Virgin West Coast Open Access Application

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by andyj158, 11 Jun 2019.

  1. Japan0913

    Japan0913 On Moderation

    Messages:
    231
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2017
    Is it certain that the MTR consortium won the WestcoastPartnership?
     
  2. CosherB

    CosherB On Moderation

    Messages:
    1,846
    Joined:
    5 Jun 2012
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Remember who the other bidders are (or were)? MTR have it in the bag.
     
  3. Japan0913

    Japan0913 On Moderation

    Messages:
    231
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2017
    FirstGroup + Trenitalia.
    I heard that FirstGroup has a general meeting of shareholders on the 25d of this month.
     
    Last edited: 20 Jun 2019
  4. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    19,943
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    This isn't the thread to discuss the award of the West Coast Partnership nor on any future rolling stock on the West Coast Partnership. Please get back onto the topic.
     
  5. Edders23

    Edders23 Member

    Messages:
    154
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2018

    I think there might be a few class 91's and mk4's that could be saved from the scrapyard
     
  6. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,920
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    If Virgin use IC225 sets it will only be until Alstom produces a new (probably tilting) train for the WCML.
    Neither Alstom nor SNCF will be interested in running old BR stock long term as a secondary operator (even if "Alstom" built it in the first place).
     
  7. KashmireHawker

    KashmireHawker Member

    Messages:
    267
    Joined:
    25 Jan 2016
    Location:
    Sheffield / Wolverhampton
  8. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,463
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    With regards to this application, how long is it likely to take for the ORR to give their decision? Will other stakeholders have to be consulted?

    Is it known for sure the train stock which is being proposed? The quote the opening poster has posted seems to suggest the trains will be the 'most advanced'. Does this suggest new build stock? Could it be Polaris trains or a new build tilting stock from Alstom perhaps?

    Would the trains have to be taken on by a ROSCO? Would there be firm guarantees on their use if the application was only approved until say HS2 as a complete example?
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    19,872
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    It says in the VT press release (linked from post #128) that the “service” will be the most advanced, not the trains as such. The PR there is all about the booking system, with a seat for everyone, as proposed by them recently.
     
  10. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,920
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Can we let Polaris die? It never existed.
    If Alstom is involved it will be their stock.
    ORR and NR will take many months to respond, they will institute various investigations on technical feasibility, commercial viability, and franchise TOC/DfT objections.
    No stock will be committed before then.
    It's kite-flying, trying to influence the way franchising turns out after the Williams review, and seeking to keep Virgin/Stagecoach (and Alstom/SNCF) in the running for HS2.
     
  11. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,486
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2010
    Would Virgin be able to run the 91s at 140mph?

    Could the ROSCO charge a premium for using them, knowing they are the only suitable stock to run on that line?

    Interesting times ahead.
     
    Last edited: 20 Jun 2019
  12. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,920
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    No. They don't have cab signalling, and NR doesn't offer speeds above 125mph anywhere.
    They will be limited to 110mph on the WCML as they don't tilt (and never will).
    The ROSCO won't get a premium for 30-year-old stock otherwise lying up in sidings.
     
  13. takno

    takno Established Member

    Messages:
    1,387
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2016
    Not to mention that while they were built for 140mph running, they now have the status of clapped out old bangers that have never done 140 in fleet service, and are increasingly difficult to get spares for and keep running at 125. Even with the spares acquired from cutting half of them up, they will be up against it keeping them running at 110
     
  14. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2011
    The blurb I’ve read at work specifically mentions partnership with Alstom amongst others. Timings are showing as xx36 departures from Euston. A 110mph service will clearly disrupt the xx40 service, especially with xx33 services in front stopping at Rugby, an xx40 can be checked at Rugby for this, so it would be interesting to see NR’s response to this and whoever takes over the WCP.
     
  15. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,463
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    Possibly planning an overtaking move somewhere along the way as otherwise the xx40 will be up the back of an xx36 doing 110mph.
     
  16. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    9,022
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    An xx40 gets checked by the xx33? I know the approach control into P1 at Rugby is ridiculous but Im surprised it does that. The Liverpool at xx07 is usually the worst affected by the xx03.
     
  17. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,463
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    If xx33 GNWR and potentially xx36 are used is there room left for performance in the VHF timetable at all?
     
  18. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,250
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    Could Alstom get a new tilting train fleet ready for May 2021? That seems extremely optimistic!
     
  19. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2011
    Yep. I’ve worked many xx33 services and seen a xx40 service accelerate past me on the middle road at Rugby. If everything runs to time then it should be fine, but as we all know, a few minutes delay to anything in front of these services has the inevitable knock on effect.
     
  20. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    9,022
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    You must be late on the 1733 then as its timed in front of the 1740 all the way to Stafford where its overtaken, unless you are on a different one?
     
  21. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

    Messages:
    2,060
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2011
    It seems to change with the weather where were booked out. We used to have it pass us at Rugby or Stafford depending on TT used. but on numerous occasions it’s either been Crewe or Rugby. All depends on what kind of run xx23 gets and how long it’s at Watford. That is what always causes the knock on.
     
  22. TheGrew

    TheGrew Member

    Messages:
    247
    Joined:
    31 Jul 2012
    How about a new electric locomotive + mk4 rolling stock with the tilt conversion they were meant to have originally ;)
     
  23. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,463
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    That's assuming the departure is running at 125. If this new service happens to be 110mph non tilt then it's going to need an overtake well before Rugby as far as I can see?

    I think most would agree it's fairly certain mk4s will not get a tilt conversion. What would be the point in that sort of spend when new trains could probably be purchased with faster acceleration and modern facilities? Also, at a guess, it may mean all sorts of new modern standards would then have to be applied to mk4s, such as a new standard of interior with 2019 approved new build 125mph seats, i.e. class 80x seats.
     
  24. TrainBoy98

    TrainBoy98 Member

    Messages:
    345
    Joined:
    19 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Worthing
    Also, if they plan on using new stock, with the way orders have been late recently, there's no way they could have new-builds ready for their planned 2021 launch surely?
     
  25. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,863
    Joined:
    2 Oct 2009
    Location:
    East Anglia
    Got to take my hat off to Virgin's PR team after this superb advertisement in today's newspapers.
     

    Attached Files:

  26. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

    Messages:
    2,003
    Joined:
    10 Feb 2011
    Which is much more reasonable when other trains are available. It would be inappropriate for franchised services that lack an alternative.
     
  27. takno

    takno Established Member

    Messages:
    1,387
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2016
    Which in itself is fine, but if they aren't going to use their timetable slot to help franchised passengers get home when the service is a mess, why should the franchise holder help their passengers get home if their train is cancelled? The upshot is that Virgin's precious and coddled passengers are going to end up on buses every time there's a shortage in their small pool of drivers, or when one of their antique trains breaks down, or if there's just delays on the line.

    It was depressing enough watching Hull trains treating their customers like cattle last year, diluting the rail brand and making everybody more miserable. The idea of seeing Virgin trying to do it and scale and telling us we've been asking for it is really quite grim
     
  28. diffident

    diffident Member

    Messages:
    169
    Joined:
    19 Feb 2018
    Location:
    West Midlands
    That is a really really good ad there from Virgin's PR folks!! Had me chuckling when I just saw it!
     
  29. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    12,920
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Is the "Chris" Chris Green maybe? (Who did as much as anybody to make VT what it is in a railway sense).
    Or is he like the eponymous British Gas shareholder "Sid"?
     
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,743
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Er, it's obviously Chris "Failing" Grayling.
     

Share This Page