WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[CHESHIRECAT]

A fish rots from the head down...

 

[QueensCurve]

No, I can't see a contradiction. WCRC is a viable business - they've operated successfully since 1998 as a TOC so how you can say they "had a business that didn't work" is a bit of a mystery to me.

WCRC is only a viable business if they are able to run trains. If they can't run trains there is no income.

Even if they are allowed to run trains, there is the question of whether anyone (stand fast steam buffs) wants to buy tickets with an operator that has been banned from running trains and prosecuted because they are unsafe.
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Because people want to see them fail.

I am not sure anyone "want to see them fail". Rather they want to see them operate safely. The alternative is that they do fail, not because that is the desired outcome, but because they are not fit and proper operators.

 

[talldave]

WCRC is only a viable business if they are able to run trains. If they can't run trains there is no income.

.....

But if the boss (who, ironically, seems to be the root cause of the problems?) is happy to keep pumping his money into the business, he's free to do so - and it might even keep some people employed tinkering with trains. There's no need to "call in the administrator". Sure it's not a profit making business, but as long as the accounts are in order and they're not out inflicting their unsafe practices on the rest of us, what's the problem?

 

[CosherB]

WCRC is only a viable business if they are able to run trains. If they can't run trains there is no income.

Even if they are allowed to run trains, there is the question of whether anyone (stand fast steam buffs) wants to buy tickets with an operator that has been banned from running trains and prosecuted because they are unsafe.
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Credit me with a little business sense - even I can see that the long term future of a TOC is pretty bleak if they can't run trains! My point is that it is compliance issues that are preventing WCRC from operating a viable business.

 

[edwin_m]

There's also the question of whether the business is viable without the previous cutting of corners on safety (which would have ceased to be viable had they had a major accident, but few people realised that at the time).

 

[najaB]

There's also the question of whether the business is viable without the previous cutting of corners on safety...

Based on what we know, the corners they cut weren't actually things that cost a lot (or any) money. How much money does it cost to actually have the tamper-seal on a TPWS isolation switch/valve?

 

[D1009]

WCRC is only a viable business if they are able to run trains. If they can't run trains there is no income.

Not quite true, their locomotive and rolling stock fleet is available to be hired by people using other operators to operate trains. This appears to be the case with this Saturday's "Midday Scot" tour.

 

[edwin_m]

Based on what we know, the corners they cut weren't actually things that cost a lot (or any) money. How much money does it cost to actually have the tamper-seal on a TPWS isolation switch/valve?

Thinking more of how much it might cost to maintain proper traction and particularly route knowledge if your drivers are on zero hours contracts.

 

[theblackwatch]

Not quite true, their locomotive and rolling stock fleet is available to be hired by people using other operators to operate trains. This appears to be the case with this Saturday's "Midday Scot" tour.

And there's a loco earning a nice bit of revenue at Warner Bros studio in Watford I suspect as well....

 

[TBirdFrank]

46233 does not belong to WCRC

I can't say from where the stock is being sourced - but the fact it is going back to Crewe strongly supports conjecture that it is not WCRC stock either.

 

[alastair]

46233 does not belong to WCRC

I can't say from where the stock is being sourced - but the fact it is going back to Crewe strongly supports conjecture that it is not WCRC stock either.

Or maybe it is..

I think its going to Crewe because there is a block north of Preston on Saturday night.

This looks like the ECS going back to Carnforth on Sunday:http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U50684/2016/03/20/advanced

 

[furnessvale]

Based on what we know, the corners they cut weren't actually things that cost a lot (or any) money. How much money does it cost to actually have the tamper-seal on a TPWS isolation switch/valve?

Depends why the seal was broken. If every thing was working properly there was no need to break that seal, so something was wrong.

At the very least, the loco should have been taken out of service for checks which would have cost serious money.

 

[najaB]

Depends why the seal was broken. If every thing was working properly there was no need to break that seal, so something was wrong.

Indications are that there was no need to break it, but that's the subject of an ongoing court action.

 

[ComUtoR]

How much money does it cost to actually have the tamper-seal on a TPWS isolation switch/valve?

I saw a pack of 100 seals on amazon.co.uk for £12.99. Soooooooooooo that's about £300 per seal in railway money.

 

[ainsworth74]

I saw a pack of 100 seals on amazon.co.uk for £12.99. Soooooooooooo that's about £300 per seal in railway money.

Still hardly enough to destroy WCRCs business case!

 

[bramling]

Based on what we know, the corners they cut weren't actually things that cost a lot (or any) money. How much money does it cost to actually have the tamper-seal on a TPWS isolation switch/valve?

