WCRC Exemption from CDL (central door locking) regulations until September

[Bill57p9]

I believe for main line any CDL must fail safe, which makes a servo lock a somewhat challenging design, without something like A break glass override.

There are fail safe security door locks which are solenoid based that could work, though a reliable power supply would be required.

Ultimately the actual technology will be fairly cheap. The cost will be certification of A new design.

 

[DJ_K666]

But then you come back to how that's going to be powered.

Phosphor bronze contacts in the door frame and powered from the batteries which are charged by the dynamo underneath the coach.

 

[skyhigh]

Phosphor bronze contacts in the door frame and powered from the batteries which are charged by the dynamo underneath the coach.

It's suggested upthread that the dynamo and batteries aren't suitable for a safety system.

The batteries and dynamos are a well known issue with maintaining just the lighting on early MK1 coaches especially on low speed runs there's no way they could maintain static convertors for CDL even with LEDs.

 

[43096]

I believe for main line any CDL must fail safe, which makes a servo lock a somewhat challenging design, without something like A break glass override.

There are fail safe security door locks which are solenoid based that could work, though a reliable power supply would be required.

Ultimately the actual technology will be fairly cheap. The cost will be certification of A new design.

It doesn't need a new design. Hastings Diesels have fitted a design that needs a power supply, but don't think it needs an air supply (so would be OK with vacuum braked vehicles) - but needs a suitable power source. Plenty of details here: https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2005a02/

What is notable is that the Hastings unit was fitted many years ago. If they can do it, there really is no excuse for WCRC.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Wait ; CDL retrofitted to slam door stock ?
May I introduce you to the Night Riviera system..... ?
Should be easily adapted to mk 1s whatever the braking system.

 

[Townsend Hook]

There is a part of a mk1 coach door catch. The bolt itself and a smaller square section piece which is what latches the twist handle at an angle when the door is open.

If this was to be used on a kind of servo to engage and disengagd it, along with limiting how far the window can open then maybe a cheap form of CDL could be devised which wouldn't bankrupt WCR

CDL is not going to bankrupt them, however they shape it.

 

[43096]

Wait ; CDL retrofitted to slam door stock ?
May I introduce you to the Night Riviera system..... ?
Should be easily adapted to mk 1s whatever the braking system.

Have they received a completely new CDL system that doesn’t use air, then?

 

[paul1609]

Wait ; CDL retrofitted to slam door stock ?
May I introduce you to the Night Riviera system..... ?
Should be easily adapted to mk 1s whatever the braking system.

What power source does the NR system use?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What power source does the NR system use?

It's the same as any other Mk3, with a gadget added to lock the window.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Anything is possible with money which West Coast have enough of to engineer a system, reading above there appears to be at least 2 already in existence. I know lots of people on here don’t like anything to do with batteries but modern batteries will easily do what is required in terms of power source with a top up every night, no we do not need to hang a noisy diesel underneath a carriage.

Most importantly why are West Coast throwing money away going to court? The only people who ever win are the lawyers, perhaps their lawyer fancied making a bonus out of them.

 

[43096]

It's the same as any other Mk3, with a gadget added to lock the window.

If that’s the case it needs an air connection (off main res, from memory). So not suitable for vacuum brake.

 

[renegademaster]

I don't entirely buy that you can't run CDL off the dynamo power. A servo for the latch will draw much less power than a light bulb. The motor doesn't need to support the whole weight of the door, just put a latch in a position

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Most importantly why are West Coast throwing money away going to court? The only people who ever win are the lawyers, perhaps their lawyer fancied making a bonus out of them.

The owner of WCRC has form when it comes to doing things his way regardless and ignoring the advice of qualified professionals. He was publicly criticised for this in the wake of the Wooton Basset incident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't entirely buy that you can't run CDL off the dynamo power. A servo for the latch will draw much less power than a light bulb. The motor doesn't need to support the whole weight of the door, just put a latch in a position

It's totally possible, but none of the current off the shelf versions work like that so you would have to design one, which isn't that hard but comes at a cost to have it certified for mainline use etc. The Mk3 one uses air pressure to hold the bolt in place (so can't be fitted to vacuum braked coaches), whereas the "Chiltern" Mk1 design also used on the Swanage DMU uses electromagnets to hold the door closed (which requires rather more power than a small servo on a bolt). The Jacobite coaches don't have an air supply or a mains (ETH) electricity supply.

