WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[cin88]

What was this seemingly notorious bad railtour behaviour; I'm intrigued!?

To tone down a quote from my dad when asked (drives for DRS, tends to guard on tours), "drunken hoi poli thinking that they own the blooming place, staggering about and making complete bottoms of themselves and causing all kinds of trouble for us".

Edit: I've just remembered that one day he came home complaining that a passenger that had been rather drunk managed to fall flat on his face on the platform, that kind of thing is apparently common.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Forgive me if this is not a viable solution, but what about crews from the NYMR? They go on the "big" railway when they run up to Whitby, so could something not be worked out with them?

 

[Whistler40145]

Waving arms out of door windows.

 

[221129]

Waving arms out of door windows.

Along with most of the upper body I seem to recall....

 

[Whistler40145]

That bad was it?

Anyway gentlemen, back to the original subject.

 

[Llanigraham]

Waving arms out of door windows.

From the recent photos in magasines, more like most of the body from waist upwards!
Plus reports of drunken and misappropriate behavior against other staff.

 

[CosherB]

Not really a precedent. The Royal Scotsman is an extremely prestigious train that TOCs would love to be associated with and if the rumours are correct GBRf have won the contract to operate it. That article also states GBRf don’t (didn’t?) have any passenger guards and they had to involve East Coast to perform the FTR exam. It is unlikely any TOC would bother with all that for a day trip full of pensioners to Carlisle.

Can you please clarify the, albeit "rumours", regarding the contractual position of Royal Scotsman haulage? Are you saying that Belmond has terminated it's contract with WCRC and signed a new deal with GBRf, or has GBRf stepped in on a temporary basis to replace WCRC until their assumed return to the mainline?

 

[furnessvale]

Can you please clarify the, albeit "rumours", regarding the contractual position of Royal Scotsman haulage? Are you saying that Belmond has terminated it's contract with WCRC and signed a new deal with GBRf, or has GBRf stepped in on a temporary basis to replace WCRC until their assumed return to the mainline?

That is a BIG assumption.

 

[Whistler40145]

It is a big assumption.

 

[infobleep]

No, not the majority, but they did manage some during last year's WCRC ban, and with WCRC stock. This included RTC's Great Britain VIII, but I don't think anyone would want a repeat of that shambles.

What was shambolic about it?

 

[Lankyline]

Just for info there is a full special piece in the latest edition of Rail Magazine on WCRC, including incident history, financials etc.
On another point, I've seen mention on here of would it be possible for Jeremy Hoskins company to step in, a quote from a spokesman for the company back in Jan (I think) said if they did, it would likely be in partnership with another company, no names mentioned.

 

[TBirdFrank]

I wondered when the elephant in the room would announce itself.

Last year NR allowed WCRC back onto the mainline after only a short suspension, provided it promised to behave itself.

The number of lost loco hire turns and the shambles - the utter total shambles -that was GB8 didn't bear thinking about.

Shambles - a trainload of GB8 passengers tottering round from one short term plan to another including being decanted onto East Coast's Inverness service, diesel haulage to try to pretend that the punters had got something - and after a fight a measly partial refund to passengers who should never have been put in such a parlous position.

We all knew over year end that WCRC were at risk again and hoped that it would not happen again - but it has - and the litany of incidents produced by ORR in support was worse than anyone expected - and this time its not NR but the ORR who have put a complete stop to all WCRC train operations on the network - steam and diesel.

The ORR has offered a way back but some of the best brains in the business - railwaymen and well known journalists - have figured out that the price tag is probably £1m and that it will take up to a year to fully implement - yet trains to be operated by WCRC can be found on all sorts of websites and tickets are actively being sold for trains set to run within the month.

That simply cannot be right and there are words to describe such activity but I won't use them here.

what I will say is that the movement needs to get together and if there is a new operator in the wings we need him in that phone box and changing his suit as soon as possible.

Lochaber cannot wait until 2017 and a mere handful of DBC resourced charters - which is all they are currently set up to do will be a pale shadow. As for the list of vacuum brake locos completely off the main line in this scenario.......... some of us saw it all coming but no-one believed us - well believe it now!

The UK does heritage very well - haste ye back!

 

[theironroad]

The ORR has offered a way back but some of the best brains in the business - railwaymen and well known journalists - have figured out that the price tag is probably £1m and that it will take up to a year to fully implement

Do you have a link/source for this?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Can you please clarify the, albeit "rumours", regarding the contractual position of Royal Scotsman haulage? Are you saying that Belmond has terminated it's contract with WCRC and signed a new deal with GBRf, or has GBRf stepped in on a temporary basis to replace WCRC until their assumed return to the mainline?

