WCRC steam suspended again

[theironroad]

Smack on.
As ever, enthusiasts jump to the defence of WCR. without understanding the background.
Thry have had a chance to put their house in order. A chance that many who share the network do not think they should have been given. You don't get these antics from regular TOCs, as anyone so doing would be out of a job there and then.
The end of WCR does not have to mean the end of steam. Let the legitimate freight operators move into this territory, without being undercut by people from preserved railways, on as and when contracts.

If the orr did not think wcrc had got that act together in competence management since wooton, they would have suspended their full operzations, not just steam.

Because a driver f#### up doesn't mean the whole operation is incompetent, there are plenty of TOC drivers around with multiple incidents on their record still driving, so let's drop the holier than thou approach.

Let's be honest, like you say this is more about the politics of who gets to run trains on the network.

There are people out there (I'm notr saying anyone in particular) who wouldn't care if wcrc had a exemplary record and were the safest TOC in the UK, they would still want to see them banned becuass of their business model.

 

[Sebastian O]

If the orr did not think wcrc had got that act together in competence management since wooton, they would have suspended their full operzations, not just steam.

Because a driver f#### up doesn't mean the whole operation is incompetent, there are plenty of TOC drivers around with multiple incidents on their record still driving, so let's drop the holier than thou approach.

Let's be honest, like you say this is more about the politics of who gets to run trains on the network.

There are people out there (I'm notr saying anyone in particular) who wouldn't care if wcrc had a exemplary record and were the safest TOC in the UK, they would still want to see them banned becuass of their business model.

Driver screwing up is one thing.

Having a safety culture where you have multiple safety isolation incidents isn't just 'someone screwing up'.

Until someone dies will anything change unfortunately..

 

[ainsworth74]

Because a driver f#### up doesn't mean the whole operation is incompetent, there are plenty of TOC drivers around with multiple incidents on their record still driving, so let's drop the holier than thou approach.

All of the previous issues have boiled down to Network Rail and the ORR not having confidence in WCRC's ability to manage safety. If the issue was a rogue driver then we wouldn't be here. The issue is that the ORR seem to have little to no faith in WCRC being able to run their operations in a safe manner (and who can blame with two incidents relating to isolating safety systems and the shambles that led to WCRC steam being banned from Network Rail LNE region a year or two ago).

Which is somewhat different to TOCs and FOCs...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs15.htm#nov it looks like a hell of a lot of the remaining tours for 2015 involve WCRC, could that mean nearly no more rail tours for the rest of 2015?

When TPWS is disabled on a loco does it send any sort of signal/alarm/warning to the signal box via GSM-R?

Long-term could there be any affects on steam tours overall?

 

[TheEdge]

Are they utter morons? One would have thought this would have been utterly drilled out of anyone driving for WCRC after the last suspension. They need to be gone.
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When TPWS is disabled on a loco does it send any sort of signal/alarm/warning to the signal box via GSM-R?

Don't think so. But then a competent crew would have been in contact with the signaller over a TPWS isolation because that's what they should have been doing!

 

[ComUtoR]

When TPWS is disabled on a loco does it send any sort of signal/alarm/warning to the signal box via GSM-R?

Not that I'm aware of. It doesn't even happen with our EMU's. I get where your going and we do have telemetry data but that is reliant on someone sitting there monitoring each unit or having a system where a notification is sent.

If we get a brake application then I believe it sends a notification but still relies on someone reading it. I doubt that its possible with steam.

 

[theironroad]

All of the previous issues have boiled down to Network Rail and the ORR not having confidence in WCRC's ability to manage safety. If the issue was a rogue driver then we wouldn't be here. The issue is that the ORR seem to have little to no faith in WCRC being able to run their operations in a safe manner (and who can blame with two incidents relating to isolating safety systems and the shambles that led to WCRC steam being banned from Network Rail LNE region a year or two ago).

Which is somewhat different to TOCs and FOCs...

Orr must be happier with the improvements that wcrc made after their licence was restored post wooton. This current suspension does NOT apply to wcrc's diesel operations, so clearly while wcrc management haven't got the safety culture through to everyone , it is clearly not as cataclysmic as last time.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hardly fills one with confidence though...

 

[ComUtoR]

Who drives their steams ? Is it Drivers from their normal operations or do they bring in outsiders ?

 

[Dave1987]

Orr must be happier with the improvements that wcrc made after their licence was restored post wooton. This current suspension does NOT apply to wcrc's diesel operations, so clearly while wcrc management haven't got the safety culture through to everyone , it is clearly not as cataclysmic as last time.

I'm honestly struggling to understand what you mean by that statement? WCRC crews have been caught either not knowing their rules (so shouldn't be allowed out on the mainline) or are blatantly violating the rule book. Either way it's the WCRC managements job to ensure their crews are competent which they clearly aren't doing. After the who Wootten Bassett SPAD saga I would have expected some serious arse kicking to have been done so all WCRC know that rule book violations are not acceptable and any crews not up to date with their rules taken off the road. This clearly hasn't happened.