The ideal would be something like the European "door blocking" system that uses an electromagnet to mechanically disconnect the inside handle (and add such a handle), then the windows could be sealed up too. Why BR never implemented this system I will never understand, it would have saved countless lives.

 

[John R]

Was on the Lincoln Xmas Express last Sat, and was sat at the front of coach A. It was obvious that the bay next to us was occupied by those involved in the tour and the discussion of the issue inevitably came up at which point my ears pricked up.

It was stated that WCRC felt that “someone else”, (maybe Network Rail) should pay, and used the analogy that when retention toilets had to be fitted, WCRC was apparently reimbursed for the cost, as it wasn’t their fault that the rules had changed.

Have no idea whether that’s true, but I did think “good luck with that” when it was said.

 

[43096]

Was on the Lincoln Xmas Express last Sat, and was sat at the front of coach A. It was obvious that the bay next to us was occupied by those involved in the tour and the discussion of the issue inevitably came up at which point my ears pricked up.

It was stated that WCRC felt that “someone else”, (maybe Network Rail) should pay, and used the analogy that when retention toilets had to be fitted, WCRC was apparently reimbursed for the cost, as it wasn’t their fault that the rules had changed.

Have no idea whether that’s true, but I did think “good luck with that” when it was said.

The CET fit comes under the Network Change provisions so was centrally funded. CDL is not under that process as it has been a legal requirement for 20+ years (but with exemptions). Other operators have paid for their own fitment programmes so why should WCRC be any different?

 

[John R]

Thanks for the info @43096. I did think it was a rather simplistic and optimistic position to take, which amongst other things, explains why the company is in the position it is in.

 

[DJ_K666]

It's totally possible, but none of the current off the shelf versions work like that so you would have to design one, which isn't that hard but comes at a cost to have it certified for mainline use etc. The Mk3 one uses air pressure to hold the bolt in place (so can't be fitted to vacuum braked coaches), whereas the "Chiltern" Mk1 design also used on the Swanage DMU uses electromagnets to hold the door closed (which requires rather more power than a small servo on a bolt). The Jacobite coaches don't have an air supply or a mains (ETH) electricity supply.

The ideal would be something like the European "door blocking" system that uses an electromagnet to mechanically disconnect the inside handle (and add such a handle), then the windows could be sealed up too. Why BR never implemented this system I will never understand, it would have saved countless lives.

What I had in mind was something not unlike how a London taxi's doors lock once it reaches 3mph.

Back it up with a hand operated dead bolt like they have at the moment and thd ORR really can't complain about it. the way I see it if a preserved railway fitted one of its out of service coaches as a kind of proof of concept, stick a second dynamo under the coach and see if a prototype can't be put together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I had in mind was something not unlike how a London taxi's doors lock once it reaches 3mph.

Back it up with a hand operated dead bolt like they have at the moment and thd ORR really can't complain about it. the way I see it if a preserved railway fitted one of its out of service coaches as a kind of proof of concept, stick a second dynamo under the coach and see if a prototype can't be put together.

The taxi system is I think similar to the European railway one in disconnecting the inside handle by way of a servo.

It's all possible, it is just mainline testing that costs.

 

[DJ_K666]

It doesn't need a new design. Hastings Diesels have fitted a design that needs a power supply, but don't think it needs an air supply (so would be OK with vacuum braked vehicles) - but needs a suitable power source. Plenty of details here: https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2005a02/

What is notable is that the Hastings unit was fitted many years ago. If they can do it, there really is no excuse for WCRC.

Aha. Those plastic boxes (the ones with the bell switch and door lock button) are things that are readily available and I have had the dubious pleasure of working with them before. Lots of grey Swarf, if I remember correctly (although that may be because of the drill not being ground for plastic/brass - anyone with a toolmaking background will know what I mean)

Hastings Diesels have worked wonders with their units it must be said. Incorporated modern technology with a period appearance. The way it should be done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2023 ==

The taxi system is I think similar to the European railway one in disconnecting the inside handle by way of a servo.

