Virgin Trains East Coast plan 'customer zones' + RMT strike action SUSPENDED

[gavin]

Virgin Trains EC have plans to introduce 'customer zones' to 8 stations, allowing staff to sell tickets through hand held machines, which in turn don't offer the cheapest tickets and close the current travel centers

This could see up to 46 jobs lost on a voluntary basis (31 travel centre and 15 station staff)

The stations that could be affected are; London King's Cross, Edinburgh, Peterborough, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds, York and Newcastle

The Transport Salaried Staffs Association have warned industrial action could take place

 

[WatcherZero]

Staff will be able to sell them from handheld but the point is that the staff will be showing customers how to use TVM's.

Teach a man to fish argument.

 

[AlterEgo]

What tickets do the handheld machines not sell, and how many passengers require those types of tickets on a daily basis?

I note this is also a franchise commitment from VTEC.

 

[ainsworth74]

I assume APs will be the big one and plenty of people still seem to buy them from ticket offices (though I'm sure that number is falling).

 

[bb21]

I suppose Advances could not be sold in those cases, so forcing the customer to either book online or use a different ticket office. Monthly or longer season ticket renewals is another one I can think of, also some complex requests which probably don't get asked very often.

Seems like a strange franchise commitment to me closing ticket offices, unless they are planning on using mobile machines that can connect to the reservation system in real time.

 

[skyhigh]

Interesting that there's nothing about Stevenage - I would have thought with the GTR and Virgin ticket offices next door to each other it would be one of the better places to attempt this, although maybe the station layout doesn't lend itself well to it.

Thinking about it, I seem to remember that GTR were planning to close their ticket office so maybe the idea was the Virgin one would stay instead. Having said that I haven't seen anything recently about the changes GTR were planning to make across their network, so maybe they've been dropped?

 

[AlterEgo]

I suppose Advances could not be sold in those cases, so forcing the customer to either book online or use a different ticket office. Monthly or longer season ticket renewals is another one I can think of, also some complex requests which probably don't get asked very often.

Seems like a strange franchise commitment to me closing ticket offices, unless they are planning on using mobile machines that can connect to the reservation system in real time.

Are they closing ticket offices completely at those locations, or just reducing the size and redeploying staff?

 

[route:oxford]

I suppose Advances could not be sold in those cases, so forcing the customer to either book online or use a different ticket office.

So why exactly would they be unable to sell advances from a handheld device when any member of the public can buy one from a handheld device?

Once seasons go over to smart-cards, there's no reason why they couldn't be sold from a hand-held device either and topped up with a tap.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't seen anything recently about the changes GTR were planning to make across their network, so maybe they've been dropped?

Paused I think. Most likely hoping people will forget, or think that GTR actually gave up on the proposals, and not fight the changes next time.

My rather limited experience of GTR/FCC staff at Stevenage has not been good. The (even more) limited experience with DOR/VTEC staff has been excellent.

I wouldn't want either offices closed, but I know that I'd likely prefer to keep Virgin there if I had to choose.

 

[johnnychips]

So the staff, who at the moment are comfortably seated, with access to a till, computer with all options available, a phone if they need to ring for advice, will be standing, have a change-belt like a Belgian waiter and not be able to access all ticket info, nor sell them all. Presumably they will be paid the same. Progress?

This sounds bad enough at Donny, but Kings X and Edinburgh?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What tickets do the handheld machines not sell, and how many passengers require those types of tickets on a daily basis?

I note this is also a franchise commitment from VTEC.

According to a VTEC staff brief the new "DORIS" machines can issue almost anything currently available onboard, some exceptions include:

• Rovers and Rangers
• Cross London tickets
• London Zonal Tickets
• TfL tickets (Travelcards, Underground gate passes, etc)
• Third Party add-ons (PlusBus, Tyne & Wear Metro, etc)

In the case of travel around London, "DORIS" can issue a "Ticket Purchase Receipt" which contains an 8 digit ToD reference code and details of the ticket purchased. If paid for by card, the purchaser can go to a TVM to collect a proper ticket, if paid by other means they will need to go to a travel centre.

 

[sheff1]

In the case of travel around London, "DORIS" can issue a "Ticket Purchase Receipt" which contains an 8 digit ToD reference code and details of the ticket purchased. If paid for by card, the purchaser can go to a TVM to collect a proper ticket, if paid by other means they will need to go to a travel centre.

So VTEC are going to close travel centres (including at Kings Cross) and then start issuing receipts which people have to take to a travel centre to exchange for a ticket. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Hadders]

Interesting that there's nothing about Stevenage - I would have thought with the GTR and Virgin ticket offices next door to each other it would be one of the better places to attempt this, although maybe the station layout doesn't lend itself well to it.

Thinking about it, I seem to remember that GTR were planning to close their ticket office so maybe the idea was the Virgin one would stay instead. Having said that I haven't seen anything recently about the changes GTR were planning to make across their network, so maybe they've been dropped?

Stevenage is my local station and the VTEC ticket office is excellent.

I know that they were considering extending the opening hours when GTR first announced their ticket office closure proposals.

GTR is the lead retailer at Stevenage so I wonder if this has anything to do with it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I never thought ticketing at Edinburgh could get any worse but clearly its about to. I wonder if we'll see a new Scotrail office open as TS and Scotrail woant want their precious tourists facing this farse?

