Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[strawbrick]

I have received the following e-mail from VTEC:

"It has been announced today that on the 24th June 2018 the East Coast Main Line will transition to be operated by LNER - London North Eastern Railway.
The service will continue to run as normal. Your travel plans won’t be affected and all train times and customer experience will remain the same.
Any tickets you have already purchased for Virgin Trains East Coast will be valid with LNER and you can continue to purchase tickets as normal.
We’ve loved serving you for the last three years and know the business is in a really good position thanks to the positive transformation we’ve started.

Kind regards

The Virgin Trains East Coast team

If "the business is in a really good position thanks to the positive transformation we’ve started" why has it folded?

 

[ainsworth74]

If "the business is in a really good position thanks to the positive transformation we’ve started" why has it folded?

Because even though the Emperors New Clothes have been fully revealed to be fake VTEC still can't possibly accept the position and go quietly into the night.

 

[jfisher21]

the line is fundamentally profitable - it was simply that the premium payments to dft took it into the red

 

[SteveP29]

I was actually expecting a generic 'east coast trains' brand, to slap onto the current VTEC livery

Weren't all the trains repainted in that awful base grey/ siilver, so wouldn't it just be a case of peeling off the vinyl?

I don't see how. I had issues with online bookings when EC transferred to VTEC. Things can go wrong with technology.

I didn't, thankfully

but what are the chances of a jobsworth guard saying "this is not a VTEC train"?

I suspect there'll just be a hearty chuckle and relief that he/ she isn't part of the Virgin empire any more

 

[warriorofrovac]

Could someone please explain why there is a general impression (especially among twitter users) that people seem to think that they'll wake up on the 24th June and the ECML will suddenly be a golden unicorn handing out smiles and hugs to everyone?

It's the same front-line staff, same drivers, same managers (to the most extent) same rolling stock with the same defects and on-board issues, same caterers, broadly same timetable, same Network Rail infrastructure, same ticket prices. Surely any benefits are months in the making?

Are people just desperate to believe nationalisation is so good they've exaggerated everything in their minds?

I've seen twitter comments "my train is delayed again! nationalise" ..."she was rude to me, glad you're going" ... :/

 

[NSEFAN]

Could someone please explain why there is a general impression (especially among twitter users) that people seem to think that they'll wake up on the 24th June and the ECML will suddenly be a golden unicorn handing out smiles and hugs to everyone?

It's the same front-line staff, same drivers, same managers (to the most extent) same rolling stock with the same defects and on-board issues, same caterers, broadly same timetable, same Network Rail infrastructure, same ticket prices. Surely any benefits are months in the making?

Are people just desperate to believe nationalisation is so good they've exaggerated everything in their minds?

I've seen twitter comments "my train is delayed again! nationalise" ..."she was rude to me, glad you're going" ... :/

It's the same people who were scared that if First group had won the WCML franchise then Virgin would take those Pendos and First would bring in their tatty Dmus to replace them. It's just ignorance, which is partially wilful because having to actually think about things is too much effort for some people.

 

[Mathew S]

If "the business is in a really good position thanks to the positive transformation we’ve started" why has it folded?

It hasn't "folded" though. It's not unusual for companies working on large contracts (and they don't come much larger than in intercity rail franchise) to renegotiate terms if circumstances change, or things don't go according to plan. All that's happened here is that those renegotiations have resulted in the mutual decision to terminate the contract early rather than any of the other possible alternatives.
Nothing has "folded", to use that word. Whether some on this forum like it or not, events such as this are part of the normal course of delivering a large contract.

All of that is, of course, not to comment on why the contact needed regotiating in the first place.

 

[matt_world2004]

It hasn't "folded" though. It's not unusual for companies working on large contracts (and they don't come much larger than in intercity rail franchise) to renegotiate terms if circumstances change, or things don't go according to plan. All that's happened here is that those renegotiations have resulted in the mutual decision to terminate the contract early rather than any of the other possible alternatives.
Nothing has "folded", to use that word. Whether some on this forum like it or not, events such as this are part of the normal course of delivering a large contract.

All of that is, of course, not to comment on why the contact needed regotiating in the first place.

They didn't renegotiate it though they terminated it early

 

[AlterEgo]

As silly as this sounds, my worry is LNER removing the first class head cushions. They've got Virgin on so I imagine they'll disappear, but they are very comfortable and the seat headrest piece on its own is just so hard and uncomfortable.