 

[D1009]

I have certainly no intention of trying to defend WCR, however there do seem to be a lot of self appointed hanging judges here, without perhaps having all the facts of the case at their disposal.

I tend to agree. There is a lot we don't know, including the reason for the isolation of the TPWS, and which member of staff on board the locomotive was responsible.

 

[snowball]

If there was a good reason for it I imagine the ORR wouldn't have re-suspended WCR.

 

[E&W Lucas]

There seems to be liitle info about this incident available on here, just it was tpws isolation. No mention of whether it was a full isolation or temporary one.

The wootoon Bassett spad didn't involve tpws initially, it was the overriding of the aws..to cancel the brake application.

While tpws and was are interconnected, tpws can be disabled without fully isolation of aws, so the details of these incidents sound different.

Not correct. The operation of the AWS isolation valve will prevent the still electrically live TPWS applying the brakes. that is what happened at Wooton Basset. One isolates both, for all practical purposes.
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I tend to agree. There is a lot we don't know, including the reason for the isolation of the TPWS, and which member of staff on board the locomotive was responsible.

The only person who can authorise you to move with the TPWS isolated is the signaller. If he hadn't given this permission, then that is all the facts that we need to know.

For me, the consequences would be immediate loss of livelihood, zero chance of re - employment and probable prosecution.
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Who drives their steams ? Is it Drivers from their normal operations or do they bring in outsiders ?

A small number of their normal drivers. Some qualified by themselves, who've never driven elsewhere. Firemen off preserved lines and support crews.

 

[D1009]

I can understand the reaction from the professional TOC drivers on here who have to work within certain limits with regard to safety procedures and in doing so contribute to making our railway system the safest in Europe if not the world. If the incident turns out to be similar to the Wootton Bassett one I am sure the ban would not have been temporary. Even the Wootton Bassett incident pales into insignificance if you compare the level of competence displayed by the staff on the TGV test train disaster in France. I just think we should wait for some more facts before passing judgment.

 

[E&W Lucas]

The point with TPWs, is that as drivers, we have absolutely zero discretion.
It has to be working, or the loco does not enter service.
You are not allowed to isolate it, without permission from the box.
If it activates, you aren't allowed to move without permission from the box.
A loco was moving about with TPWS isolated, without dispensation. Hanging offence.

 

[gswindale]

So, reading the Railway Herald article, it is some steam that has been prohibited and also that they will still be allowed to run Mayflower to Minehead on Thursday

Mayflower to operate to Minehead

Since the story broke, it is understood that WCR has been actively working with the Office of Rail and Road to resolve the issues, and it is now understood that the ORR has passed LNER 'B1' No. 61306 Mayflower for operation on the main line, meaning that the trip on 26th November to Minehead should proceed as planned, steam-hauled. Railway Herald also understoods that WCR are seeking agreement with the ORR for a second locomotive to be passed as well.

The ORR says that any modifications to the TPWS isolation equipment would need to be rolled-out to the entire steam fleet that is operated by WCR before the prohibition notice could be lifted.

At present, the status of other tours over the coming days is unknown. At present, they would have to use Mayflower, be diesel-hauled or rescheduled.

This to me suggests that those in charge are aware of what needs to be done to operate a safer railway and that steps were already in place.

 

[theironroad]

I'm honestly struggling to understand what you mean by that statement? WCRC crews have been caught either not knowing their rules (so shouldn't be allowed out on the mainline) or are blatantly violating the rule book. Either way it's the WCRC managements job to ensure their crews are competent which they clearly aren't doing. After the who Wootten Bassett SPAD saga I would have expected some serious arse kicking to have been done so all WCRC know that rule book violations are not acceptable and any crews not up to date with their rules taken off the road. This clearly hasn't happened.

...because if orr believed that nothing had changed since pre wooton and that the wcrc safety culture had not improved, then they would have removed their full operating licence, not just withdrawn their steam operations until modifications were made.
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Not correct. The operation of the AWS isolation valve will prevent the still electrically live TPWS applying the brakes. that is what happened at Wooton Basset. One isolates both, for all practical purposes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The only person who can authorise you to move with the TPWS isolated is the signaller. If he hadn't given this permission, then that is all the facts that we need to know.

For me, the consequences would be immediate loss of livelihood, zero chance of re - employment and probable prosecution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

O

A small number of their normal drivers. Some qualified by themselves, who've never driven elsewhere. Firemen off preserved lines and support crews.

On the emus I'm familiar with a temporary isolation of tpws, such as in tbw does not affect aws andaws is still operational. A FULL isolation of tpws knocks out bothh tpws and aws.., so aws..can still operate with tpws functioning on the units I'm familiar with.

