WCRC steam suspended again

[DarloRich]

Word is WCRC have been suspended again following issues in a tour near Doncaster on 2nd Oct:

EDIT: Details via RAIL facebook ( v 21st Century!) https://www.facebook.com/Railmagazine/posts/935212579904898:

Just in from the Office of Rail and Road.

“The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has temporarily prohibited West Coast Railway Company Ltd from operating steam trains on the mainline rail network, to protect the safety of its staff, volunteers, passengers and members of the public.

“The enforcement action follows an initial investigation into an incident near Doncaster on 2 October 2015, which found staff on-board locomotive 45231 had turned-off its Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) isolation equipment, designed to apply an emergency brake if the driver makes an error.

“ORR will not allow the company to run trains where there are not effective controls in place for key safety systems. The regulator is working with the company to make the required improvements before services resume.”

 

[ainsworth74]

Wait, are you telling me that there is chance that someone has done exactly the same thing that they did earlier in the year that got them a suspension and is still being investigated? Really? Are you kidding me? No-one can surely have been stupid enough to isolate the TPWS, again, on a WCRC service without express permission and following the rules down to the punctuation in the rule book?

 

[Wolfie]

Wait, are you telling me that there is chance that someone has done exactly the same thing that they did earlier in the year that got them a suspension and is still being investigated? Really? Are you kidding me? No-one can surely have been stupid enough to isolate the TPWS, again, on a WCRC service without express permission and following the rules down to the punctuation in the rule book?

IF, and I repeat IF, there is any truth in this then WCRC should be permanently excluded from operating on the rail network. Also the individuals operating this train should be prosecuted.

Frankly jail time should be a realistic option if at all possible.....

 

[ComUtoR]

What was the incident that triggered the investigation ?

 

[507 001]

You couldn't make it up!

 

[theblackwatch]

I have amended the subject of this thread as the ban only applies to steam - the TOC is still able to operate diesel-hauled trains.

There is no 'if' in the ORR statement at all. It would seem the TPWS isolation incident occurred on this light engine move from Carnforth to Doncaster - http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t15/t1002p.htm

 

[Matt Taylor]

Doncaster on October 2nd, involving 45231 and another isolated TPWS.:cry:

http://railwayherald.com/uknews/orr-issues-prohibition-notice-on-wcr

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has temporarily prohibited West Coast Railway Company Ltd from operating some steam locomotives on the main line rail network.

The enforcement action, which the ORR says is to protect the safety of its staff, volunteers, passengers and members of the public, follows an initial investigation into an incident near Doncaster on 2nd October 2015, which found staff on-board LMS 'Black 5' No. 45231 had turned-off its Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) isolation equipment, designed to apply an emergency brake if the driver makes an error.

An ORR spokesman said: “ORR will not allow the company to run trains where there are not effective controls in place for key safety systems. The regulator is working with the company to make the required improvements before services resume.”...

 

[RPM]

That is quite unbelievable. Surely it is curtains for West Coast now?

 

[NSEFAN]

If someone out there is playing trains then they need to ruddy well stop it. This isn't the 1950s anymore. This isn't the isle of ruddy sodor. People will be killed if safety systems are disabled so.

However, I think we should be positive about this. If WCRC can show that it's making the TPWS harder to tamper with and will be dealing with rogue individuals who mess with it, we should be able to look forward to continued mainline steam operation.

WCRC is understood to be working with the ORR to resolve the issues, and it is believed that two steam locomotives have had their TPWS equipment modified in such a way as to prevent crews being able to interfere with its operation. Once the work has been undertaken to the satisfaction of ORR inspectors, then it is likely that the locomotives will be allowed to return to the main line. Railway Herald has been advised that before the prohibition notice can be fully lifted, such modifications would need to be undertaken across all WCR-operated steam locomotives, although it is unlikely that steam charters will remain suspended for that long.

 

[WatcherZero]

They seem to have an agreement with ORR that suspension will be lifted when the equipment on Steam trains has been made tamper proof, which allegedly they were already supposed to have done.

 

[matt_world2004]

What would be the motive of turning off the tpws

 

[TDK]

However, I think we should be positive about this. If WCRC can show that it's making the TPWS harder to tamper with and will be dealing with rogue individuals who mess with it, we should be able to look forward to continued mainline steam operation.

I believe they have already had that option but once again obviously didn't adhere or action their previous failures. If they cannot operate to the guidelines they should be permanently removed from the option of running steam on the main line.

 

[DarloRich]

I have amended the subject of this thread as the ban only applies to steam - the TOC is still able to operate diesel-hauled trains.