Hopefully someone will ask Grayling about this at his next ministerial questions slot in the Commons.

 

[sprinterguy]

Could someone please explain why there is a general impression (especially among twitter users) that people seem to think that they'll wake up on the 24th June and the ECML will suddenly be a golden unicorn handing out smiles and hugs to everyone?

It's the same front-line staff, same drivers, same managers (to the most extent) same rolling stock with the same defects and on-board issues, same caterers, broadly same timetable, same Network Rail infrastructure, same ticket prices. Surely any benefits are months in the making?

Are people just desperate to believe nationalisation is so good they've exaggerated everything in their minds?

I've seen twitter comments "my train is delayed again! nationalise" ..."she was rude to me, glad you're going" ... :/

It's crackers, isn't it? You would think that by now the public would have realised that it's just new stickers on the same trains, and perhaps a different uniform for the staff, if they're lucky. Especially so soon after the last franchise award.

Although the less rational "renationalistas" are going to be unbearable now, when they see a brand new fleet of trains begin to be rolled out almost immediately after the franchise is taken back into public ownership, notwithstanding that it has in fact been years in the preparation and planning!

 

[AlterEgo]

One thing I'm very happy about is that we now have an operator subject to FoI again. This enabled the revelation of many documents we would not otherwise have had access to.

One thing I'm not so happy about is the fact that, as Virgin no longer have their brand plastered all over it, no doubt we will see many more private prosecutions again.

Agreed with you on the FOI aspect; a lot of useful documents came into the public domain during DOR's tenure.

However I don't recall East Coast being particularly prosecution-happy, so I think your fear there is potentially misplaced.

 

[Mathew S]

They didn't renegotiate it though they terminated it early

Exactly what I said; in this case both sides decided to terminate rather than renegotiate, presumably because there was no way they were ever going to agree new terms. Doesn't alter the fact that it's the polar opposite of a big deal, just a normal part of day to day business.

(Note: I'd agree that the reasons that the original contract broke down are a big deal indeed. The fact of the rengotiation/termination of a contract which had gone awry is barely worthy of comment.)

 

[3141]

Has anything been heard from Lord Adonis? On Tuesday evening he was twittering away and clearly expecting a different outcome from what's actually happened. He ought now to be telling us how pleased he is.

 

[Brummigrant]

Has anything been heard from Lord Adonis? On Tuesday evening he was twittering away and clearly expecting a different outcome from what's actually happened. He ought now to be telling us how pleased he is.

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/996724149757333505

Andrew Adonis‏ @Andrew_Adonis 21 hours ago
Ok, let me say that Chris Grayling has so far done the right thing on East Coast Rail. A lot of questions raised by his vague ‘public private partnership’ after 2020, but he is right to set up a state company as first step

 

[ainsworth74]

It's just ignorance, which is partially wilful because having to actually think about things is too much effort for some people.

It's crackers, isn't it? You would think that by now the public would have realised that it's just new stickers on the same trains, and perhaps a different uniform for the staff, if they're lucky. Especially so soon after the last franchise award.

I'm not sure how the general public can be expected to understand what is a fiendishly complicated system when I've yet to spot any mainstream media outlets getting into the nitty gritty of what a franchise changeover actually means (let alone the present changeover). Perhaps there is an element of wilful ignorance but for the most part it seems to me that there is no easy way for them get the information without actively seeking out a specialist publication like Rail or Modern Railways! Even this morning one of the BBC reports was talking about how the "East Coast franchise has been re-let" which isn't actually what's happened. So how John Smith is supposed to know what's going on is beyond me.

I had to explain all this to my mother and she's a pretty switched on person and it still took her quite a while to wrap her head around the whole idea of franchising and how it works. More amusingly her comment at the end of it was "well why do they bother if its the same staff and trains after a change?!"

 

[Emblematic]

Has anything been heard from Lord Adonis? On Tuesday evening he was twittering away and clearly expecting a different outcome from what's actually happened. He ought now to be telling us how pleased he is.

He was on the radio several times yesterday, still wittering on about bailouts, despite Roger Ford having ridiculed his argument early on the today programme

 

[warriorofrovac]

I'm not sure how the general public can be expected to understand what is a fiendishly complicated system when I've yet to spot any mainstream media outlets getting into the nitty gritty of what a franchise changeover actually means (let alone the present changeover). Perhaps there is an element of wilful ignorance but for the most part it seems to me that there is no easy way for them get the information without actively seeking out a specialist publication like Rail or Modern Railways! Even this morning one of the BBC reports was talking about how the "East Coast franchise has been re-let" which isn't actually what's happened. So how John Smith is supposed to know what's going on is beyond me.

