Waterbeach to Stansted Airport with Network Railcard

[arb]

I intend to make the following journeys:

Sat 24th Dec: Waterbeach to Stansted Airport, arrive before 11:00
Thu 29th Dec: Stansted Airport to Cambridge, depart after 22:30

I plan on buying an off-peak return from Waterbeach to Stansted Airport, and breaking my journey at Cambridge on the return leg. I'll be using the remainder of the ticket to Waterbeach at a later date.

Putting this information into the National Rail journey planner gives me a range of sensible looking journeys for Waterbeach to Stansted. For the return leg, I'm offered a 22:27 departure that goes to Waterbeach with a change at Cambridge (ideal for where I want to break the journey), or a 23:00 departure which involves a change at Bishop's Stortford as well as Cambridge. The price, including Network Railcard discount, appears, at first glance to be £13.

However, on closer inspection, this price is not shown as valid on the 23:00 departure via Bishop's Stortford. After experimenting a bit more, I can only get the website to show me the £17 non-railcard discounted fare for that service.

I initially assumed that the railcard discounted fare wasn't valid via Bishop's Stortford for some reason, but entering a journey of Waterbeach to Stansted Airport via Bishop's Stortford shows that it actually appears to be a time-based restriction. I can get the discounted fare on the 22:00 departure via Bishop's Stortford, but not the 23:00.

I'm now really confused - I've never heard of a late-night restriction on railcards - is there one? Or is there some other reason why the railcard discount doesn't apply on this ticket? Comparing with a different journey, the railcard discount is offered on the (even later) 23:15 departure from Kings Cross to Waterbeach, which suggests that it's actually some combination of route and time that is preventing the railcard discounted fare from being available. Is this right, or have I just found a glitch in the booking system?

 

[A60K]

Is it the case that travelling via Stortford means that you board a train somewhere after midnight (so on Friday morning)? If so, perhaps that falls foul of the application of the morning peak restriction on railcards, even though it's still effectively Thursday's traffic day.

 

[island]

I'd go with the original question of the train going outside the Network area as a guess, but I'm not great on the geography so I can't be sure.

Edit: Listen to A60K, not me

 

[A60K]

I'd go with the original question of the train going outside the Network area as a guess, but I'm not great on the geography so I can't be sure.

Not the case for sure.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I don't think going via Bishops Stortford is allowed as you would be doubling back through Stansted Mountfitchet. Is the alternative fare it is showing you not the sum of three singles WBC-SSD, SSD-BIS and BIS-WBC? I can't quite reproduce what you're describing.

 

[cjohnson]

I don't think going via Bishops Stortford is allowed as you would be doubling back through Stansted Mountfitchet. Is the alternative fare it is showing you not the sum of three singles WBC-SSD, SSD-BIS and BIS-WBC? I can't quite reproduce what you're describing.

NRES allows the journey (Stansted-Waterbeach via BIS) with one ticket so presumably there must be an easement somewhere...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yup, easement 60:

Passengers travelling from Kings Lynn, Ely and stations in between to Stansted Airport may double back from Bishops Stortford. This applies in both directions.

 

[arb]

Is it the case that travelling via Stortford means that you board a train somewhere after midnight (so on Friday morning)? If so, perhaps that falls foul of the application of the morning peak restriction on railcards, even though it's still effectively Thursday's traffic day.

Is it really the case that the morning peak restriction starts at midnight? If so, then I've probably broken that rule a few times in the past!

The 23:00 departure is listed as:
Depart SSD 23:00, arrive BIS 23:09
Depart BIS 23:14, arrive CBG 23:51
Depart CBG 00:14, arrive WBC 00:20

In which case, since I want to break the journey at CBG, would it be OK to travel on the first two legs of this journey with the railcard discounted ticket, since they're all before midnight?

If so, then that leads to another question - if my flight was late, meaning I'd have to get the 23:59 departure to CBG (again via BIS) (this one doesn't have a connection to WBC), can I excess an already bought railcard discounted ticket (£13) to the full fare (£17) by paying the £4 difference? (Or is £2 because it's only one leg?)

Or would the original ticket be worthless to me and I'd have to buy a new one? (In which case I might be better off paying the undiscounted fare in the first place...)

Hang on a minute - in the WBC to KGX example I gave, the return journey departs KGX at 23:15 and arrives WBC at 00:20, which is after midnight. But it offers me the railcard discounted fare for that journey.

 

[John @ home]

Good. We now know that the Easement applies from Ely but not from Waterbeach.

So it might be worth paying the extra on 24th to get an Ely - Stansted Airport Off-Peak Return if you think there's a risk you'll need the 2300 on 29th. This can be used as a Waterbeach - Stansted Airport Off-Peak Return.