I don’t know any more than what I’ve already said and don’t even know if it is true. Contracts to operate British Pullman, Northern Belle and the Royal Scotsman are fixed term so they do change operators from time to time. DBS used to operate all three and now they only have the BP. Whether the contract was due for renewal or whether Belmond terminated it early due to last season’s issues I don’t know. We will only know if any of it is true when somebody puts out a press release or if/when WCRC are back on the railway and they do or don’t recommence operating it.

Although having said that, if you were operating a service aimed at the high-end market and charging £5k pp would you want to be associated with a company that in the last 12 months has had a Network Rail imposed suspension and I believe 2 ORR Improvement Notices and 2 Prohibition Notices – all safety related?

 

[TBirdFrank]

The source is the nine page ORR suspension letter which contains the "paint by numbers" way back to the main line.

1

Appointment of three SEOs acceptable to ORR in Ops, Safety and engineering, Say three months to advertise interview appoint and get ORR sign off - probably £150k each at that level including overheads - £450k total

2

These guys aren't going to do the work themselves. They will need a team of experts in their fields - say three in each - £150k per team being conservative - so there's the balance to around £1m

It will now be around August before work compiling the manuals starts.

3

The manuals and other requirements will also require ongoing approval by ORR so again I would not expect roll out to be achievable before around November.

4

Now the whole exercise needs to be cascaded across the workforce, adopted and signed for and then the complete exercise reported to ORR

So you can see how 2017 soon looms up on the horizon.

If anyone with a history in the railway can see a short cut to the end point I would be interested to hear - but no-one from those circles has taken it apart yet.

 

[Whistler40145]

Then the absolute opposite can occur, David Smith decides to throw in the towel and call it a day.

 

[lincolnshire]

I wondered when the elephant in the room would announce itself.

Last year NR allowed WCRC back onto the mainline after only a short suspension, provided it promised to behave itself.

The number of lost loco hire turns and the shambles - the utter total shambles -that was GB8 didn't bear thinking about.

Shambles - a trainload of GB8 passengers tottering round from one short term plan to another including being decanted onto East Coast's Inverness service, diesel haulage to try to pretend that the punters had got something - and after a fight a measly partial refund to passengers who should never have been put in such a parlous position.

We all knew over year end that WCRC were at risk again and hoped that it would not happen again - but it has - and the litany of incidents produced by ORR in support was worse than anyone expected - and this time its not NR but the ORR who have put a complete stop to all WCRC train operations on the network - steam and diesel.

The ORR has offered a way back but some of the best brains in the business - railwaymen and well known journalists - have figured out that the price tag is probably £1m and that it will take up to a year to fully implement - yet trains to be operated by WCRC can be found on all sorts of websites and tickets are actively being sold for trains set to run within the month.

That simply cannot be right and there are words to describe such activity but I won't use them here.

what I will say is that the movement needs to get together and if there is a new operator in the wings we need him in that phone box and changing his suit as soon as possible.

Lochaber cannot wait until 2017 and a mere handful of DBC resourced charters - which is all they are currently set up to do will be a pale shadow. As for the list of vacuum brake locos completely off the main line in this scenario.......... some of us saw it all coming but no-one believed us - well believe it now!

The UK does heritage very well - haste ye back!

Looking at whats happening to me this could be the end of all charter trains on the Network except for say the Scotsman, Northern Belle & Orient Express, maybe such as the Jackobite which does,t run on the main lines ( east / west coast lines etc) and MYMR to Whitby may still run but the rest I can see been the end of them. If somebody next decides that the coaching stock is no longer safe and does,t meet the safety standards for mainline running that will end a lot. The same thing happened in the cruise industry the SOLAS requirements for safety etc removed a lot of older ships to the scrap yards was it was not financially worth rebuilding them to the standards to meet the regulation.s.

Like it or not it looks to me as this is a backdoor method by a certain party to get rid of WCR and charter trains, as some of the others who are still in it may decide that its no longer cost effective for them as against there main business of freight movement.

Just after to wait and see what happens, so before people cry me down lets see what happens I may be wrong.

 

[furnessvale]

Looking at whats happening to me this could be the end of all charter trains on the Network except for say the Scotsman, Northern Belle & Orient Express, maybe such as the Jackobite which does,t run on the main lines ( east / west coast lines etc) and MYMR to Whitby may still run but the rest I can see been the end of them. If somebody next decides that the coaching stock is no longer safe and does,t meet the safety standards for mainline running that will end a lot. The same thing happened in the cruise industry the SOLAS requirements for safety etc removed a lot of older ships to the scrap yards was it was not financially worth rebuilding them to the standards to meet the regulation.s.

