Was this sort of practice commonplace pre-deregulation with jointly operated routes?

[quarella]

There was the X52 service from Aberystwyth to Swansea that was operated by Crosville and SWT in the mid 1980s.

The drivers swapped vehicles en route so the vehicles did the full service but the drivers didn’t. It was known for the SWT vehicle to be used in Aber on local services on occasion

When I caught the 701 Traws Cambria Cardiff - Holyhead service in the mid nineties the route was operated by National Welsh and Crosville Cymru. While the timetable showed a through journey we had to change vehicles between operators at Aberystwyth. We also had an unscheduled change of vehicle at Bangor due to a damaged mirror after getting it caught up in a hedge.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My late father was a driver and did a bit of additional National Express work from
the North East to London (pre Rapide) using of his depots DP Duple Leopards.

It failed on the M1 so he came back with a Trent Alexander bodied Leopard. Very exotic!!

 

[Driver362]

The 39, which became the X39, may well have been Bannockburn as the GRT spec Mercs ran on it quite often.

It was have experience of both routes during this time

 

[GusB]

None of the Western routes into Carlisle were joint operations, but they did use the Ribble (subsequently Cumberland) garage in Carlisle. Most of what survives is operated by Stagecoach North West rather than Stagecoach West Scotland, including the 79/179 from Carlisle to Dumfries.

Thanks for clarifying. I think it was perhaps knowing that they used a local garage over the border that led to my incorrect assumption that it was a joint service.

 

[Busaholic]

London Country had no record of joint operations until NBC companies were instructed to engage in Market Analysis Projects (MAPs) and LC joined forces with Alder Valley for surveys in certain areas. Notably, in the High Wycombe area, a new network was planned with LC going into places like Marlow that were traditionally outside its area, and I think there were some 'joint' routes like the 326 to Booker, though I've no personal experience to draw on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

London Country had no record of joint operations until NBC companies were instructed to engage in Market Analysis Projects (MAPs) and LC joined forces with Alder Valley for surveys in certain areas. Notably, in the High Wycombe area, a new network was planned with LC going into places like Marlow that were traditionally outside its area, and I think there were some 'joint' routes like the 326 to Booker, though I've no personal experience to draw on.

Didn’t the Weyfarer MAP and identity cover Alder Valley (Woking) and LC, as did the Chilternline MAP you mentioned?

 

[jp4712]

The NBC poppy red/leaf green livery specified grey wheels for all fleets. This was so that if a bus failed in another NBC company's area with a flat tyre, a replacement could be provided by the host company that didn't look odd.

Away from NBC, Manchester and Ashton Corporations had several joint trolleybus services: and unusually, if a trolleybus failed in the other's area. the operator whose area it was would provide a spare to be loaned - so an Ashton driver and conductor might end up crewing a Manchester trolleybus that had been provided as a changeover.

The X97 'Tyne-Tees-Mersey' express routes were operated by a large pool of operators including BET, Tilling and even independent (Lancashire United) companies. The coaches (and their passengers) would travel the length of the route but the drivers didn't, they would swap over - commonly at Leeds. So a North Western driver might take a North Western Leyland Leopard from Manchester to Leeds; be given a West Yorkshire Bristol MW to Liverpool; and return to Manchester with a Lancashire United Guy Arab LUF. They'd drive anything! This is explored in detail in a book by Peter Caunt titled something like 'North Western - a driver's reminiscences'.

 

[Busaholic]

Didn’t the Weyfarer MAP and identity cover Alder Valley (Woking) and LC, as did the Chilternline MAP you mentioned?

Yes, but I'm unclear as to which, if any, routes were jointly operated in practice, even though they were all introduced under the one scheme with a completely new set of route numbers. Incidentally, in LT days the Country Bus side had one very long-running joint operation with a small firm called Rover Bus, who I think were based in Chesham. I'm going from memory here of reading about it, I never knew the area. Someone may recollect what the route was: I've a feeling it was a very rural, minor one.

