Votes for 16

[Bromley boy]

there is a lot of you!



You go on about people thinking for themselves and not having evil leftist views forced on them yet you regurgitate standard alt right snowflakery like "social justice worrier" and spouting on about a left wing conspiracy in educational establishments to turn children against brexit. I find that interesting.

It does tend to be those of a left wing persuasion who complain about "evil" right wing views.

There has been significant recent history of "no platforming" at many UK universities, and even perfectly moderate speakers such as Germaine Greer have been denied an audience. This appears to be creating an environment where any views other than the acceptable left of centre/feminist "norm" are shouted down.

This is a worrying development as, particularly in a university setting, the response to a bad argument should always be a better argument. The left would often prefer the lazy approach of shutting down the debate before it begins.

 

[Bromley boy]

Distrust ( hatred?) of Tories runs deep. We know what they are really like.

If allowing 16 year olds to votes keeps the Tories out i am all for it

This kind of talk is a case in point.

Why do you hate those whose views on political matters differ from yours .

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

there is a lot of you!



You go on about people thinking for themselves and not having evil leftist views forced on them yet you regurgitate standard alt right snowflakery like "social justice worrier" and spouting on about a left wing conspiracy in educational establishments to turn children against brexit. I find that interesting.

I'm genuinely not sure if you meant anything by the first point.

As for the term social justice warrior, it's not the property of the alt-right snowflakes. Just because I use it doesn't mean I'm part of them. Secondly, I'm not spouting about any left-wing conspiracy theories, I'm pointing out the fact that there is an overwhelming amount of left-wing teachers in schools and colleges. You've had different experiences, and that's fair enough, I'm not going to accuse you of spouting any conspiracy theories just because it doesn't match up with my findings. I'm not so, dare I say it... intolerant.

 

[KN1]

A recent survey found 8 in 10 university lecturers are left wing, I find it hard to believe it's only 8.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It does tend to be those of a left wing persuasion who complain about "evil" right wing views.

There has been significant recent history of "no platforming" at many UK universities, and even perfectly moderate speakers such as Germaine Greer have been denied an audience. This appears to be creating an environment where any views other than the acceptable left of centre/feminist "norm" are shouted down.

This is a worrying development as, particularly in a university setting, the response to a bad argument should always be a better argument. The left would often prefer the lazy approach of shutting down the debate before it begins.

I remember reading an article a while ago which said something about students being more worried about the right "not to be offended" rather than the actual right to free speech. It's worse in the United States though. There's the case of Yale University where a student was filmed shouting at a Professor because she felt it was no longer a safe space for her. She didn't care about college being an educational institution and saw it more as a home for herself. The basic rule for them is "diversity in all but opinion". Not only that, but several comedians no longer wish to perform on college campuses because, in the bluntest of words, the students are petulant crybabies. The ones who aren't aren't given any spotlight because, well, they're being shut down and kept silent. Rule of the loud minority it seems.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not going to accuse you of spouting any conspiracy theories just because it doesn't match up with my findings. I'm not so, dare I say it... intolerant.

I must say my observation of your posts on this thread are that they are reasonable, nuanced and well argued.

In return you’ve been accused of being:

- alt right
- a conspiracy theorist
- a youngster (whether you are young or not is irrelevant).

I believe this is exactly the kind of “no platforming” those on the left should try and avoid.

They should remember that not everything can be divided into “good and evil”. Just because someone has a different view to you doesn’t necessarily mean they are “extremist” or “alt right”.

It’s just that they happen to have arrived at a different conclusion.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I must say my observation of your posts on this thread are that they are reasonable, nuanced and well argued.

In return you’ve been accused of being:

- alt right
- a conspiracy theorist
- a youngster (whether you are young or not is irrelevant).

I believe this is exactly the kind of “no platforming” those on the left should try and avoid.

They should remember that not everything can be divided into “good and evil”. Just because someone has a different view to you doesn’t necessarily mean they are “extremist” or “alt right”.

It’s just that they happen to have arrived at a different conclusion.

Thanks for the words of support. I thought it might be interesting to note that I once thought as they did. I was once a college student with left-wing views and a love for Jeremy Corbyn and everything about him. That's how I know how they think. It's not a bad asset for political debates, though it is an unfortunate part of my history

 

[Bromley boy]

I remember reading an article a while ago which said something about students being more worried about the right "not to be offended" rather than the actual right to free speech. It's worse in the United States though. There's the case of Yale University where a student was filmed shouting at a Professor because she felt it was no longer a safe space for her. She didn't care about college being an educational institution and saw it more as a home for herself. The basic rule for them is "diversity in all but opinion". Not only that, but several comedians no longer wish to perform on college campuses because, in the bluntest of words, the students are petulant crybabies. The ones who aren't aren't given any spotlight because, well, they're being shut down and kept silent. Rule of the loud minority it seems.

