Wasn't allowed on Gatwick Express with "Southern Only" ticket

[londonboi]

Just a question

Regarding your original ticket the one you collected from EDB and firstly tried to use to open the barrier at victoria. At the bottom beneath the word "route" does it state "any permitted" or "southern only"

The latter possibly been the reason the staff member stated to you it was not valid on that specific train

 

[island]

Just a question

Regarding your original ticket the one you collected from EDI and firstly tried to use to open the barrier at victoria. At the bottom beneath the word "route" does it state "any permitted" or "southern only"

The latter possibly been the reason the staff member stated to you it was not valid on that specific train

We are clear it was Southern Only, and should be valid on services operated by Southern, including non-stop ones in trains with Express on them.

 

[Harlesden]

If you check this page on the Southern Railways website
http://www.southernrailway.com/destinations/gatwick-airport/
you will see that the Southern Railways website does not offer Gatwick Express tickets. You are instead redirected - via a link on the Southern Railways webpage - to a dedicated Gatwick Express booking facility.
This to me clearly implies that an "ordinary" Southern London-Gatwick ticket would not be valid on Gatwick Express.
Why have two websites if the "ordinary" Southern tickets are fully valid on Gatwick Express?

 

[sarahj]

I've discussed this thread and others with front line staff at Gatwick etc. But I'm still loath to advice people with Southern only tickets to use the express service between Gatwick and Victoria due to problems they might encounter at the barrier at victoria. I think this issue will only sort itself out when we become one with what is now FCC , become one big happy family :roll: and tickets get marked 'Any permited' and 'not gatwick express', and the 'FCC only' and 'Southern only' tickets go away.

TBH, normal southern services are mainly just a few mins slower, you can get seats 95% of the time if you dont board right at the bottom of the escaltors at Gatwick, or walk along the platform at Victoria and not board in coach 12/8. and you save over £4. Plus a min of 4/5 trains an hour.*

*
2 x Littlehampton/Eastbourne(Ore)
2 x Bognor/Portsmouth-Southampton
1 x Brighton


Anyway, think of the poor sod that buys a ticket to london bridge. One of the first ones that comes up on the TVMs at Gatwick is Southern only. Thats one train an hour and takes forever. (50 mins) (Horsham stoppers). Use that on a FCC and they will do you. As I said once to a punter on one with an FCC only ticket. Normaly you should have to buy a new ticket, but instead we will punish you in a different way, 50 mins, rather than 25 on a fast FCC.

 

[radamfi]

I'm on the Gatwick Express now (one of the ones from Brighton) and someone is getting a Penalty Fare now (double the single) because he had a FCC only ticket. Is that correct or should he have been allowed to buy a new Anytime single?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Penalty fare I believe.

 

[radamfi]

Penalty Fare rules say:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a
person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published
restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail
Conditions of Carriage.

Is "FCC Only" a "published restriction"?

 

[maniacmartin]

The rules specifically refer to restrictions in Condition 12, which details the time you can travel. Other restrictions are in other conditions

 

[Tetchytyke]

Penalty Fare.

A TOC-specific ticket cannot be excessed and should be treated as though no ticket were held.

Travelling outside the time restriction for your ticket can be excessed and a penalty fare should not be charged.

 

[Haywain]

Penalty Fare rules say:

Is "FCC Only" a "published restriction"?

No, it's the routeing of the ticket. As others have said the restriction is about when you can use the ticket.

 

[island]

Penalty Fare.

A TOC-specific ticket cannot be excessed and should be treated as though no ticket were held.

Travelling outside the time restriction for your ticket can be excessed and a penalty fare should not be charged.

See also NRCoC 10.

 

[sarahj]

Yesterday evening on my Btn - victoria express, I did four tickets where they were on the wrong train with an advance, one who had a reservation on a train from lewes and a group of three who had no reservation coupon. I did the cheapest ticket, and a discount , either a YP or a group 3. Then there was the person who had a FCC only ticket, and I had made 2 announcements before departure, informing that FCC only tickets were not valid. The FCC train was on the platform next to us, and would leave just 14 mins later, and if you had an FCc only ticket, you would need to buy a new one, I charged them the cheapest ticket to east croydon, a super off peak single. She had no railcard. £16.80. She still went, how much, moan moan. But paid up. Of course claimed, never heard the announcement.

As an aside, also had someone with a Brighton-littlehaven weekly, who took the view that any permited on it meant he could go to east croydon. Discussed routings with them :roll: before charging them the excess.

Oh and had two with tickets to Rugely(?). Asked them if they knew RJ

Thats the problem with the expresses, you have time to go through them, but the tickets you sell are excess's etc. As a guard, we only work the ones that are 12 car. The rest get revenue on them.

 

[rmt4ever]

I really don't get this. You have a ticket marked southern only, so just use the southern service. It hardly takes much longer anyway. If someone wants to travel on a more premium service, then pay for it ! Why make things unnecessarily difficult for yourself by creating silly arguments like this, life is too short ! Have better things told personally with my time.

 

[island]

I really don't get this. You have a ticket marked southern only, so just use the southern service. It hardly takes much longer anyway. If someone wants to travel on a more premium service, then pay for it ! Why make things unnecessarily difficult for yourself by creating silly arguments like this, life is too short ! Have better things told personally with my time.

Please tell me which company operates the Gatwick Express if it is not Southern?

