.

The plan was to eventually run a London Paddington-Birmingham New Street service via Swindon and Stroud with shortened refurbished HSTs, but it fell by the way side. I can’t quite recall the reason why.

 

[Mag_seven]

The plan was to eventually run a London Paddington-Birmingham New Street service via Swindon and Stroud with shortened refurbished HSTs, but it fell by the way side. I can’t quite recall the reason why.

The Challenger project? I assume it all came apart at the same time as Operation Princess?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Challenger project? I assume it all came apart at the same time as Operation Princess?

It was probably doomed given that it was named after a space shuttle that, er, came apart.

 

[Strathclyder]

It was probably doomed given that it was named after a space shuttle that, er, came apart.

The name was certainly unfortunate for many reasons, that being just one of them.

 

[D854_Tiger]

Some of my earliest railway memories are of being taken trainspotting at Lichfield Trent Valley and Stafford by grandparents in the late 90s, and watching the procession of loco hauled expresses storm through.

A few questions in the period:

- My vague memory of the time is that 86s and mk2s were more or less entirely confined to Cross Country workings, but I think that's wrong: does anybody know "how" wrong I am?

- As a child spotter, it seemed that it was almost random as to whether expresses were allocated class 87 or 90. Did the locos tend to stay assigned to given routes, or was it a true common pool?

- What would HST workings at the time have looked like?

- And finally: I have a perception that coaching stock rakes would be a complete hodgepodge of Intercity and Virgin liveried mk3s, but Flickr photos seem to suggest that, at least for mk3s, whole rakes would be formed up in a single livery (not the case for mk2s). Does anybody have any reminisces of this?

Virgin and BR before them certainly sent XC HSTs to Scotland, I remember catching one to Carlisle.

There were also some rather interesting XC workings to Scotland that were routed via Manchester, in those days a mk2 half set and class 47, with the class 86 taking over at Preston.

A favourite train of mine was the last service of the day from Edinburgh to New Street, class 86 and a mk2 half set, for a while the timetable was very limited stop, Haymarket - Carlisle - Preston - Crewe - Wolverhampton - Birmingham.

Always a ten minute wait at Preston, for a fresh driver, caused by early running, needless to say the drivers were always very keen, I'm guessing because they were on their way home.

Virgin's mk3 sets could and did turn up on West Midlands workings, I was commuting down to London at the time and my regular train was a mk3 (pushed by class 90), apparently its return working north from Euston was the Royal Scot.

A Euston - Manchester mk3 set was borrowed on Summer Saturdays for a Manchester - Penzance and return, hauled by class 47 from New Street.

Most West Midlands - Euston trains were mk2 sets pushed pulled by class 86/87 and, yes, very much a self contained operation.

Basically, in those days XC workings on nearly all their routes alternated between a HST or a mk2 half set (class 47 or class 86), the HSTs working most of the longer journeys.

On the North East run alternate trains reversed at York (they were the 47 + mk2) or Newcastle (HST), similar on the West Country services HST through to Plymouth class 47 terminating at Bristol. Then one day some bright spark at Virgin realised the York terminators could extend to Newcastle, within the existing timings, as, unlike at York, no run-round was required.

Wonderful stuff, a 47 given the beans down the East Coast main line.

 

[jfollows]

A favourite train of mine was the last service of the day from Edinburgh to New Street, class 86 and a mk2 half set, for a while the timetable was very limited stop, Haymarket - Carlisle - Preston - Crewe - Wolverhampton - Birmingham.

Likewise for me, although when I used it it had more stops. 1M35 17:10 Edinburgh to New Street E245 in 1999, for example, although I also remember that it ended up being a service from Edinburgh to Derby via Birmingham when it was still locomotive+stock. If I was lucky I was in the FO behind the engine, and on a nice summer evening it was a nice run ..... at the time I was headed to Manchester so probably changed at Preston or Warrington - I preferred the latter if the connections were good.
EDIT 1M35 was Edinburgh-Birmingham-Derby SX in the 24/9/00 to 19/5/01 timetable. It called at Lockerbie then so it definitely wasn't a limited stop service any more.

 

[Ken H]

...

There were also some rather interesting XC workings to Scotland that were routed via Manchester, in those days a mk2 half set and class 47, with the class 86 taking over at Preston.

I remember catching an XC Scotland - Brum train from the through platforms at Man Picc. Would have been 95-96, and about 4 ish, and it went via Stoke. 47 + Mk2's There was a 309 to Brum via Crewe a little before which I caught a few times if I was quick escaping from work and the trams were being kind to me.

