WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[43096]

That derogation has been rescinded today, January 11th with immediate effect.

Document here...

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-01/wcrc-regulation-5-revocation-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I read it as all stock, even if they fitted CDL.
It states ‘all hinged stock’.

No. Because it's the exemption from having CDL which has been withdrawn.

An operator can run hinged door stock without an exemption as long as it has CDL.

You need an exemption from the rules if you want to run stock without CDL.

They had an exemption from the rules.

The exemption has been revoked.

Therefore they now need to comply with the rules relating to hinged door stock.

 

[800001]

No. Because it's the exemption from having CDL which has been withdrawn.

An operator can run hinged door stock without an exemption as long as it has CDL.

You need an exemption from the rules if you want to run stock without CDL.

They had an exemption from the rules.

The exemption has been revoked.

Therefore they now need to comply with the rules relating to hinged door stock.

Ah fair enough

 

[father_jack]

I read it as all stock, even if they fitted CDL.
It states ‘all hinged stock’.

It's hinged door stock under the existing exemption.

 

[Dave S 56F]

So it's only west coast railways only affected by this certificate from O.R.R. no other T.O.C. at a 1st guess?

It's hinged door stock under the existing exemption.

So how comes railway touring company who usually use west coast railways carriages and locomotives based at Carnforth are still taking bookings for their tours and still have a 3 quarterly Tour programme advertisement brochure up until September then if W.C.R.C. coaching stock are not allowed on the main line metals?

 

[800001]

So it's only west coast railways only affected by this certificate from O.R.R. no other T.O.C. at a 1st guess?


So how comes railway touring company who usually use west coast railways carriages and locomotives based at Carnforth are still taking bookings for their tours and still have a 3 quarterly Tour programme advertisement brochure up until September then if W.C.R.C. coaching stock are not allowed on the main line metals?

Because it’s literally just been announced today that the certificate has been rescinded.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Because it’s literally just been announced today that the certificate has been rescinded.

Does it mean all T.O.C. with hinged doors or just W.C.R.C. then?

 

[43096]

Does it mean all T.O.C. with hinged doors or just W.C.R.C. then?

If you look at the actual document in the post above yours, it is very clearly just WCRC.

 

[800001]

Does it mean all T.O.C. with hinged doors or just W.C.R.C. then?

West Coast Railways as stated on the certificate of revocation (shown in post 213)

 

[alholmes]

I think some people are getting a bit carried away here.

Firstly, the certificate of revocation issued today only relates to WCRC.

Secondly, it relates to the ”prohibition … in regulation 5(1) of the Regulations…”. I think that’s the regulation which requires CDL. If so, then my interpretation is that the revocation only stops WCRC from using hinged-door stock which doesn’t have CDL fitted - and therefore they can still operate stock which does have “proper” CDL fitted.

 

[43096]

I think some people are getting a bit carried away here.

Firstly, the certificate of revocation issued today only relates to WCRC.

Secondly, it relates to the ”prohibition … in regulation 5(1) of the Regulations…”. I think that’s the regulation which requires CDL. If so, then my interpretation is that the revocation only stops WCRC from using hinged-door stock which doesn’t have CDL fitted - and therefore they can still operate stock which does have “proper” CDL fitted.

But how much CDL fitted stock does WCRC operate? As I understand it the number is not unadjacent to zero.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

At least we’ll see no more deaths from passengers falling out of charter trains. The world is a lot safer.

 

[Meole]

Other operators appear to have met the requirement or have ongoing agreed plans to do so, whereas it seems WC decided on a head on challenge and lost big time.

 

[Starmill]

Because it’s literally just been announced today that the certificate has been rescinded.

To be fair, since WCRC's Judicial Review claim failed, that's been inevitable for quite so time now.

I think some people are getting a bit carried away here.

Firstly, the certificate of revocation issued today only relates to WCRC.

Secondly, it relates to the ”prohibition … in regulation 5(1) of the Regulations…”. I think that’s the regulation which requires CDL. If so, then my interpretation is that the revocation only stops WCRC from using hinged-door stock which doesn’t have CDL fitted - and therefore they can still operate stock which does have “proper” CDL fitted.

If they have, or can source, rolling stock which complies with the regulation, then they are of course free to use it in the normal way.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

To be fair, since WCRC's Judicial Review claim failed, that's been inevitable for quite so time now.

Yes, but I think there’s been a hope that WCRC would positively engage with ORR and develop a plan for going forward, enabling further interim extension. So this suggests that either this hasn’t happened, or ORR are deciding to treat WCRC differently to other operators.

 

[Meole]

To be fair, since WCRC's Judicial Review claim failed, that's been inevitable for quite so time now.

It appears that WC had to come up with a viable implementation plan to avoid the "inevitable", it looks like there was a lack of positive engagement.

 

[Wolfie]

Personally the ORR have made the correct decision. WCRC clearly have the wrong safety culture, and an operator like that has no place on the mainline.
Who knows what other shortcuts and cost savings have been made elsewhere

Wrong safety culture? To be blunt it's nearer to no safety culture.

