WCML vs ECML

[zwk500]

I can see why they don't like it, but when there's a need for better passenger pathing on the north WCML it seems inexcusable that we tolerate such slow running over Shap.

Assuming Labour results in a change of fortune for HS2 and those 6 paths are needed (4 north of Lancaster - 3 x HS2 and the Manchester) then I guess they'll need to do something about it properly.

Class 88/93/99 come to mind. Heaven forbid we did anything useful like wiring freight branches.

 

[Peter0124]

Not only that but the north WCML is vulnerable to disruption from broken down trains since it's two tracks pretty much the whole way from Preston to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

I've had broken down trains disrupt two journeys within the last month. A northern unit in Garstang. And a freight near the border.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not only that but the north WCML is vulnerable to disruption from broken down trains since it's two tracks pretty much the whole way from Preston to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Isn't the ECML also mostly two tracked, beyond Northallerton (and across the border, to Edinburgh)?

This thread feels like two bald men fighting over a comb. Who cares if it takes 10 minutes longer one way vs the other over 350 miles.

Quite!

 

[quantinghome]

Whereas the ECML is deadly boring south of about Durham or so.

Oh, I don't know about that. On their day the flatlands are pretty stunning. Sunbeams streaming through the clouds in the wide southern skies. Sunrise over the mist on a winter's morning...

 

[Peter0124]

Isn't the ECML also mostly two tracked, beyond Northallerton (and across the border, to Edinburgh)?

True, less freight on the ECML though.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Not correct. If Golborne is built, the plan is 2tph fast HS2, 1tph Lancaster terminator HS2 plus the Manchester and Birmingham classic services (and the Barrow/Windermere if that counts), that's six in total. It might mean more freight going a different way but that is the long term plan in so much as there is one.

Birmingham classic service? That seems a bit of a waste of HS2. Surely a much better use would be 1tph Birmingham via HS2? I'm not sure of the precise timings but Birmingham to Preston via HS2 can't be much more than an hour if Golborne is built, and probably not that much longer even if it isn't. Considering the masses of connections you have at Preston, I'd be astonished if a fast HS2 Birmingham->Preston->Scotland service couldn't justify itself in passenger numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham classic service? That seems a bit of a waste of HS2. Surely a much better use would be 1tph Birmingham via HS2? I'm not sure of the precise timings but Birmingham to Preston via HS2 can't be much more than an hour if Golborne is built, and probably not that much longer even if it isn't. Considering the masses of connections you have at Preston, I'd be astonished if a fast HS2 Birmingham->Preston->Scotland service couldn't justify itself in passenger numbers.

Sorry, I was getting mixed up. The Birmingham with Golborne would be HS2, the Manchester would be classic. On some versions of the proposal it would be a Euston-Manchester-Scotland service but nothing like that is anywhere near set in stone yet and it does have obvious problems discussed before.

 

[Peter0124]

Even without HS2:
The Euston-Manchester-Scotland service would've been good if it weren't for Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly. Could effectively replace the TPE trains and run the new service via Stoke to give direct connections to the north WCML.

There would probably need to be a 10-20 minute stopover at Piccadilly so the frequency can stay turn-up-and-go if the train from Scotland is running a bit late. And a problem though being it could get routed mainline through Warrington if its heavily delayed, skipping Manchester entirely to make up time. As the Scotland-Birmingham-Euston trains if really late, sometimes route Trent Valley and miss out the Birmingham stops.

Another downside to the through service would be effectively reducing capacity on the Manchester-London line, as those boarding further north will likely be filling the train up. The Birmingham services from Scotland aren't so bad seeing as there is plenty of alternative Birmingham to London trains.



EDIT: --

And speaking of the WCML, it looks like some Euston to Glasgow trains today are being diverted via Midcalder due to issues at Carluke. Guess we have a new long-term diversionary route since the blockade.

 

[zwk500]

And speaking of the WCML, it looks like some Euston to Glasgow trains today are being diverted via Midcalder due to issues at Carluke. Guess we have a new long-term diversionary route since the blockade.

