WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

[ainsworth74]

ORR are deciding to treat WCRC differently to other operators.

Surely they're now treating them the same as other operators? The other operators have complied with the legal requirement (or have plans in place to do so). It's WCRC who appear to have taken a completely different approach which has now bitten them on the backside.

 

[sycamores]

WCRC have a monopoly on Mk.1 TSO's! A quick scan of the various Regulation 5 exemption list (https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...lling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions) shows how little stock is available...

What ToC is going to find sufficient stock for a long season in Fort Bill whilst maintaining their regular commitments?

If you're going to do the route in a Mk. 3 "coffin", then you might as well use the local DMU service!

 

[JerryHarbottle]

WCRC have the rights to the paths in the timetable.

I'm not sure what would happen if they stopped using them. Could they even keep paying NR and prevent another operator running a similar service?

I suppose if WCR have no CDL fitted stock for March; another operator could bid to use paths under the Spot Bid arrangement, bidding to Network Rail Milton Keynes train planning unit; as WCR are unable to operate the paths owing to lack of suitable stock.

 

[Meerkat]

If you're going to do the route in a Mk. 3 "coffin", then you might as well use the local DMU service!

Would that put off the Jacobite target market, or would they prefer the better coaches?

 

[Nym]

At least we’ll see no more deaths from passengers falling out of charter trains. The world is a lot safer.

...as a result of this exemption being rescinded.

It doesn't mean that there won't be any more deaths or injuries from falling out of trains. Just because CDL now needs to be fitted doesn't mean it will be working or used properly.

 

[Killingworth]

Would that put off the Jacobite target market, or would they prefer the better coaches?

It's the steam locos that draw the crowds to take pictures as they cross Glenfinnan Viaduct. That brings income for the NT of Scotland. Getting a photo from the platforms at Fort Wiliam, Glenfinnan or Mallaig is enough for most passengers

Most dont try to hang out of the windows but they do squeeze their cameras and phones out if they can, especially on the viaduct. A small minority may try to get their heads out but the majority may actually prefer a more modern train than some of the Mk 1s being used.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

WCRC's website is still taking bookings for the Jacobite. The site show the morning train sold out until June and the afternoon train as limited availability until late May. Given that, and that RTC are still selling their Cumbrian Mountain Express for January 27th, can we be absolutely certain that the ORR have withdrawn the exemption because WCRC have continued being so obstructive, rather than because they have been quietly been fitting CDL "behind the scenes" and the exemption is no longer required??

 

[Dave S 56F]

I've been told by one of the girls at railway touring Co they have a solution to run the 2024 railtours including the winter cumbrian mountain express on 27 Jan wether or not if they intend loaning some C.D.L. Stock I don't know or if west coast behind the scenes if very swiftly and quietly have fitted C.D.L. to their M.K.1 stock within a month I don't sincerely think they would have on my 2nd point.

 

[1Q18]

WCRC have the rights to the paths in the timetable.

I'm not sure what would happen if they stopped using them. Could they even keep paying NR and prevent another operator running a similar service?

Maybe for a short time, but not in perpetuity. Indeed, there wouldn't seem to be any sense in WCRC spending money to retain the paths or indeed lifting a finger to stop another operator jumping in if they didn't intend to resume the Jacobite service at some point.

Certainly operators have bid before for other operators paths that they have perceived to be underused; if I remember correctly, the Grand Central Euston-Blackpool operation attempted to claim a WTT path for the Network Rail New Measurement Train on the grounds that it was only used once every four weeks.

 

[Gwr12345]

I'm not entirely sure, what rolling stock isn't fitted with CDL, obviously some Mark 1s aren't, but what about later iterations off BR coaches, mark 2 etc?

 

[dgl]

One new thing I understand is that WCRC's new ban is not due to anything that has come up since the judicial review but that the ORR had already made it clear that if they lost their judicial review the derogation would be withdrawn.

 

[sycamores]

Would that put off the Jacobite target market, or would they prefer the better coaches?

I guess it depends on what experience you want? and your definition of 'better'? If I was going to a pres line (which essentially the Fort Bill to Mallaig is) and wanted sounds and smells of a working steam loco drifting in through an open toplight or drop light, then I suspect a Mk. 1 is the ideal coach. I'm not sure how you can better a Mk. 1 TSO in a heritage livery attached to an equally heritage loco.


If I'd rather smell the posh nosh on a plate in front of me on a long-distance railtour, then I suspect something more modern would suffice...

 

[renegademaster]

Does ORR publicize its procedures around getting approval for stock?
I doubt WCRC have quietly fit it without having some article on railadvent saying "West Coast apply for approval for new Mark 1 Vac braked CDL system"

====================

I think Jacobite would survive more modern stock. Their mark 1s are from right of the end of their BR usage and have interiors that look not unlike older mark 2s. The only thing that gives them away are the windows and most "normies" aren't going to care and Jacobite is more aimed at tourists and not enthusiasts.