 

[anme]

Please tell me which company operates the Gatwick Express if it is not Southern?

I wish all this energy was devoted to a more worthwhile cause.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Please tell me which company operates the Gatwick Express if it is not Southern?

Go-ahead Group, through Southern Railway Limited, trading as Gatwick Express.

 

[island]

So that'll be Southern Railway Limited, which of course doesn't fit on a ticket so is abbreviated to SOUTHERN ONLY on a ticket. I rest my case.

 

[redbutton]

Oh and had two with tickets to Rugely(?). Asked them if they knew RJ

Brighton to Rugely via London Victoria is about two miles longer than shortest route, so it's permitted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So that'll be Southern Railway Limited, which of course doesn't fit on a ticket so is abbreviated to SOUTHERN ONLY on a ticket. I rest my case.

Then your case is as watertight as a sieve.

I can't say I have ever seen West Coast Trains Limited, London & Birmingham Railway Limited or First/Keolis Transpennine Limited being abbreviated on tickets. Infact I think the only company that uses a trading name which (for certain) has it's company name abbreviated is XC Trains Limited (trading as CrossCountry), and that is probably more because of 'VXC' (Cross Country Trains Limited) before it than anything else.

 

[bb21]

I am not going to wade into this argument, but only to point out that this subject is getting boring and tedious. We have been through it all before.

 

[soil]

As an aside, also had someone with a Brighton-littlehaven weekly, who took the view that any permited on it meant he could go to east croydon. Discussed routings with them :roll: before charging them the excess.

Oh and had two with tickets to Rugely(?). Asked them if they knew RJ

Thats the problem with the expresses, you have time to go through them, but the tickets you sell are excess's etc. As a guard, we only work the ones that are 12 car. The rest get revenue on them.

Shouldn't be an excess if he has a weekly season. Just a Three Bridges - Croydon single/return

 

[Deerfold]

Then your case is as watertight as a sieve.

I can't say I have ever seen West Coast Trains Limited, London & Birmingham Railway Limited or First/Keolis Transpennine Limited being abbreviated on tickets. Infact I think the only company that uses a trading name which (for certain) has it's company name abbreviated is XC Trains Limited (trading as CrossCountry), and that is probably more because of 'VXC' (Cross Country Trains Limited) before it than anything else.

This page (http://www.gatwickexpress.com/) says

Gatwick Express is operated by Southern
Southern Railway Ltd is registered in England No. 06574965

This page (http://www.southernrailway.com/) says

Southern Railway Ltd is registered in England No. 06574965

It doesn't say Gatwick Express is operated by Southern Railway Ltd trading as (whatever)...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The wording of the website doesn't mean that 'Southern Only' on a ticket is an abbreviation of Southern Railway Limited (which was the point being responded to). Perhaps you meant to quote an earlier post?

 

[Deerfold]

The wording of the website doesn't mean that 'Southern Only' on a ticket is an abbreviation of Southern Railway Limited (which was the point being responded to). Perhaps you meant to quote an earlier post?

I meant to quote the post I did - and then referred also at the end to your earlier post without directly quoting it.

What on earth is a passenger supposed to think "Southern Only" is supposed to refer to if not Southern Railway Limited which is listed by both websites (and the Gatwick Express one pointing out that they are *operated* by "Southern"?)

 

[talltim]

The wording of the website doesn't mean that 'Southern Only' on a ticket is an abbreviation of Southern Railway Limited (which was the point being responded to). Perhaps you meant to quote an earlier post?

It doesn't have to. The website says

Gatwick Express is operated by Southern

Which matches exactly what the ticket says

 

[Mr Spock]

Although Gatwick Express is operated by Southern it seems to be marketed as a "premium" product and as such is charged at a higher price.

Therefore a ticket marked as Southern could be deemed to not be valid on a Gatwick Express service but only those services marketed as Southern.

 

[Deerfold]

Although Gatwick Express is operated by Southern it seems to be marketed as a "premium" product and as such is charged at a higher price.

Therefore a ticket marked as Southern could be deemed to not be valid on a Gatwick Express service but only those services marketed as Southern.

And how is every page of the Gatwick Express site saying:

Gatwick Express is operated by Southern

not marketing it as Southern?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Gatwick Express, like Stansted Express, is a trading name of the relevant TOC, and listed separately in the list of TOCs in the NRCoC.

The key difference is that Stansted Express isn't treated as a premium product as it's been part of Network SouthEast (and its successors) since inception, whereas Gatwick Express fell under InterCity at sectorisation, and has attracted a premium ever since.

 

[Deerfold]

Gatwick Express, like Stansted Express, is a trading name of the relevant TOC, and listed separately in the list of TOCs in the NRCoC.

The key difference is that Stansted Express isn't treated as a premium product as it's been part of Network SouthEast (and its successors) since inception, whereas Gatwick Express fell under InterCity at sectorisation, and has attracted a premium ever since.

And I can understand that "Not Gatwick Express" (or the abbreviation) stops you catching it. I don't understand what stops it on a "Not Southern" ticket - and how a passenger is supposed to be able to tell.

Not quite sure why falling under Intercity means it attracts a premium - If I travel to Stevenage I pay the same with FCC and East Coast.

 

[Mr Spock]

Just because it says Gatwick Express is operated by Southern does not mean it can not be seen as a seperate product and therefore subject to different pricing.