Absolutely.

I read an article the other day about my old university (KCL) that recently held a debate on the legalisation or abortion in Ireland.

The anti abortion speakers were drowned out by a bunch of left wing agitators in the audience who chanted slogans at them.

This kind of suppression of free speech is ironically very similar to fascism. If your opinion is different you’re dismissed as evil/stupid/mad/ignorant, delete as appropriate.

The whole concept of a “safe space” really means “space where people can’t voice opinions naive left wing students disageee with”

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks for the words of support. I thought it might be interesting to note that I once thought as they did. I was once a college student with left-wing views and a love for Jeremy Corbyn and everything about him. That's how I know how they think. It's not a bad asset for political debates, though it is an unfortunate part of my history

Not at all.

Some would argue that’s a sign that you’ve grown up .

 

[KN1]

Safe space marshals !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...e-space-marshals-police-controversialspeaker/

King’s College has hired “safe space marshals” to police controversial speaker events on campus, it has emerged.

The university’s students' union employs the £12-an-hour officials to patrol meetings where there is a potential for audience members to be offended.

While on duty at an event, the marshals are expected to hand out leaflets detailing the students' union's Safe Space policy, and put up posters reminding students that “This is a Safe Space”.
They must be ready to take “immediate action” if anyone expresses opinions that breech the Safe Space policy. This could include derogatory comments about someone’s age, disability, marital or maternity or paternity status, race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, gender identity, trans status, socio-economic status, or ideology or culture.

Are all University students terrified of their own shadow ? why are they so weak and feeble minded that someone with a view different to their own upsets them so much ?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Absolutely.

I read an article the other day about my old university (KCL) held a debate on the legalisation or abortion in Ireland.

The anti abortion speakers were drowned out by a bunch of left wing agitators in the audience who chanted slogans at them.

This kind of suppression of free speech is ironically very similar to fascism. If your opinion is different you’re dismissed as evil/stupid/mad/ignorant, delete as appropriate.

The whole concept of a “safe space” really means “space where people can’t voice opinions left wing students disageee with”

Funnily enough I'm not inherently anti-abortion. I can see both sides and don't particularly have a set-in-stone opinion. But what makes this bigotry even worse is that it empowers the far right. A lot of people joined the alt right because they were so disillusioned with the left. It empowers groups like Britain First and the English Defence League who pretend to be moderate voices.

Not at all.

Some would argue that’s a sign that you’ve grown up .

Some might say I still have a bit of growing to do though...

Safe space marshals !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...e-space-marshals-police-controversialspeaker/



Are all University students terrified of their own shadow ? why are they so weak and feeble minded that someone with a view different to their own upsets them so much ?

I shall give this a read at one point

 

[Bromley boy]

Safe space marshals !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...e-space-marshals-police-controversialspeaker/



Are all University students terrified of their own shadow ? why are they so weak and feeble that someone with a view different to their own upsets them so much ?

Apparently they are. Although in my experience (a few years ago now) the people who busied themselves with student union activities were a predictable type, and didn’t speak for the vast majority of students, although they pretended to.

They must be ready to take “immediate action” if anyone expresses opinions that breech the Safe Space policy. This could include derogatory comments about someone’s age, disability, marital or maternity or paternity status, race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, gender identity, trans status, socio-economic status, or ideology or culture.

So it seems KCL students are no longer allowed to disagree with anyone about anything in case it offends them.

To think, it was once respected as a good university!

Terrifying.

EDIT: and supposing I walk into a KCL common room and loudly proclaim “it is my religious belief that homosexuals should be thrown from buildings”.*

What would the safe space marshalls do then?!

The whole thing strikes me as pathetically intellectually lazy.

*I have no such religious belief.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

EDIT: and supposing I walk into a KCL common room and loudly proclaim “it is my religious belief that homosexuals should be thrown from buildings”.*

What would the safe space marshalls do then?!

That depends. If you're Christian you will be immediately thrown off campus and denounced a bigoted homophobe with backwards 7th century views. If you're Muslim then you will immediately be regarded as an example of cultural enrichment from a beautiful peaceful religion unfairly blamed for terrorist attacks that it inspires.

PS. I think the Abrahamic religions are somewhat cancerous and not compatible with today's western values, but I respect your right to disagree and believe whatever you want. Your rights only end where other's rights begin.

 

[KN1]

Universities are already lost, schools are going the same way.

Safe spaces and no-platforming policies at universities are "fundamentally offensive",

Chris Patten Oxford University's chancellor said this 2 days ago.

 

[Bromley boy]

That depends. If you're Christian you will be immediately thrown off campus and denounced a bigoted homophobe with backwards 7th century views. If you're Muslim then you will immediately be regarded as an example of cultural enrichment from a beautiful peaceful religion unfairly blamed for terrorist attacks that it inspires.