 

[D854_Tiger]

Some of my earliest railway memories are of being taken trainspotting at Lichfield Trent Valley and Stafford by grandparents in the late 90s, and watching the procession of loco hauled expresses storm through.

A few questions in the period:

- My vague memory of the time is that 86s and mk2s were more or less entirely confined to Cross Country workings, but I think that's wrong: does anybody know "how" wrong I am?

- As a child spotter, it seemed that it was almost random as to whether expresses were allocated class 87 or 90. Did the locos tend to stay assigned to given routes, or was it a true common pool?

- What would HST workings at the time have looked like?

- And finally: I have a perception that coaching stock rakes would be a complete hodgepodge of Intercity and Virgin liveried mk3s, but Flickr photos seem to suggest that, at least for mk3s, whole rakes would be formed up in a single livery (not the case for mk2s). Does anybody have any reminisces of this?

I seem to remember Virgin also inherited some class 158s doing something or other but I know they were never put into Virgin livery

Probably the shame of it they were only two car.

I think we just have to remember the Summer SO services to the south coast, also the daily XCs to Brighton.

A 47 to Weymouth on Saturdays, a HST to Portsmouth Harbour (via the direct line) and a Liverpool to Dover Western Docks service routed one way via the WCML rather than Oxford.

That last one morphed into a Manchester - Ramsgate, working once the Channel Tunnel opened, it was always nearly empty then one day a Deltic was put on it and you couldn't get a seat for love or money.

I had a nice day out when it went to Western Docks, I'm not sure if Virgin were in charge then, first class compartment immediately behind the compartment, just beyond Willsden, on the West London line. they did a crew change, needless to say the Merseyside guard was none too pleased about the location, much effing and blinding, he didn't seem to know where we were.

Then there we sat for twenty minutes, all alone, until a relief crew appeared in the distance.

On the hottest day of the year, armed with a Supersaver to Shanklin the HST took me to Portsmouth and then ferry across the water to the IOW steam railway where, unbeknown to me, it was Gala day, great day, home via London.

I seem to remember Virgin also inherited some class 158s doing something or other but I know they were never put into Virgin livery

Probably the shame of it they were only two car.

I think we just have to remember the Summer SO services to the south coast, also the daily XCs to Brighton.

A 47 to Weymouth on Saturdays, a HST to Portsmouth Harbour (via the direct line) and a Liverpool to Dover Western Docks service routed one way via the WCML rather than Oxford.

That last one morphed into a Manchester - Ramsgate, working once the Channel Tunnel opened, it was always nearly empty then one day a Deltic was put on it and you couldn't get a seat for love or money.

I had a nice day out when it went to Western Docks, I'm not sure if Virgin were in charge then, first class compartment immediately behind the compartment, just beyond Willsden, on the West London line. they did a crew change, needless to say the Merseyside guard was none too pleased about the location, much effing and blinding, he didn't seem to know where we were.

Then there we sat for twenty minutes, all alone, until a relief crew appeared in the distance.

On the hottest day of the year, armed with a Supersaver to Shanklin the HST took me to Portsmouth and then ferry across the water to the IOW steam railway where, unbeknown to me, it was Gala day, great day, home via London.

P.S. HST to Newquay there and back in a day, by September most the passenger demand had thinned out, a real novelty single track branch line in a HST.


Are we allowed to mention the five car Operation Princess HSTs, designed to keep to the Voyager timings, they went like stink.

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to remember Virgin also inherited some class 158s doing something or other but I know they were never put into Virgin livery

They were 158747-751, inherited directly from XC under BR, used originally on the Edinburgh-Manchester Airport service.

They were fitted out under BR with a non-standard interior with more luggage space and higher quality 2+1 First Class.

 

[Ex-controller]

Predates virgin but I recall mid 1990s Cross Country HSTs that ran Edinburgh - Glasgow Central - WCML - SW England which called at Motherwell twice.

These were known as ‘Voyager’ services, obviously well before actual Voyager units came on the scene or were even considered.

Can also recall the original Scotland to Manchester Airport services - similar to todays TPE route - serving Edinburgh using class 158s. I think these predated Virgin too, but we’re operated by Intercity West Coast as it was then. I recall one even turning up in Glasgow Central to work a service to Lockerbie during engineering work. No idea where they were based or what units were in the pool, or if they were even ‘hired’ from elsewhere.

EDIT: Hexagon has part answered above.