VTWC at Euston

[Polarbear]

I'm asking this on behalf of a work colleague.

My colleague was travelling yesterday (15 August) from Seven Kings to Stockport, using an AP ticket from Euston that was valid on the 15:00 departure from Euston. National Rail suggests the last train that will connect with this service is the 13:56 from Seven Kings.

My colleague just missed the 13:56 departure from Seven Kings, and subsequent departures from there to Liverpool Street were delayed, I understand due to a broken down train. They arrived at Euston just after 15:00 and asked to be put onto a later train, but were refused onward travel with their AP ticket. They were required to pay £85 for an "Anytime" single to Stockport, which included a railcard discount & took account of what they had already paid (apparently). The impression I was given is that the Virgin staff were somewhat abrupt & my colleague was given the impression that as it wasn't Virgin at fault, then it wasn't their problem.

I've also been told that whilst the 14:06 departure from Seven Kings did appear, it stood at the platform for several minutes & the doors weren't opened. The train departed without anyone from Seven Kings being able to board that service.

On the face of things, Virgin staff may have been correct, as my colleague did miss the 13:56 departure through no fault of the railway. However, had the 14:06 departure left on time (and opened it's doors if what I've been told is accurate), then I think that my colleague would have had a reasonable shot at making the 15:00, albeit a bit tight.

I appreciate this is a third party account, but if anyone's able to provide some insight, it would be appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think VT are right if they missed the 1356 and a later one isn't shown as connecting, I'm afraid.

It does look like they have actually shown a bit of leniency and excessed the Advance to a walk-up, even though it had no value once the train was missed. That's the only way that price adds up.

 

[AlterEgo]

If they missed the 1356 and the next one isn't a valid connecting service then Virgin are entitled to refuse travel and ask for a new ticket to be purchased.

Sounds like they met halfway and excessed the ticket, which they don't have to do.

 

[yorkie]

If they were on the platform in time for the booked departure of the 1356 they would have been entitled to board the next train at no extra cost and obtain Delay Repay.

Unfortunately as they missed the connecting train, they are entitled to nothing.

 

[Polarbear]

Thanks for the replies. As I mentioned, I've only heard this on a third party basis & can't be sure it's a full account of what actually happened.

Cheers.

 

[gray1404]

How late did the 14:06 get to Liverpool Street?

 

[Haywain]

How late did the 14:06 get to Liverpool Street?

What as that got to do with it?

 

[Polarbear]

How late did the 14:06 get to Liverpool Street?

RTT shows it arrived at Liverpool St 11 late, but as Haywain suggests, its not a factor given my colleague missed the advertised connection through no fault of the railway.

Actually, thinking about that, something doesn't quite add up with what I've been told, as the group concerned got to Euston at 15:02. Some of the group were on the 15:07 Liverpool which they managed to catch. Getting from a platform at Liverpool Street at 14:38 to the concourse at Euston for 15:02 is good going!

 

[bb21]

Getting from a platform at Liverpool Street at 14:38 to the concourse at Euston for 15:02 is good going!

 

[Mag_seven]

National Rail suggests the last train that will connect with this service is the 13:56 from Seven Kings

That train is scheduled to arrive at Liverpool St at 14.17. Whats happend to the long established 60 min connectional allowance between London terminals then?

 

[marcouk2]

That train is scheduled to arrive at Liverpool St at 14.17. Whats happend to the long established 60 min connectional allowance between London terminals then?

Depends on the specific connection, BRTimes says 15 minutes connection time for Liverpool Street then 13 minutes Tube transfer time and 15 minutes connection time for Euston so 43 minutes total making the 1500 a valid connection (just!).

 

[yorkie]

That train is scheduled to arrive at Liverpool St at 14.17. Whats happend to the long established 60 min connectional allowance between London terminals then?

I'm not aware of a blanket 60 minute connectional allowance having previously applied. When was that? If there as one, it must have been a very long time ago.

 

[yorkie]

...as the group concerned got to Euston at 15:02. Some of the group were on the 15:07 Liverpool which they managed to catch. Getting from a platform at Liverpool Street at 14:38 to the concourse at Euston for 15:02 is good going! ��

24 minutes is not bad at all, but can be beaten.