It costs £13.20 instead of £13.00.

 

[arb]

I don't think going via Bishops Stortford is allowed as you would be doubling back through Stansted Mountfitchet. Is the alternative fare it is showing you not the sum of three singles WBC-SSD, SSD-BIS and BIS-WBC? I can't quite reproduce what you're describing.

Enter a journey from WBC to SSD, arriving by 24th Dec 11:00, and departing 29th Dec 22:30. Don't select any railcards. There are two return journeys offered, both with the £17 (non-discounted) fare. The first is SSD to CBG to WBC; the second is SSD to BIS to CBG to WBC. Both say that the ticket can be used on the other journey.

But if you add the Network Railcard, then you get the £13 (discounted) fare for SSD to CBG to WBC, and no fare for the later SSD to BIS to CBG to WBC.

 

[John @ home]

Is it really the case that the morning peak restriction starts at midnight?

Only for the sale of tickets from machines. Not for the use of tickets already held, where the railway "day" starts at 0430.

 

[cjohnson]

Good. We now know that the Easement applies from Ely but not from Waterbeach.

Ah, actually easement 69 looks to be the right one in this situation:

The following groups of journeys to Stansted Airport via Cambridge may double back from Bishops Stortford: (1) journeys from stations north of Cambridge, (2) journeys via Cambridge from Knebworth, Watton at Stone, Stevenage or Hitchin, (3) journeys from stations between Hitchin and Cambridge, (4) journeys from stations north of Hitchin, (5) journeys from Cambridge. This easement applies in both directions.

 

[Paul Kelly]

OK yes I see it now, and the doubling back is allowed, so that was a red herring thrown into the mix by me. It looks then like this is a bug in the journey planner, as A60K indicates.

As John@Home says, railway "days" overlap by 4 1/2 hours - so the after-midnight leg of the journey from Cambridge to Waterbeach can be considered to take place on the previous day, and since it is after 10am your Network Railcard-discounted ticket is perfectly valid.

And in any case, even if it wasn't valid to travel after midnight on a Network Railcard-discounted ticket that was valid the previous day, you would be breaking your journey at Cambridge before midnight, so it really seems that there is no issue here at all.

 

[arb]

Oh - have I misinterpreted A60K's statement:

Is it the case that travelling via Stortford means that you board a train somewhere after midnight (so on Friday morning)? If so, perhaps that falls foul of the application of the morning peak restriction on railcards, even though it's still effectively Thursday's traffic day.

I took that to mean "you're not allowed to use a railcard after midnight". But did you mean "you can use a railcard after midnight, but the journey planners get it wrong and tell you that you can't"?

 

[island]

It's the second one. If your ticket's validity expires during your journey, you're allowed to continue using it, as far as I know, but not further break your journey.

 

[A60K]

Oh - have I misinterpreted A60K's statement:



I took that to mean "you're not allowed to use a railcard after midnight". But did you mean "you can use a railcard after midnight, but the journey planners get it wrong and tell you that you can't"?

That's what I meant, yes, sorry for any confusion! The journey planner is seeing 00.14 as 'before 10.00', but not then using the rule about it still being the previous traffic day - effectively 24.14 on the Thursday. Related, I believe Oyster has that sort of extended day logic built in to the system with its clock running to 28.30 internally so as to deal correctly with post-midnight travel.

 

[34D]

Only for the sale of tickets from machines. Not for the use of tickets already held, where the railway "day" starts at 0430.

Doesn't 04:30 to 04:29 only exist inside London zones 1-6 though?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

OK, yes this is definitely a journey planner glitch.

The railway day ends at 0430 so Network Card discounts are available on all travel until then.

The other thing just to remind people of is that it is not always the case that the routes and fares shown by NRE tie up, ie. you can be quoted a fare and route on it that in reality is not permitted. This is obviously very rare, given wider programming of easements into NRE, but can be an issue during weird diversions where NRE will show eg. London - Manchester via Leeds (because it is quicker) and show the West Coast SVR fare for it.

 

[John @ home]

Doesn't 04:30 to 04:29 only exist inside London zones 1-6 though?

On National Rail, the Conditions of Carriage and the ticket conditions changed on 5 October 2011. One of the NRCoC changes allowed the ticket conditions to be changed ending the "day" at 0430. We debated this at the time. See Revised NRCoC, especially posts 1 and 65.

An Anytime Single, for example, is now valid for 2 days and until 0429 on the third day. Unfortunately, some web sites such as National Rail Enquiries and East Coast are still displaying the old ticket conditions. Does anyone have a link to the new ticket conditions?