 

[A0wen]

Yes, but I'm unclear as to which, if any, routes were jointly operated in practice, even though they were all introduced under the one scheme with a completely new set of route numbers. Incidentally, in LT days the Country Bus side had one very long-running joint operation with a small firm called Rover Bus, who I think were based in Chesham. I'm going from memory here of reading about it, I never knew the area. Someone may recollect what the route was: I've a feeling it was a very rural, minor one.

Details here http://www.amersham.org.uk/londoncountry/

 

[SCH117X]

Slightly off topic as its post deregulation and not a joint service but I once saw, back in pre Transdev & First days, a Blazefield Harrogate & District vehicle working a 653 service, albeit apparently only as far as Otley rather than all the way to Bradford judging by the destination blind; presumably the inbound Yorkshire Rider vehicle had broken down and an old WYRCC agreement was still in place that the Harrogate depot would fill in such circumstances

 

[Busaholic]

Details here http://www.amersham.org.uk/londoncountry/

Thank you - I'd never have found that website. Glad to know my memory wasn't entirely faulty!

 

[Darklord8899]

I mentioned this in an earlier post.

Aye you did, not sure how I missed your posts

 

[Ken H]

The Leeds - Bradford 72 was a joint Leeds and Bradford city transport operation. You saw blue Bradford buses in leeds and green Leeds ones in Bradford. Seems to be a 100% First Bradford operation now. Think it used to be a tram route where they had to change gauges in Stanningley.

The Yorkshire Coastliner operation used to be joint West Yorkshire/East Yorkshire/United operation.

I think joint services fell foul of monopolies rules.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Yorkshire Coastliner operation used to be joint West Yorkshire/East Yorkshire/United operation.

I think joint services fell foul of monopolies rules.

Not quite. 43 Leeds - York - Scarborough was WYRCC but after they closed their separate Scarborough depot, they shared the United depot. Only the route from Malton to Whitby was WYRCC/United 92 (mainly UAS). EYMS shared the 44/46 Leeds to York to Brid/Hull.

For a brief period, part of the 92 was operated by EY’s Scarborough & District arm at Pickering in 1986/7.

 

[Ken H]

Not quite. 43 Leeds - York - Scarborough was WYRCC but after they closed their separate Scarborough depot, they shared the United depot. Only the route from Malton to Whitby was WYRCC/United 92 (mainly UAS). EYMS shared the 44/46 Leeds to York to Brid/Hull.

For a brief period, part of the 92 was operated by EY’s Scarborough & District arm at Pickering in 1986/7.

sorry about that
I just remembered in the WYRCC timetable it said 'West Yorkshire/Easy Yorkshire/United joint service'. The Whitby, Scarborough and brid services were in timetable in the book. I also remember buses from all 3 companies in Vicar Lane Bus Station.
Thanks for the route numbers. Long forgotten.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

sorry about that
I just remembered in the WYRCC timetable it said 'West Yorkshire/Easy Yorkshire/United joint service'. The Whitby, Scarborough and brid services were in timetable in the book. I also remember buses from all 3 companies in Vicar Lane Bus Station.
Thanks for the route numbers. Long forgotten.

No worries, and it does raise vehicles being outbased in another’s depot. Believe that also occurred in Hereford.

 

[RT4038]

London Country had no record of joint operations until NBC companies were instructed to engage in Market Analysis Projects (MAPs) and LC joined forces with Alder Valley for surveys in certain areas. Notably, in the High Wycombe area, a new network was planned with LC going into places like Marlow that were traditionally outside its area, and I think there were some 'joint' routes like the 326 to Booker, though I've no personal experience to draw on.

London Country also had a joint route (No. 44) Luton-Stevenage with United Counties, introduced about 1978. Nothing to do with MAP.