It appears that WC had to come up with a viable implementation plan to avoid the "inevitable", it looks like there was a lack of positive engagement.

Given the attitude of their owners that is sadly unsurprising.

 

[LRV3004]

So does this mean they are able to continue supplying locos to LNER for the Thunderbird work?

 

[skyhigh]

So does this mean they are able to continue supplying locos to LNER for the Thunderbird work?

This has absolutely no effect on that contract.

 

[800001]

So does this mean they are able to continue supplying locos to LNER for the Thunderbird work?

This only involves coaches with hinge doors and no central door locks.

 

[renegademaster]

Are the coming tours going to end up cancelled?
Or will they manage to find complaint stock from somewhere?

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Given the number of WCRC issues that the ORR have had to deal with over the years I think that they have been very patient and given WCRC every chance to comply. It would have been no surprise if this exemption had been withdrawn within minutes of the court case concluding.

I hope that this doesn't mean the end of The Jacobite etc. The good people of Mallaig, nor anybody else who may lose income/job, shouldn't have to suffer because of bone headed stubbornness of WCRC refusing to obey the rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the number of WCRC issues that the ORR have had to deal with over the years I think that they have been very patient and given WCRC every chance to comply. It would have been no surprise if this exemption had been withdrawn within minutes of the court case concluding.

I hope that this doesn't mean the end of The Jacobite etc. The good people of Mallaig, nor anybody else who may lose income/job, shouldn't have to suffer because of bone headed stubbornness of WCRC refusing to obey the rules.

There's clearly demand for and profit in such a service. If WCRC collapses as a result of this, someone else will step in in some form.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are the coming tours going to end up cancelled?
Or will they manage to find complaint stock from somewhere?

It's certainly something I'll be watching closely, as I'm booked on a Railway Touring Company trip in early March, which traditionally uses WCRC Mark 1 stock. Given that I only travel on a couple of railtours per decade, it's just possible that my timing has been less than opportune this time around.

 

[AHCT]

Does it mean all T.O.C. with hinged doors or just W.C.R.C. then?

According to the court's judgment other heritage TOCs have taken steps to implement CDL.

 

[notverydeep]

According to the court's judgment other heritage TOCs have taken steps to implement CDL.

Indeed. Strictly speaking the ORR's revocation only refers to the vehicles listed in the 'schedule' to WCRC's exemption certificate dated 27th November 2023. A schedule is similar to an appendix, where a list or inventory might appear in a legal document. This list will contain only the specific vehicles that WCRC applied to be exempt - possibly not even their entire fleet. It has no impact at all on any other vehicles of any type belonging to WCRC or any other TOC or heritage railway, as no other vehicles are the subject of this specific exemption certificate (and therefore won't be listed in the schedule).

Any other operator with an exemption to run vehicles with hinged doors that do not have CDL will have their own exemption certificates, with schedules listing the specific vehicles exempted, which will presumably be backed up by their specific set of conditions and mitigations to the risks of operating such vehicles to the satisfaction of the ORR (I presume WCRC won't have any vehicles covered by a different exemption certificate). I don't know if there any beyond the NYMR Grosmont to Whitby operation...

 

[Mountain Man]

In the court case WCRC claimed; "The Jacobite contributes £19.3m a year to the Scottish economy on top of £4.72m in ticket revenue from 101,429 passenger journeys". You would assume most of that goes into the Fort William / Mallaig area.

"https://news.stv.tv/scotland/hogwarts-express-operator-loses-high-court-challenge-over-door-safety".

There's also the loss of Track Access payments to Network Rail to consider if the service isn't replaced. WCTC must contribute a large part of the total for the Mallaig branch compared to ScotRail light weight units, then again a less wear and tear on the track will occur so less maintenance/renewals will be required going forward.

That assumes nothing would replace it.

The Jacobite proves there is demand, so were it to stop, what is there stopping another operator running a service?

Does the WCRC have a USP that another steam operator doesn't on that route? I doubt it

 

[Dai Corner]

That assumes nothing would replace it.

The Jacobite proves there is demand, so were it to stop, what is there stopping another operator running a service?

Does the WCRC have a USP that another steam operator doesn't on that route? I doubt it

WCRC have the rights to the paths in the timetable.

I'm not sure what would happen if they stopped using them. Could they even keep paying NR and prevent another operator running a similar service?

 

[bleeder4]

WCRC have the rights to the paths in the timetable.

I'm not sure what would happen if they stopped using them. Could they even keep paying NR and prevent another operator running a similar service?

I'm not an expert on how paths work. But I do know that, back before Vintage Trains became their own TOC, they were using West Coast as their TOC. That meant that the steam-hauled Shakespeare Express trips they ran from Birmingham to Stratford on Summer Sundays were operated by West Coast. The paths were West Coast's.

Once Vintage Trains became their own TOC the Shakespeare Express paths in the system went to them instead. Presumably the reasoning was that as West Coast were no longer using them, they could be given to another TOC.

 

[Mountain Man]

WCRC have the rights to the paths in the timetable.

I'm not sure what would happen if they stopped using them. Could they even keep paying NR and prevent another operator running a similar service?

If it mattered enough locally they'd find a way.