There is no 'if' in the ORR statement at all. It would seem the TPWS isolation incident occurred on this light engine move from Carnforth to Doncaster - http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t15/t1002p.htm

My thanks - i was on my mobile and unable to copy and paste form the facebook page

 

[Dave1987]

Seriously get these clowns off the mainline now. If the whole SPAD investigation and the previous ban a wasn't big enough clue to the management and crews of WCRC that it is not acceptable to just isolate the TPWS when they feel like it then they should not be on the mainline end of. Needs to be drilled into these people that they are not playing trains on the mainline, and if a complete ban is the only way then it should be so.

 

[ComUtoR]

What would be the motive of turning off the tpws

Genuine ? If there is a fault.

Dishonest ? Prevent being stopped by TPWS. Overspeeds/Trainstops. Save time, Money, circumvent being "caught" for having an incident.

There had to have been a reason why they decided to isolate it. My concern is that it had an incident.

My other concern is the statement made by the ORR and from what information has been linked. I can isolate the TPWS in seconds and there is nothing to prevent me from doing so. What "measures" can WCRC put in place to prevent this from happening ?

 

[Dave1987]

What would be the motive of turning off the tpws

Prevent tripping over speed loops approaching PSR's............

 

[DasLunatic]

Could TPWS be hard-wired into the train, and altered so it could only be turned off with the Signaller's permission?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could TPWS be hard-wired into the train, and altered so it could only be turned off with the Signaller's permission?

If they have drivers who are that unprofessional, they want sacking. Who knows what else they will do?

Actually, what was that charge that is seemingly wrongly being brought against a Merseyrail guard? Endangering life on the railway? Sounds like it might fit better here.

 

[carriageline]

Genuine ? If there is a fault.



Dishonest ? Prevent being stopped by TPWS. Overspeeds/Trainstops. Save time, Money, circumvent being "caught" for having an incident.



There had to have been a reason why they decided to isolate it. My concern is that it had an incident.



My other concern is the statement made by the ORR and from what information has been linked. I can isolate the TPWS in seconds and there is nothing to prevent me from doing so. What "measures" can WCRC put in place to prevent this from happening ?

Mine and your jobs are filled with things that if we so wanted, could cause problems. We are trusted not to do that though, if people are seen to be abusing that trust, sack em, lock em up for a long time. It's inexcusable, and it threatens to brings a terrible name to the thousands of professional drivers and fellow railway workers.

Once again, this shows truly what responsible jobs we are all in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could TPWS be hard-wired into the train, and altered so it could only be turned off with the Signaller's permission?

Essentially, that's what we have now on DMU/EMUs. Although there is no way that we can give an electric permission to isolate the TPWS, without spending a lot of money. Beside that, it's a tiny risk which can be managed by managing people properly, and sack people who want to flout the rules.

 

[scotraildriver]

Genuine ? If there is a fault.

Dishonest ? Prevent being stopped by TPWS. Overspeeds/Trainstops. Save time, Money, circumvent being "caught" for having an incident.

There had to have been a reason why they decided to isolate it. My concern is that it had an incident.

My other concern is the statement made by the ORR and from what information has been linked. I can isolate the TPWS in seconds and there is nothing to prevent me from doing so. What "measures" can WCRC put in place to prevent this from happening ?

If there was a fault and it was isolated with permission the ORR would not be investigating. It happens from time to time, a fault occurs, the driver reports to the signaller, the train runs at reduced speed until it can be removed from service. Comptent person etc etc. If it has been isolated without authorisation and the train continued at line speed it is deeply deeply concerning, more for everyone else who operated on the railway.

 

[96tommy]

After the Wooton Bassett incident you would have thought the company sent out a loud and clear message to all its staff that any future incident should be avoided. The staff of this train were not only endangering their lives, but others around them and I hope the staff of this particular working never drive on the railways again. Something really needs to happen at WCRC

 

[theironroad]

There seems to be liitle info about this incident available on here, just it was tpws isolation. No mention of whether it was a full isolation or temporary one.

The wootoon Bassett spad didn't involve tpws initially, it was the overriding of the aws..to cancel the brake application.

While tpws and was are interconnected, tpws can be disabled without fully isolation of aws, so the details of these incidents sound different.

Clearly there must have been some issue that the orr weren't happy with to issue the limited suspension.

Most trains have breakable seals on tpws toggle switches and f isolations are recorded on the otmr black box.

So, once again before everyone runs into headless chicken mode demanding wcrc and others are shut down, let's pause and wait for the details not overdo the hyperbole.

....and to those who talk about imminent danger etc without tpws, let's not forget it wasn't even in use anywhere in the UK until circa 2001

 

[Dave1987]

There seems to be liitle info about this incident available on here, just it was tpws isolation. No mention of whether it was a full isolation or temporary one.