PS. I think the Abrahamic religions are somewhat cancerous and not compatible with today's western values, but I respect your right to disagree and believe whatever you want. Your rights only end where other's rights begin.

I agree with every syllable, of every word, of the above posting! That’s a rare thing on these forums!

Bravo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has been significant recent history of "no platforming" at many UK universities, and even perfectly moderate speakers such as Germaine Greer have been denied an audience. This appears to be creating an environment where any views other than the acceptable left of centre/feminist "norm" are shouted down.

While I am moderate and slightly left of centre politically (by and large) I must admit I really dislike this and think it insults the intelligence of the students of our great educational bodies. Let anyone speak, and let the thinking man[1] decide and speak in reply - is that kind of debate not the whole basis of true democracy?

[1] Or woman, or gender-fluid person, or whatever; it's a figure of speech.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I agree with every syllable, of every word, of the above posting! That’s a rare thing on these forums!

Bravo.

Time to add that to my list of achievements... I'm nearly a quarter of the way down the first page

 

[trash80]

The restrictions on free speech are wrong though the number of students who particulate in debates (or any society or extracurricular activity for that matter) is pretty small to be honest so i doubt "lefty" politics at uni influences that many.

I think votes for 16 year olds is a good idea but should be part of a complete overhaul of our crumbling political system.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The restrictions on free speech are wrong though the number of students who particulate in debates (or any society or extracurricular activity for that matter) is pretty small to be honest so i doubt "lefty" politics at uni influences that many.

I think votes for 16 year olds is a good idea but should be part of a complete overhaul of our crumbling political system.

Thanks for reminding us what the thread's about. This isn't the first time today I've went off topic in a thread :P

 

[deltic]

I'm all in favour of 16 year olds being allowed the vote - if you can be asked to die for your country then you have the right to vote for its leaders. Giving people responsibilities tends to lead them to be more responsible.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I'm all in favour of 16 year olds being allowed the vote - if you can be asked to die for your country then you have the right to vote for its leaders. Giving people responsibilities tends to lead them to be more responsible.

On the same note, I also think that if you can die for your country and see bloody wars in person, then either reduce the age rating with Call of Duty games, or increase the age limit on those who can go into conflict. Going into the army is different than fighting a war. Same for sex. Either lower the age to watch pornography or increase the age of consent and sexual intercourse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the same note, I also think that if you can die for your country and see bloody wars in person, then either reduce the age rating with Call of Duty games, or increase the age limit on those who can go into conflict. Going into the army is different than fighting a war. Same for sex. Either lower the age to watch pornography or increase the age of consent and sexual intercourse.

The trend does seem to be to standardise everything on 18, there aren't many key things left (age of consent and driving are the main two).

 

[Bromley boy]

The trend does seem to be to standardise everything on 18, there aren't many key things left (age of consent and driving are the main two).

Is it still possible to join the army, in a combat role, at age 16?

 

[DarloRich]

This kind of talk is a case in point.

Why do you hate those whose views on political matters differ from yours .

Hard to have nice thoughts about the people who set out to throw your decent hard working relatives out of work, destroy our communities and our way of life and replace it with nothing and leave desolation while all the while helping their chums in the south get richer. Will that do for you?

I have nothing against people who vote Conservative. I consider them fools but it is their choice and they should be free to express that choice, just as they should be allowed to criticise me.

I'm genuinely not sure if you meant anything by the first point.

As for the term social justice warrior, it's not the property of the alt-right snowflakes. Just because I use it doesn't mean I'm part of them. Secondly, I'm not spouting about any left-wing conspiracy theories, I'm pointing out the fact that there is an overwhelming amount of left-wing teachers in schools and colleges. You've had different experiences, and that's fair enough, I'm not going to accuse you of spouting any conspiracy theories just because it doesn't match up with my findings. I'm not so, dare I say it... intolerant.

Just meant you have a big family! Lots of you = your family!

That's good of you. I am not the one using alt right terminology and expressing thoughts common in the Daily Mail and within their on line comments community. I am not the one suggesting that schools and colleges are polluting innocent children minds with evil leftism. I maintain that views are more often formed in the home under the influence of family than in school.

It does tend to be those of a left wing persuasion who complain about "evil" right wing views.

There has been significant recent history of "no platforming" at many UK universities, and even perfectly moderate speakers such as Germaine Greer have been denied an audience. This appears to be creating an environment where any views other than the acceptable left of centre/feminist "norm" are shouted down.

This is a worrying development as, particularly in a university setting, the response to a bad argument should always be a better argument. The left would often prefer the lazy approach of shutting down the debate before it begins.

I agree with you entirely. Views should be expressed and challenged. I disagree with many people on here but believe they should be allowed to express their views and have them challenged.

supposing I walk into a KCL common room and loudly proclaim “it is my religious belief that homosexuals should be thrown from buildings”.*

you would be in trouble for suggesting that violence should be inflicted on another, not for expressing your religious views .