I had to explain all this to my mother and she's a pretty switched on person and it still took her quite a while to wrap her head around the whole idea of franchising and how it works. More amusingly her comment at the end of it was "well why do they bother if its the same staff and trains after a change?!"

That's the problem with Social Media, people tweet whatever diatribe they can in 120 characters yet never take the effort to actually understand anything. The media doesn't help in that either, spinning their own agendas. Brexit all over again.

 

[sprinterguy]

More amusingly her comment at the end of it was "well why do they bother if its the same staff and trains after a change?!"

She makes a pertinent point.

I wouldn't expect any member of the general public to be able to wrap their heads around the intricacies of the franchising process, Christ knows I can't and I was once part of a bid team(!), but surely recent historical precedent on their own local line - The handover from East Coast to VTEC was hardly a quiet one from a publicity perspective - should suggest not to expect a great deal of immediate change.

 

[quantinghome]

the line is fundamentally profitable - it was simply that the premium payments to dft took it into the red

Yes it is profitable, sort of, but no way near as much as even sensible levels of premium payments would suggest. Once you take off the direct grant from government to Network Rail, it is only just profitable. See page 8 of this report:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/25757/rail-finance-statistical-release-2016-17.pdf
I very much doubt that any private company would be interested in running East Coast (track and trains) as a going concern without government subsidy.

 

[baz962]

It won't work that way. Any money taken for tickets purchased for travel after the transfer date will pass to the new operator. Standard practice on a change of operator for obvious reasons.

Is that not worse then , as in effect they could sell them for a penny each for after the change over and not lose anything

 

[Rail Blues]

I'm not sure how the general public can be expected to understand what is a fiendishly complicated system when I've yet to spot any mainstream media outlets getting into the nitty gritty of what a franchise changeover actually means (let alone the present changeover). Perhaps there is an element of wilful ignorance but for the most part it seems to me that there is no easy way for them get the information without actively seeking out a specialist publication like Rail or Modern Railways! Even this morning one of the BBC reports was talking about how the "East Coast franchise has been re-let" which isn't actually what's happened. So how John Smith is supposed to know what's going on is beyond me.

I had to explain all this to my mother and she's a pretty switched on person and it still took her quite a while to wrap her head around the whole idea of franchising and how it works. More amusingly her comment at the end of it was "well why do they bother if its the same staff and trains after a change?!"

Exactly, I've no real interest in aviation, so I have no real idea whether the plane I'm flying on is owned by easyjet or just leased by them. I don't know how the various alliances of airlines operate or which companies have slots at which airports and how many. All that really bothers me when I am traveling by plane is whether a plane turns up, it is relatively well maintained and the crew are helpful and pleasant.The whys and wherefores of ownership and broader operating practices of the airline are a mystery to me. I suspect most rail passengers feel the same.

 

[NSEFAN]

I'm not sure how the general public can be expected to understand what is a fiendishly complicated system when I've yet to spot any mainstream media outlets getting into the nitty gritty of what a franchise changeover actually means (let alone the present changeover). Perhaps there is an element of wilful ignorance but for the most part it seems to me that there is no easy way for them get the information without actively seeking out a specialist publication like Rail or Modern Railways! Even this morning one of the BBC reports was talking about how the "East Coast franchise has been re-let" which isn't actually what's happened. So how John Smith is supposed to know what's going on is beyond me.

I had to explain all this to my mother and she's a pretty switched on person and it still took her quite a while to wrap her head around the whole idea of franchising and how it works. More amusingly her comment at the end of it was "well why do they bother if its the same staff and trains after a change?!"

I've heard Tony Miles on the radio and TV before being interviewed about the railways. He often gives answers that are both factual and also easy for the public to understand. Perhaps we need more people like that going to the mainstream press, if nothing else to provide a good dose of reality to go alongside the highly spun statements from the DfT etc.

 

[FQTV]

It's the same people who were scared that if First group had won the WCML franchise then Virgin would take those Pendos and First would bring in their tatty Dmus to replace them. It's just ignorance, which is partially wilful because having to actually think about things is too much effort for some people.