If you alight from the front of the train at Liverpool Street you could be on a sub-surface train within around 2-3 minutes (if one turns up that quick) or a tube train within approximately 3-4 minutes.

TfL journey planner says 16 minutes journey time (LU platform to LU platform), including generous interchange time, changing at Oxford Circus or King's Cross. If you are quick with the interchange you can take a minute or two off that. If you alight at the right doors at Euston and walk up the escalator you can be at the platform in maybe 2-3 minutes. Another alternative is to go direct to Euston Square; you could run or jog the last part which would be quicker than changing anywhere, if you're fit and determined.

So I think they could have made it - just - but only if they used the nearest exits (there are maps which help with this) and were very mobile and knew where they were going.

Of course, the recommended interchange times are much more generous and assume people don't really know where they are going and walk slowly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not aware of a blanket 60 minute connectional allowance having previously applied. When was that? If there as one, it must have been a very long time ago.

It might not be the minimum in ticketing terms, but it definitely was the recommended time for crossing London, certainly in the late 90s/early 2000s before there was a journey planner.

 

[yorkie]

It might not be the minimum in ticketing terms, but it definitely was the recommended time for crossing London, certainly in the late 90s/early 2000s before there was a journey planner.

Do you have a source for that? There may have been an informal message saying to allow at least an hour, but I am sure specific times were published for each interchange, taking relevant factors into account.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you have a source for that? There may have been an informal message saying to allow at least an hour, but I am sure specific times were published for each interchange, taking relevant factors into account.

I don't I'm afraid. Pretty sure though that it used to be on printed timetables as a recommendation.

 

[Mag_seven]

Do you have a source for that? There may have been an informal message saying to allow at least an hour, but I am sure specific times were published for each interchange, taking relevant factors into account.

It used to be quoted in the GBTT as per Neil's comment above.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

BRTimes says 15 minutes connection time for Liverpool Street then 13 minutes Tube transfer time and 15 minutes connection time for Euston so 43 minutes total (just!).

If you walk quickly and know the routes through the stations, the 15 minutes connection times can easily be beaten. I would suspect there's margin in the 13 minutes as well for gaps in the service.

If you are travelling on an Advance from and back to a London terminal, as part of a longer journey, you need to follow the published times on the way to the London Terminal even at the cost of being half an hour early in practice. destination. On the way back you would probably beat the advertised time if the non-Advance section of the journey is frequent enough.

 

[bb21]

WTT have KXStP to Liverpool Street as 10-11 minutes, so 12-13 minutes from Euston Square is about right.

 

[Polarbear]

I should add that the route the party took across London was Met/Circle from Liverpool St to Moorgate, then Northern line to Euston.

I've done my fair share of mad cross London leaps in my time, but given none of my colleagues would know their way around the area, I thought they did rather well in the cross London transfer stakes!

 

[yorkie]

Agreed, not bad for people who didn't take the recommended route and didn't know how to optimise it.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I should add that the route the party took across London was Met/Circle from Liverpool St to Moorgate, then Northern line to Euston.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It used to be quoted in the GBTT as per Neil's comment above.

The last table from the GBTT is in the "Integrated Fares" section of the forum's Fares & Ticketing Guide and gives 43 minutes for Liverpool Street - Euston.

The latest editions if the eNRT have dropped the table and basically say "frequent London Underground services are available".

 

[Polarbear]

Can you potentially save time on that one by walking to Moorgate? Isn't Crossrail going to include a Northern Line Moorgate interchange as part of Liverpool Street?

I dare say walking from Liverpool St main line to Moorgate would be as quick, if not quicker than faffing around with the circle line.

Can't say whether there will be a link to the Crossrail station im afraid.

 

[tsr]

I dare say walking from Liverpool St main line to Moorgate would be as quick, if not quicker than faffing around with the circle line.

Can't say whether there will be a link to the Crossrail station im afraid.

There will be a Crossrail (well, Elizabeth Line) connection to Moorgate. I seem to remember some of these "two stations for the price of one" options will involve a fair walk in passageways, maybe just as far as if you'd gone down the road on the surface, but perhaps not as far as some other interchanges around London - for example, some of the signposted routes at Kings Cross St Pancras Tube station, which are tortuous.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I can't imagine it'll be quicker than going between the two on the surface - same distance (at worst) but wider walkways and no people stopped in your way to read a map