Whether WCRC can get CDL pre fitted stock that's vac braked is a different question

 

[43096]

I'm not entirely sure, what rolling stock isn't fitted with CDL, obviously some Mark 1s aren't, but what about later iterations off BR coaches, mark 2 etc?

CDL was originally fitted to all Mark 3 and Mark 2F stock and the majority of Mark 2D and 2E as well. Essentially it was a mid-1990s programme for the InterCity fleets.

 

[43096]

I've been told by one of the girls at railway touring Co they have a solution to run the 2024 railtours including the winter cumbrian mountain express on 27 Jan wether or not if they intend loaning some C.D.L. Stock I don't know or if west coast behind the scenes if very swiftly and quietly have fitted C.D.L. to their M.K.1 stock within a month I don't sincerely think they would have on my 2nd point.

They do not necessarily have to have their stock fitted by then. What they need to do - and presumably haven't so far - is engage with the ORR and agree a fitment programme for their stock, as other operators/owners have done. If they do that, then they would likely receive a further exemption to cover the fitment programme - that would be consistent with what ORR have done with others.

 

[1Q18]

Does ORR publicize its procedures around getting approval for stock?
I doubt WCRC have quietly fit it without having some article on railadvent saying "West Coast apply for approval for new Mark 1 Vac braked CDL system"

====================

I think Jacobite would survive more modern stock. Their mark 1s are for right of the end of their BR usage and have interiors that look not unlike older mark 2s. The only thing that gives them away are the windows and most "normies" aren't going to care and Jacobite is more aimed at tourists and not enthusiasts.

Whether WCRC can get CDL pre fitted stock that's vac braked is a different question

Plenty of their Mk1s are dual-braked, as are the three Black Fives (44871, 45212, 45407) which are usually allocated to the Jacobite.

 

[renegademaster]

Plenty of their Mk1s are dual-braked, as are the three Black Fives (44871, 45212, 45407) which are usually allocated to the Jacobite.

I was more wondering if they're was many CDL fitted vaccum stock (even if newer ones) laying about.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

CDL was originally fitted to all Mark 3 and Mark 2F stock and the majority of Mark 2D and 2E as well. Essentially it was a mid-1990s programme for the InterCity fleets.

On that point, presumably the CDL fitment had to pass BR’s business case criteria (I’m assuming it used the then-standard max £500k per life saved?) meaning that the Intercity fitment made financial sense but the Provincial fleets of Mk1 and Mk2 stock did not? What about Network SouthEast? I’m guessing projected economic lifespan of the rolling stock was also taken into account; nobody in 1992-3 presumably expected Mk2A/B/C to be still in passenger use well into the 2000s?

 

[alastair]

WCRC's statement from Rail Advent site https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/0...llowing-orr-decision-to-revoke-exemption.html

WCRC's full statement reads

West Coast Railways has expressed its serious disappointment that rail regulator, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has revoked the exemption which enables it to operate its heritage rail services, including the world-famous Jacobite, on the UK main line.


With its 2024 season due to start in two weeks, the operator had asked the ORR to maintain an exemption that allowed it to operate services until 29 February 2024, while it works with the regulator to find a long-term solution. However, the regulator decided to revoke the exemption on 10 January 2024.

WCR has reaffirmed that it is keen to work with the ORR to identify solutions to enable its services to continue to operate, protecting jobs and vital income for businesses along its routes.

James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways said: “We are extremely disappointed by this decision. We remain committed to working with the ORR to agree how we can safeguard the future of our heritage services. We now ask the regulator to reconsider urgently in the interests of our passengers and business partners, and to allow our exemption to run until 29 February".


“We are already considering a range of options and had asked the ORR to allow the current exemption to run its course, to give us time to put forward detailed proposals.

“Our much-loved services, enjoyed by so many visitors from the UK and around the world, support a large number of businesses along our routes. The Jacobite alone has become an intrinsic part of Scottish tourism, boosting the economies of Mallaig and Fort William. It brings an estimated £20 million into the UK's tourism sector to which we contribute £50 million overall every year.

For everyone relying on these incredible heritage services this decision is a body blow.”

 

[Baxenden Bank]

WCRC's statement from Rail Advent site https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/0...llowing-orr-decision-to-revoke-exemption.html

WCRC's full statement reads

West Coast Railways has expressed its serious disappointment that rail regulator, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has revoked the exemption which enables it to operate its heritage rail services, including the world-famous Jacobite, on the UK main line.


With its 2024 season due to start in two weeks, the operator had asked the ORR to maintain an exemption that allowed it to operate services until 29 February 2024, while it works with the regulator to find a long-term solution. However, the regulator decided to revoke the exemption on 10 January 2024.