It's crackers, isn't it? You would think that by now the public would have realised that it's just new stickers on the same trains, and perhaps a different uniform for the staff, if they're lucky. Especially so soon after the last franchise award.

Although the less rational "renationalistas" are going to be unbearable now, when they see a brand new fleet of trains begin to be rolled out almost immediately after the franchise is taken back into public ownership, notwithstanding that it has in fact been years in the preparation and planning!

I'd suggest that it's somewhat inevitable that a lot of users of a service will respond in a particular way to their experience of (public) East Coast, which is generally considered to have gone about its business with little fuss and delivered a level of service, compared to (private) Virgin Trains East Coast which has trumpeted superlatives at deafening volume while delivering a degraded level of service at higher prices to many regular users.

It's probably also inevitable that those with a particular political view would try to co-opt those who identify with those experiences to support their political aims.

So, while it's quite correct that not much changed when Virgin Trains East Coast first took over, and highly likely that not much will change when London and North Eastern Railway first takes over, the way that the new operator manages expectations has the potential to affect revenues and, of course, political views very significantly.

Which, of course, means that it's ironically in the Secretary of State's political interest to make sure that London and North Eastern Railway is just as bad as Virgin Trains East Coast.....

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Exactly, I've no real interest in aviation, so I have no real idea whether the plane I'm flying on is owned by easyjet or just leased by them. I don't know how the various alliances of airlines operate or which companies have slots at which airports and how many. All that really bothers me when I am traveling by plane is whether a plane turns up, it is relatively well maintained and the crew are helpful and pleasant.The whys and wherefores of ownership and broader operating practices of the airline are a mystery to me. I suspect most rail passengers feel the same.

In my experience, the problem doesn't simply come from not knowing about how the railway works - it's the lack of awareness from someone that they don't actually know anywhere near as much as they think they do, and then acting on that

Not knowing about how the railway works is fine. It's very complicated and those of us in the industry recognise that. But I think what is being referred to above is the arrogance of some customers on social media who refuse to listen to explanations and accuse everyone from a TOC of being liars if they don't tell them what they want to hear, regardless of whether or not it's true. So the knowledge isn't the problem - it's the opinion that's the problem, because it usually comes with a sense of ill-informed entitlement and unrealistically high expectations. It's classic Dunning-Kruger effect - the idea that people are usually nowhere near as informed about something as they think they are, unless they genuinely do know a lot about it, at which point they underestimate how much they know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

It reminds me of this fantastic Stewart Lee gag:

 

[infobleep]

Got an e-mail from VTEC about the change.
One line states

business is in a really good position thanks to the positive transformation we’ve started.

If that is the case why aren't the government allowing them to continue their positive transformation?

They also state the following:

The service will continue to run as normal. Your travel plans won’t be affected and all train times and customer experience will remain the same.

It's nice to know they feel the customer experience will remain the same. Some people actually would like it to improve.

 

[cuccir]

Has anything been heard from Lord Adonis? On Tuesday evening he was twittering away and clearly expecting a different outcome from what's actually happened. He ought now to be telling us how pleased he is.

He has written an article in the Guardian on the topic today. I won't post the full thing (link here) as it would seem to add lots of words to an already long thread, but essentially he is happy with the decision but says that it should have come sooner, and he's against automatic privatization in 2020 (or whenever). His view is that some version of direct operated railways should bid for franchises against private companies. Private companies get the franchise if they can provide a better offer than the state.

Britain’s railways don’t need to be wholly nationalised and they don’t need to be operated solely by private companies. Both of these myopias harm our ability to get the best deal for passengers. A mixed market – where public companies like the one Chris Grayling has just (reluctantly) created compete with the private sector – can deliver the best deal for fare-payers and taxpayers alike.

While there's a lot to dislike about Adonis, I find it hard to disagree with this perspective.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'd definitely agree that having DOR being allowed to make bids is a good idea. Proof in the pudding etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Andy McDonald (Labour Shadow Transport Minister) was on Newsnight last night.
His stunning solution to rail's problems was for the annual fares rise to be limited to CPI rather than RPI.
So not so revolutionary after all.
Presumably pay rises would be similarly limited.

 

[thenorthern]

So far the only company to complete a full franchise term successfully is GNER from 1996 until 2005, back then GNER was very popular and ran the services quite well. Maybe its time that HM Government looks at what worked then for a future franchise.

 

[cjmillsnun]

At that time GNER had a recently renewed track, recently renewed signalling and a largely new fleet.