That depends. If you're Christian you will be immediately thrown off campus and denounced a bigoted homophobe with backwards 7th century views. If you're Muslim then you will immediately be regarded as an example of cultural enrichment from a beautiful peaceful religion unfairly blamed for terrorist attacks that it inspires.

PS. I think the Abrahamic religions are somewhat cancerous and not compatible with today's western values, but I respect your right to disagree and believe whatever you want. Your rights only end where other's rights begin.

That isnt true. I certainly denounce all religious types as brain washed simpletons but support their rights to both express their views and practice their worship.

I agree with every syllable, of every word, of the above posting! That’s a rare thing on these forums!

Bravo.

but it isnt true.

Thanks for the words of support. I thought it might be interesting to note that I once thought as they did. I was once a college student with left-wing views and a love for Jeremy Corbyn and everything about him. That's how I know how they think. It's not a bad asset for political debates, though it is an unfortunate part of my history

WOW it is a good job you grew up in time! Odd that with all of that intelligence and skills you haven't been able to enter into a debate

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

WOW it is a good job you grew up in time! Odd that with all of that intelligence and skills you haven't been able to enter into a debate

Should I expect a facetious nature with all of your replies from now on?

 

[DarloRich]

Should I expect a facetious nature with all of your replies from now on?

still no debate?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

still no debate?

I'm not sure you're aware, but I've been debating with you the past hour. Regardless I asked a genuine question if you don't mind. I'm not ultimately bothered if I should expect a facetious nature, I just would like to know what I'm in for.

 

[Bromley boy]

Hard to have nice thoughts about the people who set out to throw your decent hard working relatives out of work, destroy our communities and our way of life and replace it with nothing and leave desolation while all the while helping their chums in the south get richer. Will that do for you?

I have nothing against people who vote Conservative. I consider them fools but it is their choice and they should be free to express that choice, just as they should be allowed to criticise me.

That’s a very emotive choice of words. That smacks more of tribalism than rationality, to me.

I know a few Labour voters. As they are people I like and respect, I wouldn’t dismiss them as fools.

I wouldn’t hold myself out as a Tory either, they’ve done and said a lot I fundamentally disagree with. I’m probably somewhere in the middle these days.


Just meant you have a big family! Lots of you = your family!

Really?

That's good of you. I am not the one using alt right terminology and expressing thoughts common in the Daily Mail and within their on line comments community. I am not the one suggesting that schools and colleges are polluting innocent children minds with evil leftism. I maintain that views are more often formed in the home under the influence of family than in school.

[/QUOTE]

But have you read the postings above about no platforming in universities? That is the source of these criticisms.

I agree with you entirely. Views should be expressed and challenged. I disagree with many people on here but believe they should be allowed to express their views and have them challenged.

Good.

you would be in trouble for suggesting that violence should be inflicted on another, not for expressing your religious views .

But can you see the inherent conflict here. What if my religious views prescribe violence to homosexuals, or non believers?

At what point does my right to hold religious views trump (or get trumped) by another person’s right to be gay (and note, unlike religion, sexual orientation is a biological reality rather than a choice. I would argue religion shouldn’t be made immune from criticism or afforded the “untouchable” status it seems to be today. Although the left are only interested in criticising Christianity, Islam gets off Scott free!)

That isnt true. I certainly denounce all religious types as brain washed simpletons but support their rights to both express their views and practice their worship.

With all due respect, there are a great many highly educated, highly intelligent “religious types”. You seem to love putting people into boxes.


But it isn’t true

That’s a statement, not an argument. You need to advance a cogent argument as to why you believe that to be the case.




WOW it is a good job you grew up in time! Odd that with all of that intelligence and skills you haven't been able to enter into a debate [/QUOTE]

But it was you that you ignored his previous request to elaborate on your simplistic comment that his well reasoned post was “utter rubbish”.

So who is really unwilling (or perhaps unable) to enter into a debate?

 

[KN1]

I'm all in favour of 16 year olds being allowed the vote - if you can be asked to die for your country then you have the right to vote for its leaders. Giving people responsibilities tends to lead them to be more responsible.

You're not asked to die for your country at 16 though are you, as everybody knows that cannot happen until 18 at least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with you entirely. Views should be expressed and challenged. I disagree with many people on here but believe they should be allowed to express their views and have them challenged.

Yes, this. Hiding views is dangerous. They should be public, and if they are seen as bad be challenged equally publically. But then I'm a US-style free speech purist. IOW, say what you like, but if you say something nasty like racist etc I'm going to call you an idiot, and so hopefully is every other right-thinking person.

You (generic you) have the right to express any view you like. I have the right to call you (not you personally!) an idiot just as publically.