 

[randyrippley]

Southern and Western National had two joint workings between Yeovil and Taunton which were replacements for closed railway services. The 200 (via Stoke-sub-Hamdon, Martock, Langport) died after a few years, but the 264 (via Ilchester, Somerton, Langport) survived. Buses were interchangeable. By the 1970s the two companies had amalgamated, but occasionally Devon General Bristol REs turned up at Yeovil on the 264, presumably spare at Taunton having worked through from Exeter?
Bristol - branded REs also turned up at Yeovil sometimes in the 1970s on what by then were Western National services from Shepton Mallet. These were usually former coaches which had been repurposed as dual-purpose. Presumably if a vehicle broke down at Shepton Mallet there was a closer Bristol depot than Western National at Yeovil

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Southern and Western National had two joint workings between Yeovil and Taunton which were replacements for closed railway services. The 200 (via Stoke-sub-Hamdon, Martock, Langport) died after a few years, but the 264 (via Ilchester, Somerton, Langport) survived. Buses were interchangeable. By the 1970s the two companies had amalgamated, but occasionally Devon General Bristol REs turned up at Yeovil on the 264, presumably spare at Taunton having worked through from Exeter?
Bristol - branded REs also turned up at Yeovil sometimes in the 1970s on what by then were Western National services from Shepton Mallet. These were usually former coaches which had been repurposed as dual-purpose. Presumably if a vehicle broke down at Shepton Mallet there was a closer Bristol depot than Western National at Yeovil

Would imagine it was Wells depot?

 

[randyrippley]

Would imagine it was Wells depot?

that would seem logical

 

[RT4038]

Southern and Western National had two joint workings between Yeovil and Taunton which were replacements for closed railway services. The 200 (via Stoke-sub-Hamdon, Martock, Langport) died after a few years, but the 264 (via Ilchester, Somerton, Langport) survived. Buses were interchangeable. By the 1970s the two companies had amalgamated, but occasionally Devon General Bristol REs turned up at Yeovil on the 264, presumably spare at Taunton having worked through from Exeter?
Bristol - branded REs also turned up at Yeovil sometimes in the 1970s on what by then were Western National services from Shepton Mallet. These were usually former coaches which had been repurposed as dual-purpose. Presumably if a vehicle broke down at Shepton Mallet there was a closer Bristol depot than Western National at Yeovil

Western/Southern National also had jointly worked with Wilts & Dorset (434/5 Weymouth-Salisbury) [and further back 241 Trowbridge-Salisbury] and with Hants & Dorset (411 Weymouth-Bournemouth). They had various joint routes with Devon General too.

 

[randyrippley]

Western/Southern National also had jointly worked with Wilts & Dorset (434/5 Weymouth-Salisbury) [and further back 241 Trowbridge-Salisbury] and with Hants & Dorset (411 Weymouth-Bournemouth). They had various joint routes with Devon General too.

Weymouth was always interesting. As you walked off the train there was usually quite a range of buses and coaches visible at the depot across the road: Southern National, Western National, Hants & Dorset, Wilts & Dorset, Royal Blue, Black & White, Red & White, Greenslades, Bristol Greyhound, Shamrock & Rambler are the ones I remember, there must have been others as well

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Western/Southern National also had jointly worked with Wilts & Dorset (434/5 Weymouth-Salisbury) [and further back 241 Trowbridge-Salisbury] and with Hants & Dorset (411 Weymouth-Bournemouth). They had various joint routes with Devon General too.

The various iterations and joint operation of the 241 into the X41 then X4 lasted until c.2008

 

[Busaholic]

Southern and Western National had two joint workings between Yeovil and Taunton which were replacements for closed railway services. The 200 (via Stoke-sub-Hamdon, Martock, Langport) died after a few years, but the 264 (via Ilchester, Somerton, Langport) survived. Buses were interchangeable. By the 1970s the two companies had amalgamated, but occasionally Devon General Bristol REs turned up at Yeovil on the 264, presumably spare at Taunton having worked through from Exeter?
Bristol - branded REs also turned up at Yeovil sometimes in the 1970s on what by then were Western National services from Shepton Mallet. These were usually former coaches which had been repurposed as dual-purpose. Presumably if a vehicle broke down at Shepton Mallet there was a closer Bristol depot than Western National at Yeovil

So long ago, and I was much more concerned with the sort of things teenagers have always found more pressing, but in my two summer seasons working in Minehead in 1966/7 I remember seeing some Royal Blue workings on Saturdays only on the route to Tiverton: I believe during the week WN buses connected at Tiverton with buses to Exeter, but worked through on Sats jointly with Royal Blue. Is this feasible? I can almost remember the route no. but it won't quite come to me. I'm fairly sure that the Royal Blues weren't on a coach service.