It's all possible, it is just mainline testing that costs.

Always the way. Plus the training of train crews in how to use it. I'd still retain the bolt inside the door though. Even if it's someone with a T key who reaches out and unlocks the door at each stop (after the train has stopped, of course)

 

[Bill57p9]

It doesn't need a new design. Hastings Diesels have fitted a design that needs a power supply, but don't think it needs an air supply (so would be OK with vacuum braked vehicles) - but needs a suitable power source. Plenty of details here: https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2005a02/

What is notable is that the Hastings unit was fitted many years ago. If they can do it, there really is no excuse for WCRC.

Thanks for posting that. Really interesting and shows that there is no excuse - especially as the Hastings unit was fitted in 16 years ago.

 

[jamieP]

The CET fit comes under the Network Change provisions so was centrally funded. CDL is not under that process as it has been a legal requirement for 20+ years (but with exemptions). Other operators have paid for their own fitment programmes so why should WCRC be any different?

Still waiting to see how VT plan on fitting CDL to their vac stock

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for posting that. Really interesting and shows that there is no excuse - especially as the Hastings unit was fitted in 16 years ago.

Indeed. @43096 apologies I missed your post!

If this design exists, which could presumably just be run off 24V batteries as it doesn't seem to involve holding a bolt on electrically (or if it does the servo will be quite small), then there's really no excuse.

Very interesting that Hastings have gone for driver release, guard close!

 

[Meerkat]

Do the customers for the Jacobite care about hearing/smelling the steam loco? I got the impression they were tourists wanting to tick off riding on the Hogwarts Express.
Could put a feed through the PA from a microphone on the loco if a bit of atmosphere is needed.
Not being a Harry Potter fan (rather bemused at so much fuss over a kids book tbh) I hadn’t realised the wide appeal until I stopped off at the viaduct to take a look and found scores of people from all over the world all over the hillside. Asking what they were there for I was told the Hogwarts Express was coming (in a Scandinavian accent).

 

[anothertyke]

The Jacobite has been running since J K Rowling was a teenager. For many years it has been one of the bucket list things to do on a tour of the Highlands. Although I would vote for the Kyle Line, the West highland Extension is one of the most scenic lines in Britain. Maybe Harry Potter is what justified the afternoon trip being added but yes, the punters want 'the authentic steam experience'.

 

[Egg Centric]

Most importantly why are West Coast throwing money away going to court? The only people who ever win are the lawyers, perhaps their lawyer fancied making a bonus out of them.

Presumably on a "first they came for the local doors" basis. The railway is going to keep inventing regulations until running a heritage operation is impractical so the more that can be done to slow them down the better from WCR's point of view.

Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your view as to what the railways are for.

 

[nanstallon]

The elfansafety religion is even worse than the strict Presbyterians who made (or perhaps still make) life a misery for the locals in the Highlands and Islands. Not for nothing called the Elfansafety Taleban - similar fanaticism although the consequences are of course nothing like as dire as in Afghanistan.

 

[JKF]

And yet those of us who know people that have died at work due to poor safety practices might regard cynicism about health and safety as misplaced.

 

[John R]

The elfansafety religion is even worse than the strict Presbyterians who made (or perhaps still make) life a misery for the locals in the Highlands and Islands. Not for nothing called the Elfansafety Taleban - similar fanaticism although the consequences are of course nothing like as dire as in Afghanistan.

Problem is that the dispensation they had required them to do certain things to mitigate the risk, which they failed to do consistently, and were caught out by a spot check. So to some extent they are the architects of their own misfortune.

 

[craigybagel]

Problem is that the dispensation they had required them to do certain things to mitigate the risk, which they failed to do consistently, and were caught out by a spot check. So to some extent they are the architects of their own misfortune.

And it's hardly like it was the first time WCRC were shown to not be in complete compliance with the rules. The fact they were given any dispensations at all given their past record suggests that the much maligned Health & Safety brigade were actually being more than reasonable.