I wouldn't hold too much hope of driver knowledge being deliberately retained, although of course if they keep having to use it then it may stay on the cards for a while yet!

 

[Kingston Dan]

True, less freight on the ECML though.

And it's a lot less hilly north of Newcastle than it is north of Carlisle.

 

[danielnez1]

Nah, give me Peterborough to Grantham everyday of the week!

I respectfully disagree!

 

[Krokodil]

There isn't much of a need for one even if they didn't. It's quite telling that Grand Union were after the North West, not Glasgow.

The availability of paths may have been a factor.

At some point, it will be faster to get from London to Edinburgh via HS2 and Carlisle. But that might have to wait until the Golborne Link gets built

EDIT: The Integrated Rail Plan (FWIW) says 228 minutes for London-Edinburgh via the Golborne Link compared to 270 minutes now. And 220 minutes for London-Glasgow.

Always struck me as odd that the (since mothballed) eastern leg services were supposed to terminate at Newcastle instead of continuing north. It would be slightly quicker than via Carlisle and I think that there is enough demand for both.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

As a Southern man I'm more than content with the three main railways south of the river, particularly the Brighton, to have a strong enough opinion on whether I prefer the East or West Coast. For some reason, my favourite north of the river mainline has always been the Great Eastern, I just wish it was a bit longer and stretched all the way to Great Yarmouth or Cromer.

The West Coast would be more interesting if it went via the M40 corridor. I find the Euston to Rugby section extremely boring. Probably the lack of junctions and inner suburban services turn me off. That said, I've had a closer relationship with the LMS than the LNER, considering I had a Duchess of Buccleuch 00 gauge local when I was a child with a lovely rake of LMS coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The West Coast would be more interesting if it went via the M40 corridor. I find the Euston to Rugby section extremely boring. Probably the lack of junctions and inner suburban services turn me off.

I'm a bit confused about that, because there are plenty of suburban services (LO and LNR), junctions (Wembley and Watford), urban scenery and the real beauty of the Chilterns which you don't see from the M40-following Chiltern Line itself!

I love the south WCML. It's genuinely quite pretty, particularly at sunrise or sunset.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I'm a bit confused about that, because there are plenty of suburban services (LO and LNR), junctions (Wembley and Watford), urban scenery and the real beauty of the Chilterns which you don't see from the M40-following Chiltern Line itself!

I love the south WCML. It's genuinely quite pretty, particularly at sunrise or sunset.

That is true, it is very nice to ride through the early mornings and evenings on.

I more mean the lack of branches. Just a straight line from London to Rugby apart from the Northampton Loop. Going via the M40 would have added XC at Banbury and the Aylesbury branch too. Perhaps even Oxford.

 

[12LDA28C]

That is true, it is very nice to ride through the early mornings and evenings on.

I more mean the lack of branches. Just a straight line from London to Rugby apart from the Northampton Loop. Going via the M40 would have added XC at Banbury and the Aylesbury branch too. Perhaps even Oxford.

It's a bit bizarre complaining that the WCML doesn't go via Princes Risborough and Banbury. The WCML is the WCML and the Chiltern mainline is the Chiltern mainline. If you prefer to travel via the Chiltern Railways route, just say that.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It's a bit bizarre complaining that the WCML doesn't go via Princes Risborough and Banbury. The WCML is the WCML and the Chiltern mainline is the Chiltern mainline. If you prefer to travel via the Chiltern Railways route, just say that.

I mean that it would make a more interesting route if it did, because of the potential for more branches and junctions in the south of the route

 

[12LDA28C]

I mean that it would make a more interesting route if it did, because of the potential for more branches and junctions in the south of the route

That's possibly true but only in the same way that claiming the Midland Mainline would be more scenic if it passed through the Scottish Highlands...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That's possibly true but only in the same way that claiming the Midland Mainline would be more scenic if it passed through the Scottish Highlands...

Well no...the M40 corridor is one of the two main London to Birmingham corridors. Plus if I'm mistaken the alternative London and Birmingham railway route via Aylesbury and Banbury only lost out to the Coventry route by one vote, so it could have plausibly happened.