 

[randyrippley]

I never saw blue-painted Royal Blues on normal bus services, but some were painted cream/green (basically reversed Western National colours) and used both for bus and coach services. Southern National also had some with a different shade of cream. These ran with National fleet names, but "Royal Blue" on the headboards when coaching. Tended to be coaches which had been put onto a kind of reserve fleet. However the Royal Blues did themselves run as express stage servcies - for instance in the 1960s there was an express Taunton-Yeovil RB limited stop for which you could get walkon fares, though they wouldn't accept return National tickets despite being the same company. That disappeared when the National Express coaching operation was harmonised in the 1970s and became long distance only. The RBs on that service were fitted with ticket machines, so its quite possible they worked normal bus routes at other times

 

[Busaholic]

I never saw blue-painted Royal Blues on normal bus services, but some were painted cream/green (basically reversed Western National colours) and used both for bus and coach services. Southern National also had some with a different shade of cream. These ran with National fleet names, but "Royal Blue" on the headboards when coaching. Tended to be coaches which had been put onto a kind of reserve fleet. However the Royal Blues did themselves run as express stage servcies - for instance in the 1960s there was an express Taunton-Yeovil RB limited stop for which you could get walkon fares, though they wouldn't accept return National tickets despite being the same company. That disappeared when the National Express coaching operation was harmonised in the 1970s and became long distance only. The RBs on that service were fitted with ticket machines, so its quite possible they worked normal bus routes at other times

My recollection is that it was exactly the same vehicle every Saturday, so maybe it had been 'stood down' from coach service. I'm not over familiar with the Bristol product, but I don't think it was an MW - could have been an LS? It wasn't in the first flush of youth.

 

[randyrippley]

My recollection is that it was exactly the same vehicle every Saturday, so maybe it had been 'stood down' from coach service. I'm not over familiar with the Bristol product, but I don't think it was an MW - could have been an LS? It wasn't in the first flush of youth.

some of the Western National LS fleet had coach bodies and Royal Blue livery
video of a ride on one a

photo of another on http://www.bristolsu.co.uk/ls/

 

[RT4038]

The various iterations and joint operation of the 241 into the X41 then X4 lasted until c.2008

By which time it was Bristol Omnibus with Hants & Dorset, and successors.

 

[A0wen]

London Country also had a joint route (No. 44) Luton-Stevenage with United Counties, introduced about 1978. Nothing to do with MAP.

London Country didn't have a history of operating joint services because of their LT parentage - and LT only did it in exceptional circumstances and usually only with independents, not usually with Tilling / BET / NBC.

The 44 was, I believe, a replacement for a service that had previously been operated by an independent and United Counties in particular picked up several such services over the years, though usually on their own.

 

[RT4038]

London Country didn't have a history of operating joint services because of their LT parentage - and LT only did it in exceptional circumstances and usually only with independents, not usually with Tilling / BET / NBC.

The 44 was, I believe, a replacement for a service that had previously been operated by an independent and United Counties in particular picked up several such services over the years, though usually on their own.

LT ran the 359 (Aylesbury-Amersham) jointly with United Counties [formerly Eastern National] until '64, and later a service in Slough (407? Cippenham-Langley Vill) jointly with Thames Valley. But yes, compared to other operators these were quite unusual.

The 44 was a part replacement for a service run by Jey-son Coaches, itself a replacement for an ex-Birch route, but the Stevenage section was brand new. Stevenage had never been directly connected to Luton previously.