 

[johntea]

The only 'customer zone' I use is the online one where I can book my tickets without massive queues of people in front!

Using my phone, I can even book my tickets en route and pick them up from a TVM moments later. I appreciate not everyone will have the luxary of such technology but for me it is pretty much the only way I do my ticket purchasing now!

 

[AlterEgo]

Do the DORIS machines have access to a journey planner?

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to a VTEC staff brief the new "DORIS" machines can issue almost anything currently available onboard, some exceptions include:

• Rovers and Rangers
• Cross London tickets
• London Zonal Tickets
• TfL tickets (Travelcards, Underground gate passes, etc)
• Third Party add-ons (PlusBus, Tyne & Wear Metro, etc)

So the main tickets that you, err, have to go to a ticket office for.

That's "sensible".

It wouldn't be the proverbial rocket science, though, to allow TVMs to issue all those.

 

[IanXC]

I can't see how they can do this without retaining 1/2 traditional ticket selling counter positions in each location. If they don't it will be interesting to see how they meet their obligations under the TSA.

 

[Ze Random One]

I'm not sure the DfT give two hoots about making franchisees honour the TSA.

After all, if they did, they'd insist that every ticket office closure is accompanied by enhancing ticket machines to sell all walkup tickets (certainly any that don't require a form to be processed)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As it stands, the machines at VTEC stations don't sell Open access operators tickets, so are useless for some.

 

[96tommy]

Such a poor decision by VTEC in my eyes. Handheld machines often seem slow and unreliable and as many have said, what is the point if you need to buy a London ticket etc then have to go to another machine to get your ticket.

Hopefully a few ticket offices are kept.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As it stands, the machines at VTEC stations don't sell Open access operators tickets, so are useless for some.

Isn't that a breach of impartial retailing?

 

[LexyBoy]

Oh dear. I wonder whether these future Customer Zone Assistance Managers will know all route and time restrictions off by heart in order that they can guide customers to the correct ticket on the TVM? Or will they play safe and go for Off Peak rather than the Super Off Peak, or Any Permitted where a Via Bradford ticket might do? Maybe they'll have a tablet to check the customer's planned journey - how much longer will that take than having a proper desktop TIS?

 

[AlterEgo]

Such a poor decision by VTEC in my eyes. Handheld machines often seem slow and unreliable and as many have said, what is the point if you need to buy a London ticket etc then have to go to another machine to get your ticket.

Hopefully a few ticket offices are kept.

It'll force people to use the machines and become familiar with them. At least, that's probably their thinking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't that a breach of impartial retailing?

No. A TVM is not required to retail impartially.

It is only booking offices which must retail impartially.

Floor walkers are likely not to be required to retail impartially under the TSA as it stands.

The DfT and ORR have moved far too slowly to accommodate this sort of innovation, leaving big loopholes in regulation and therefore loopholes in consumer protection.

I have a few contacts in both departments and I'll be interested to hear how they view it.

 

[Ze Random One]

Isn't that a breach of impartial retailing?

AFAICT, only proper Ticket Offices are covered by the impartiality requirements. Remember that the rules were written when most ticket machines could only sell a limited range of tickets to a limited range of destinations, long before the ubiquitous portable computing technology we have now.

It's why the machines still are mostly unable to sell a ticket from another station, or rovers/rangers or offpeak tickets during the peak, or tickets for dates after tomorrow

 

[jon0844]

No wonder TOCs want to close ticket offices and direct people to machines then.

 

[gavin]

The RMT are balloting staff for strike action over jobs and working conditions in addition to closing ticket offices the RMT says they want to make cuts to on-board train staff and management and supervisory roles

The ballot result is due on August 9th - how much noticed is needed ahead of any strikes taking place?

 

[Carntyne]

The RMT are balloting staff for strike action over jobs and working conditions in addition to closing ticket offices the RMT says they want to make cuts to on-board train staff and management and supervisory roles

The ballot result is due on August 9th - how much noticed is needed ahead of any strikes taking place?

7 days.

 

[SeanG]

What about buying railcards etc?
And IIRC some rovers/rangers aren't available at TVMs

 

[Skimble19]

Paused I think. Most likely hoping people will forget, or think that GTR actually gave up on the proposals, and not fight the changes next time.

My rather limited experience of GTR/FCC staff at Stevenage has not been good. The (even more) limited experience with DOR/VTEC staff has been excellent.

I wouldn't want either offices closed, but I know that I'd likely prefer to keep Virgin there if I had to choose.

It's not paused, it's just having a phased introduction instead. Changes are being made, but don't expect them to be massive. Must admit I'm surprised stevenage isn't on the list, altho with the GN ticket office closing at 10:30 (or 11:00 can't remember exaxtly) and closed entirely at weekends it's good at least one will still be open a bit later.

 

[6Gman]

At my local station there used to be a Travel Centre and a Booking Office.

The TC was for enquiries, advanced bookings, buying railcards etc.

The BO offered a (reasonably) fast-moving queue of people buying tickets for same-day travel.

Now we have only a BO at which you queue (wanting to buy a ticket for a train in ten minutes) while somebody fills in the forms for a railcard or discusses options for travel to Penzance a week on Tuesday, or "it could be Wednesday if there's a cheaper ticket available and what if we came back on the Saturday instead of the Friday, and would we be better using the TwoTogether or if I used my Over 60s Railcard and my husband used an Advance ...."

They call it progress.