 

[The Planner]

Well no...the M40 corridor is one of the two main London to Birmingham corridors. Plus if I'm mistaken the alternative London and Birmingham railway route via Aylesbury and Banbury only lost out to the Coventry route by one vote, so it could have plausibly happened.

Technically only since 1991 when the M40 extension opened.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well no...the M40 corridor is one of the two main London to Birmingham corridors. Plus if I'm mistaken the alternative London and Birmingham railway route via Aylesbury and Banbury only lost out to the Coventry route by one vote, so it could have plausibly happened.

But it didn't and we are where we are and the WCML is where it is so bemoaning the fact that it doesn't take an alternative route is ultimately pointless, that's my point. If the thread is debating the various merits or otherwise of the ECML and WCML then it probably makes rather more sense to discuss what is actually in existence rather than what might have been if a different route was chosen almost 200 years ago.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

But it didn't and we are where we are and the WCML is where it is so bemoaning the fact that it doesn't take an alternative route is ultimately pointless, that's my point. If the thread is debating the various merits or otherwise of the ECML and WCML then it probably makes rather more sense to discuss what is actually in existence rather than what might have been if a different route was chosen almost 200 years ago.

Come on man...I already explained why I thought the WCML would be more interesting if it went that route. Otherwise I'm not particularly fussed by either the West Coast or the East Coast

 

[185143]

Even without HS2:
The Euston-Manchester-Scotland service would've been good if it weren't for Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly. Could effectively replace the TPE trains and run the new service via Stoke to give direct connections to the north WCML.

There would probably need to be a 10-20 minute stopover at Piccadilly so the frequency can stay turn-up-and-go if the train from Scotland is running a bit late. And a problem though being it could get routed mainline through Warrington if its heavily delayed, skipping Manchester entirely to make up time. As the Scotland-Birmingham-Euston trains if really late, sometimes route Trent Valley and miss out the Birmingham stops.

Another downside to the through service would be effectively reducing capacity on the Manchester-London line, as those boarding further north will likely be filling the train up. The Birmingham services from Scotland aren't so bad seeing as there is plenty of alternative Birmingham to London trains.



EDIT: --

And speaking of the WCML, it looks like some Euston to Glasgow trains today are being diverted via Midcalder due to issues at Carluke. Guess we have a new long-term diversionary route since the blockade.

I remember being on an Virgin service crawling through Castlefield during the Acton Grange blockade a few years back.

Someone suggested to the TM that they should keep this routing all the time, I think she was travelling from Scotland to Stockport or something.

The TM's response was basically a very polite and professional way of saying "absolutely no effing way"! It was chaos, we lost a good 20 minutes on top of the additional time, Piccadilly 13 and 14 were carnage. A view clearly shared by Network Rail as no diverts have called since!

 

[The Planner]

I remember being on an Virgin service crawling through Castlefield during the Acton Grange blockade a few years back.

Someone suggested to the TM that they should keep this routing all the time, I think she was travelling from Scotland to Stockport or something.

The TM's response was basically a very polite and professional way of saying "absolutely no effing way"! It was chaos, we lost a good 20 minutes on top of the additional time, Piccadilly 13 and 14 were carnage. A view clearly shared by Network Rail as no diverts have called since!

The best that would be agreed now is set down only.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Come on man...I already explained why I thought the WCML would be more interesting if it went that route. Otherwise I'm not particularly fussed by either the West Coast or the East Coast

The problem is, if the WCML had gone that route through Aylesbury, then the entire subsequent history of the railways in that area - including where other lines got built to - would then have been different since so much of the planning would have been around where the WCML actually was. Milton Keynes would probably have been built somewhere between Aylesbury and Banbury, and many of the sights from the two routes would have become different. Maybe, in that alternative reality, you'd have been bemoaning that they didn't build the WCML along the prettier route through Watford and Bletchley

 

[irish_rail]

I'm neutral in that I live in the south west, but the WCML wins hands down on scenery, especially north of the Midlands. Shame about the traction, as the pendolino windows don't exactly take advantage of the views. An 80x up to Glasgow (with decent seats) would be lovely!