Depending on their performance penalty regime, presumably the bigger cost, either financial or reputational, could be the cost of delay minutes whilst an AWS or TPWS activation is correctly followed up.

There are plenty of individuals in railway management positions who are prepared to cut corners if it gets a train moving quicker for the benefit of their own performance figures. Fortunately the structure of the railway means this attitude tends not to extend to the front line.

 

[najaB]

Depending on their performance penalty regime, presumably the bigger cost, either financial or reputational, could be the cost of delay minutes whilst an AWS or TPWS activation is correctly followed up.

Which comes back to the idea that the issue isn't with their business strategy, but rather with their day-to-day operating model.

 

[CosherB]

There are plenty of individuals in railway management positions who are prepared to cut corners if it gets a train moving quicker for the benefit of their own performance figures.

Have you written to the ORR with evidence to support your claims?

 

[Lankyline]

Thinking more of how much it might cost to maintain proper traction and particularly route knowledge if your drivers are on zero hours contracts.

Which is also two of the ORR's issues, namely lack of a system to regularly update route knowledge and move staff off zero hours contracts

 

[D1009]

Which is also two of the ORR's issues, namely lack of a system to regularly update route knowledge and move staff off zero hours contracts

Have there been any actual incidents caused by a lack of route knowledge on the part of their drivers? Yes I know the potential is there, but have there been any actual incidents?

 

[CosherB]

Have there been any actual incidents caused by a lack of route knowledge on the part of their drivers? Yes I know the potential is there, but have there been any actual incidents?

I take it you're a supporter of WCRC - you can carve up the prohibition notice into small chunks and try and justify a defence in isolation, but the sum of the prohibition notice is greater than it's parts, and hence the ban.

 

[D1009]

I take it you're a supporter of WCRC - you can carve up the prohibition notice into small chunks and try and justify a defence in isolation, but the sum of the prohibition notice is greater than it's parts, and hence the ban.

If you mean am I trying to defend them then the answer is no, they have lawyers to do that. I was thinking more of the wider issue of train crew on zero hours contracts, and how that can or can't be managed safely. An issue I suspect not unique to WCRC.

 

[najaB]

Have there been any actual incidents caused by a lack of route knowledge on the part of their drivers?

Impossible to answer for sure, but lack of route knowledge may well have been behind the Stafford incident. I'm sure that is one of the things the court will be seeking to determine.

 

[Rail Ranger]

If you mean the class 47 SPAD it didn't involve West Coast.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Have there been any actual incidents caused by a lack of route knowledge on the part of their drivers? Yes I know the potential is there, but have there been any actual incidents?

You won't have far to go to find someone who thinks they've been passed by a WCRC train that's maybe been bobbing along a bit too fast or a bit too slow, particularly if there's been a change in line speed recently.

You also hear things coming through the grapevine - trains rolling back, which suggests the drivers aren't remembering gradients, brake applications in odd places, just little things that suggest they're rusty, have forgotten bits of the route, haven't kept up with changes, that sort of thing.

It's definitely not a WCRC unique issue, but what may be an issue with WCRC will be some sort of failure to properly manage OTDR downloads and in turn manage their drivers. If they're not looking to see how good or bad their drivers are on a regular basis, that's as significant a failure as their safety failures with respect to safety systems.

 

[najaB]

If you mean the class 47 SPAD it didn't involve West Coast.

Sorry. I meant the incident at Wootton Bassett, but had a brainfart.

 

[Lankyline]

Have there been any actual incidents caused by a lack of route knowledge on the part of their drivers? Yes I know the potential is there, but have there been any actual incidents?

Nothing stated by the ORR, but the issue was the lack of management systems and oversight relating to ensuring up to date route knowledge

 

[CosherB]

The Royal Scotsman is an extremely prestigious train that TOCs would love to be associated with and if the rumours are correct GBRf have won the contract to operate it.

Maybe your rumours are true .... Caledonian duo 73968 and 73969 had a run to Carnforth to collect and haul to Royal Scotsman stock to Kilmarnock, and later on to Bo'ness.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If you mean am I trying to defend them then the answer is no, they have lawyers to do that. I was thinking more of the wider issue of train crew on zero hours contracts, and how that can or can't be managed safely. An issue I suspect not unique to WCRC.

Then the drivers need to be salaried with the correct training given and audited as part of WCRC's safety case. Yes it may well put the cost of a kettle tour up, but the punters will more than likely pay. Zero hour contracts within safety critical roles are not a good idea.

 

[SPADTrap]

I'm sure one of the Flying Scotsman's firemen on it's run down the ECML was a WCRC fireman.