The wootoon Bassett spad didn't involve tpws initially, it was the overriding of the aws..to cancel the brake application.

While tpws and was are interconnected, tpws can be disabled without fully isolation of aws, so the details of these incidents sound different.

Clearly there must have been some issue that the orr weren't happy with to issue the limited suspension.

Most trains have breakable seals on tpws toggle switches and f isolations are recorded on the otmr black box.

So, once again before everyone runs into headless chicken mode demanding wcrc and others are shut down, let's pause and wait for the details not overdo the hyperbole.

....and to those who talk about imminent danger etc without tpws, let's not forget it wasn't even in use anywhere in the UK until circa 2001

Sorry but I don't accept that. If this train was going around with its TPWS isolated legitimately then the signaller would know about it. You DO NOT just isolate on a whim. And this is not the first time either. The RAIB said it was investigating to see if it was a common occurrence for WCRC crews to isolate the TPWS, and clearly Wootten Bassett was not a one off by a rogue crew. They clearly either do not know their rules for the mainline or are quite happy to violate them. Either is a perfectly good reason to get them off the mainline permanently.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry but I don't accept that. If this train was going around with its TPWS isolated legitimately then the signaller would know about it.

That's my feeling. If this had been done properly then the ORR would surely not have reason to issue another suspension but seeing as they have that surely only means that procedure has not been followed.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Sorry but I don't accept that. If this train was going around with its TPWS isolated legitimately then the signaller would know about it. You DO NOT just isolate on a whim. And this is not the first time either. The RAIB said it was investigating to see if it was a common occurrence for WCRC crews to isolate the TPWS, and clearly Wootten Bassett was not a one off by a rogue crew. They clearly either do not know their rules for the mainline or are quite happy to violate them. Either is a perfectly good reason to get them off the mainline permanently.

Smack on.
As ever, enthusiasts jump to the defence of WCR. without understanding the background.
Thry have had a chance to put their house in order. A chance that many who share the network do not think they should have been given. You don't get these antics from regular TOCs, as anyone so doing would be out of a job there and then.
The end of WCR does not have to mean the end of steam. Let the legitimate freight operators move into this territory, without being undercut by people from preserved railways, on as and when contracts.

 

[ComUtoR]

There seems to be liitle info about this incident available on here, just it was tpws isolation. No mention of whether it was a full isolation or temporary one.

It was not 'just' a TPWS isolation.

There was an incident. That was investigated. It was found on investigation that the TPWS had been isolated.

There is a lot of the story missing. Neither does it say if the TPWS was isolated before or after the incident. Casually running about on the line with TPWS isolated would be a very serious breach. Reset and Go. Isolating to circumvent grids. Deliberate isolation to prevent the train from coming to a stand. etc. They are all very different.

 

[Minilad]

Surely the crew of this train must have been aware of the previous incidents. Either, hopefully, though official channels or just the railway grapevine. What on earth possessed them to isolate the TPWS knowing the storm it would brew up. The conclusion must be they did it thinking they wouldn't get caught. Or did it thinking it was OK. Either way they should not be driving on the main line again

 

[theironroad]

Sorry but I don't accept that. If this train was going around with its TPWS isolated legitimately then the signaller would know about it. You DO NOT just isolate on a whim. And this is not the first time either. The RAIB said it was investigating to see if it was a common occurrence for WCRC crews to isolate the TPWS, and clearly Wootten Bassett was not a one off by a rogue crew. They clearly either do not know their rules for the mainline or are quite happy to violate them. Either is a perfectly good reason to get them off the mainline permanently.

I'm not defending the crew and I've not said either way whether it was authorised, as I presume it wasn't if the orr have issued the suspension.

Yes,it seems to be a crew incident but wooton basset was aws, not tpws.

 

[47802]

Smack on.
As ever, enthusiasts jump to the defence of WCR. without understanding the background.
Thry have had a chance to put their house in order. A chance that many who share the network do not think they should have been given. You don't get these antics from regular TOCs, as anyone so doing would be out of a job there and then.
The end of WCR does not have to mean the end of steam. Let the legitimate freight operators move into this territory, without being undercut by people from preserved railways, on as and when contracts.

I have certainly no intention of trying to defend WCR, however there do seem to be a lot of self appointed hanging judges here, without perhaps having all the facts of the case at their disposal.

 

[ainsworth74]

As ever, enthusiasts jump to the defence of WCR. without understanding the background.

I'm struggling to find anyone on this thread whose 'jumped' to their defence. Most seem to want to throw the book, repeatedly, at them!