As nobody on this thread seems to know EXACTLY what happend in this Doncaster incident, we should all wait for the raib report to come out if there is to be one.
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Agree with this; yes it sounds bad and certainly needs to be investigated (as it is), however let's wait for the facts before releasing the pack of lions on WCRC.

*If* it turns out there has been deliberate violation of rules or procedures than all involved deserve everything that might come, but until that happens then it's innocent until proven guilty -- just like the investigation into any operating incident it's important to remain open-minded, if you jump down the road of one conclusion then something else might be missed.

Haha, too late for that....some of my colleagues see the acronym WCRC and demand close it down before the next sentence is read....

 

[E&W Lucas]

...On the emus I'm familiar with a temporary isolation of tpws, such as in tbw does not affect aws andaws is still operational. A FULL isolation of tpws knocks out bothh tpws and aws.., so aws..can still operate with tpws functioning on the units I'm familiar with.

As nobody on this thread seems to know EXACTLY what happend in this Doncaster incident, we should all wait for the raib report to come out if there is to be one.

Totally different set up with steam (which I do "sign"). What was operated on Tangmere was a mechanical valve. This was the original AWS isolating valve, to allow the loco to operate on non - AWS routes. Its operation also prevents the TPWS destroying the train pipe. Please do not try and compare with a modern unit. You can operate that valve, after an electrical attempt to apply the brake has been made, and it will overcome it.

As said above - the loco was running about with the TPWS non - operational. That's all we need to know.

 

[theblackwatch]

I don't think there'll be an RAIB report - however, I'm sure more will become known over the next few days/weeks. I think it's also fair to point out that there are plenty of good folk who work for WCRC (they aren't all bad apples), and I'm sure many of them will be upset and probably annoyed at what it appears somebody has done on October 2 and its consequences.

As for the suggestion that this will result in the end of main line steam, one of Rileys Black 5s has also been authorised to work, so hopefully there won't be too much disruption to the charter train business.

 

[colchesterken]

I may be wrong but I thought steam on the main line had to have a traction inspector on board to help look out observe the road
When I have seen steam on the main line there are always lots of people on the footplate

 

[RichmondCommu]

I apologize in advance for the stupid but genuine question; how did the ORR know that it had been turned off?

 

[D1009]

I apologize in advance for the stupid but genuine question; how did the ORR know that it had been turned off?

That is one of the many things we don't know about the incident.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I apologize in advance for the stupid but genuine question; how did the ORR know that it had been turned off?

They probably found a broken seal on it - these things have tags that are broken upon use, rather like those used to show nobody has lifted any of the seats on the Underground but a bit more obvious.

Chances are their attention was drawn to the train in question by something else in the first place, then they found the broken seal. But let's wait until we are told formally what drew their attention originally before suggesting what it might have been.

 

[Taunton]

You don't get these antics from regular TOCs

How did Southall happen then? That went right up through the management structure.

 

[GB]

How did Southall happen then? That went right up through the management structure.

From memory, ATP was switched off as it was faulty and not mandatory at the time to have it on. AWS was disabled and at the time there was no requirement for the train to be double manned or run at a reduced speed.

All points which have since been addressed via rule changes which is why these WCR incidents have been taken so seriously.

 

[dk1]

If there was a good reason for it I imagine the ORR wouldn't have re-suspended WCR.

My sentiments exactly. Drivers at any TOC or FOC find this unbelievable that this behaviour continues on the National network. It cannot & should not be tolerated.

 

[E&W Lucas]

How did Southall happen then? That went right up through the management structure.

TPWS was introduced in the aftermath of Southall. There was also a complete culture change re trains running about with defective equipment on them.

 

[Taunton]

From memory, ATP was switched off as it was faulty and not mandatory at the time to have it on. AWS was disabled.

Pretty much so, although it didn't quite fit with :

You don't get these antics from regular TOCs

As I understood it, requirement for double manning of 125mph services had been ended, and the TOC stopped it to save costs; the train and track were fitted with ATP but the TOC would not train on or maintain the equipment, to save costs; then the AWS became defective but the crew were just expected to continue and the train was not reversed on Landore triangle to put the defective cab at the rear, to save costs on an extra movement being billed by Railtrack.

What was that you don't get from regular TOCs?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I apologize in advance for the stupid but genuine question; how did the ORR know that it had been turned off?

It'll be down to the underlying "incident", whatever it was. I suspect that it will be something that TPWS should have intervened to prevent. Either way, NR will no doubt have requested the OTMR data, and it'll be obvious from that.

 

[OpsWeb]

Any operating incident (regardless of cause) is input into a national database set up by the RSSB - including the full specifics and what any internal investigation has found.

Regulators can view the database and make there own enquires from there (i.e. request OTMR data).

I suspect they are watching WCRC like a hawk and will probably have enhanced monitoring of there internal processes.