WCR has reaffirmed that it is keen to work with the ORR to identify solutions to enable its services to continue to operate, protecting jobs and vital income for businesses along its routes.

James Shuttleworth, Commercial Manager, West Coast Railways said: “We are extremely disappointed by this decision. We remain committed to working with the ORR to agree how we can safeguard the future of our heritage services. We now ask the regulator to reconsider urgently in the interests of our passengers and business partners, and to allow our exemption to run until 29 February".


“We are already considering a range of options and had asked the ORR to allow the current exemption to run its course, to give us time to put forward detailed proposals.

“Our much-loved services, enjoyed by so many visitors from the UK and around the world, support a large number of businesses along our routes. The Jacobite alone has become an intrinsic part of Scottish tourism, boosting the economies of Mallaig and Fort William. It brings an estimated £20 million into the UK's tourism sector to which we contribute £50 million overall every year.

For everyone relying on these incredible heritage services this decision is a body blow.”

Blather. More blather. Some more blather. It's everyone else's fault, look what damage those other people are causing, we are the reasonable ones.

A UK regulator actually regulating, whatever next.

 

[WAB]

Apparently, the ORR made it clear to WCR that they would only continue their exemption pending the judicial review and its results, and that revocation would follow immediately following a failure of WCR's claim.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Apparently, the ORR made it clear to WCR that they would only continue their exemption pending the judicial review and its results, and that revocation would follow immediately following a failure of WCR's claim.

The hearing ended on 22 November 2023. I guess there was an inkling then that things weren't going WCRC's way.
The judgement was handed down on 22 December 2023.

Starting on one of those dates, someone should have been burning the midnight oil to get an extended/revised exemption in place with all the reassurances / action plans that ORR required.

There are only so many times you can bend over backwards to help someone who doesn't want helping. Pushing something to the line with absolute belief in your own case comes with high risks. That line has been reached, bluff has been called. Getting a new derogation may prove rather more difficult than an extension of an existing one. Just like a new planning permission is based on current expectations whereas renewal of an existing one about to expire isn't. Never let an unimplemented planning permission expire, never let a derogation expire.

 

[DDB]

I'm guessing but if WCRC had shown the ORR had acted unlawfully and the exemption hadn't be granted WCRC may have been able to sue for lost earnings?

Unsurprisingly the courts have found not granting an exemption is both reasonable and lawful so the risk of ORR being sued has gone so they have gone ahead and withdrawn the exemption.

 

[craigybagel]

With its 2024 season due to start in two weeks, the operator had asked the ORR to maintain an exemption that allowed it to operate services until 29 February 2024, while it works with the regulator to find a long-term solution. However, the regulator decided to revoke the exemption on 10 January 2024.

They don't need time to find a long-term solution, there already is one. Comply with the rules followed by everyone else.

 

[Dave S 56F]

I've seen from another source mainline steam specials on Facebook and unofficial west coast railway company group that they do have a rake of Aircon M.K. 2 Coaches and would also consider using riviera M.K. 2 Coaching stock to continue their operations.

 

[renegademaster]

I've seen from another source mainline steam specials on Facebook and unofficial west coast railway company group that they do have a rake of Aircon M.K. 2 Coaches and would also consider using riviera M.K. 2 Coaching stock to continue their operations.

Is it vac brake? Can't imagine it's hard to keep the Diesel tours going but running the steam may be harder.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Is it vac brake? Can't imagine it's hard to keep the Diesel tours going but running the steam may be harder.


Edit: Just looked it up and turns out Clan line, a west coast owned loco , was fitted with air brakes in the 90s, my tour may not be cancelled (or dieseled)

35028 Clan Line belongs to the Merchant Navy Locomotive Preservation Society and works out of Stewarts Lane. Nothing to do with Carnforth.
Pat

 

[Nym]

You can use quite a few of WCRC's locomotives as brake converters for a vac braked loco.

They also possess quite a few vac braked steam locomotives.

 

[renegademaster]

35028 Clan Line belongs to the Merchant Navy Locomotive Preservation Society and works out of Stewarts Lane. Nothing to do with Carnforth.

Sorry
For some reason I remember seeing on the list of potential locos, will remove

 

[Brissle Girl]

On that point, presumably the CDL fitment had to pass BR’s business case criteria (I’m assuming it used the then-standard max £500k per life saved?) meaning that the Intercity fitment made financial sense but the Provincial fleets of Mk1 and Mk2 stock did not? What about Network SouthEast? I’m guessing projected economic lifespan of the rolling stock was also taken into account; nobody in 1992-3 presumably expected Mk2A/B/C to be still in passenger use well into the 2000s?

NSE Mark 1 stock was the subject of a mass replacement project because of concerns over crashworthiness following Clapham.