Like it or not it looks to me as this is a backdoor method by a certain party to get rid of WCR and charter trains, as some of the others who are still in it may decide that its no longer cost effective for them as against there main business of freight movement.

Just after to wait and see what happens, so before people cry me down lets see what happens I may be wrong.

The only party getting rid of WCR is WCR and I don't see a lot of backdoor about it.

 

[theironroad]

Well the orr prohibition notice is not the source for claims of £1m and 12 months. It lays out what is required to be done, but not costs or time frames.

So, either those figures have been estimated by you or there is another source for them.

I agree that the Lochaber region can't wait, as wcrc operation of the regular service has been great for tourism, but we need facts not speculation.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree furnessvale.

 

[theironroad]

Looking at whats happening to me this could be the end of all charter trains on the Network except for say the Scotsman, Northern Belle & Orient Express, maybe such as the Jackobite which does,t run on the main lines ( east / west coast lines etc) and MYMR to Whitby may still run but the rest I can see been the end of them. If somebody next decides that the coaching stock is no longer safe and does,t meet the safety standards for mainline running that will end a lot. The same thing happened in the cruise industry the SOLAS requirements for safety etc removed a lot of older ships to the scrap yards was it was not financially worth rebuilding them to the standards to meet the regulation.s.

Like it or not it looks to me as this is a backdoor method by a certain party to get rid of WCR and charter trains, as some of the others who are still in it may decide that its no longer cost effective for them as against there main business of freight movement.

Just after to wait and see what happens, so before people cry me down lets see what happens I may be wrong.

I think you may well be right. Whatever happens with wcrc, I think the mainline and heritage charter market is going to be pruned back a lot into a much slimmer operation.

 

[CosherB]

Like it or not it looks to me as this is a backdoor method by a certain party to get rid of WCR and charter trains, as some of the others who are still in it may decide that its no longer cost effective for them as against there main business of freight movement.

A pretty shabby comment. WCRC are responsible for getting WCRC into this mess, and WCRC are responsible for sorting out WCRCs problems. Clear?

 

[The Crab]

A pretty shabby comment. WCRC are responsible for getting WCRC into this mess, and WCRC are responsible for sorting out WCRCs problems. Clear?

Spot on!

 

[ainsworth74]

The only party getting rid of WCR is WCR and I don't see a lot of backdoor about it.

Indeed! I don't see how this is a backdoor attempt by anyone to do anything. This would seem to be WCRC's own incompetence, intransigence and ego catching up with them rather than an external party with a vendetta.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed! I don't see how this is a backdoor attempt by anyone to do anything. This would seem to be WCRC's own incompetence, intransigence and ego catching up with them rather than an external party with a vendetta.

Absolutely. WCRC's attitude towards safety has been so laissez faire that it is actually very fortunate that they didn't end up causing large numbers of fatalities.

 

[D1009]

What was shambolic about it?

The UK steam info site details what happened operationally.

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs15.htm#apr

If you want to book for this year, details are here:

http://www.railwaytouring.net/travel-tours/great-britain-ix

 

[Llanigraham]

Looking at whats happening to me this could be the end of all charter trains on the Network except for say the Scotsman, Northern Belle & Orient Express, maybe such as the Jackobite which does,t run on the main lines ( east / west coast lines etc) and MYMR to Whitby may still run but the rest I can see been the end of them. If somebody next decides that the coaching stock is no longer safe and does,t meet the safety standards for mainline running that will end a lot. The same thing happened in the cruise industry the SOLAS requirements for safety etc removed a lot of older ships to the scrap yards was it was not financially worth rebuilding them to the standards to meet the regulation.s.

Like it or not it looks to me as this is a backdoor method by a certain party to get rid of WCR and charter trains, as some of the others who are still in it may decide that its no longer cost effective for them as against there main business of freight movement.

Just after to wait and see what happens, so before people cry me down lets see what happens I may be wrong.

If you mean Network Rail then say so.
And I personally I think you are totally wrong on that idea.
This was whole debacle has been caused by one party, and one party only; WCR!

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes, what's Network Rail got to do with the WCRC situation?

 

[Mvann]

Just out of curiosity, have scotrail moved any further with doing steam tours/services in Scotland?

 

[Agent_c]

Just out of curiosity, have scotrail moved any further with doing steam tours/services in Scotland?

I remember something at the first suspension. I think they changed operator as a result, and many did run.

There's nothing scheduled at the moment though