Weak Ticket Barriers - Midland Mainline / East Midland Trains

[dhutch]

Has anyone else noticed the design of the ticket barriers installed a stations such as Loughborough.

As can be seen in this photo despite appearing to be a large sheet barrier the 'paddles' as called by station staff are actually only attached by tabs off the main sheet.
- One side has two tabs around 4inchs in lenght, however the other has only a single 4inch tab and a very small additional tab at the very bottom of the the paddle.
- Futher more as can also be seen in the second tab, as apposed to being made out of a high impact polycarbonate or another suitably tough polymer that paddles are infact made of out of high glass content laminated glass.

[Click the above to enlarge to full size]



I havnt used the trains since the barriers where installed (2007?) as much as i did in my first year (2005) however although ive seen then coned/taped off due to being out of order ive never noticed missing or broken paddles before thursday when i photographed the above.

Talked to the station manager after the event apparently its quite common and infact it has in the past even been know for the wind to damage the barriers although typically this is the side paddles rather than the paddles themselves it seems.

-Just wondered how well known this is.
-Had anyone known or witness them to be broken before.
-Are there other stations with barriers such as these above.
-Does anyone know the cost of replacement per paddle.

When unstaffed the barriers are 'put away' for the night under there canopy, perhaps if nothing else, this is due to there fragile nature?

Certainly compared to the similar looking new CTS barriers that are in use along side the conventional CTS barriers on the tube the design and construction of these barriers seams woefully inadequate.
This includes the barriers installed at St Pancras by EastMidlands trains, prehaps there aware of the problem and no longer using the same supplier as the former operator Midland Mainline.

Daniel

 

[Lampshade]

The glass ones aren't strong at all, I think it was around the time of the Man United/Rangers trouble last year, I saw someone get off a TPE at Oxford Road and simply kick the barriers open and walk out unchallenged, they opened like they were made out of paper hock:

When unstaffed the barriers are 'put away' for the night under there canopy, perhaps if nothing else, this is due to there fragile nature?

Nope, they need to be staffed at all times.

 

[142094]

Probably some safety mechanism, if there was an emergency and the gates for some reason didn't open, when there would be a crush of people they would break so people could get through. At many places you'll also notice where the glass barriers are (not ticket barriers but jus a small section of glass fencing), these can be easily hopped over.

 

[Mojo]

In the railway group standards there are guidelines for the maximum force for the "push through" mechanism for ATGs, they should just push aside and certaintly shouldn't smash like that!

There are many safety considerations that have to be put in place to comply with the standard, and the guidance notes provided are actually quite detailed. I have to wonder though, who "enforces" these as I have seen quite a few installations that, in my opinion, do not comply with the standards and would be quite interested to see the accreditation process.

 

[transportphoto]

At many places you'll also notice where the glass barriers are (not ticket barriers but jus a small section of glass fencing), these can be easily hopped over..

Do you mean like the ones shown here (click) next to the barriers at Norwich?

 

[dk1]

Barriers recently installed at Norwich are like this too. They seem to lightweight & seem to stay open long enough for at least 3 people to pass through!! I just thought these where the current type but no, those installed at Ipswich a couple of months later are of the good old sturdy LUL spec that seem to do the job properly by closing violently on the heads of all following children.

 

[SWT Driver]

It's about time that these were replaced with a proper turnstile system, that way it can only accept a single person at a time, anyone with some luggage, push-chair, wheelchair or bike should go through a dedicated side channel.

 

[Mojo]

However aren't turnstiles easy to sneak through? Certaintly saw quite a lot of it in New York and Boston.

Unless you mean like ones with multiple paddles swinging around in an X shape, however that could cause problems for people with bags or fat people

 

[142094]

Do you mean like the ones shown here (click) next to the barriers at Norwich?

Those are a bit taller, but the ones at Newcastle you could easily just step over.

Unless you mean like ones with multiple paddles swinging around in an X shape, however that could cause problems for people with bags or fat people

Think these are called Iron Maidens or something like that. Plenty of pictures on the internet of people trying to go the opposite way to get out of the station without paying - and of course getting wedged half way through.

 

[Ivo]

You say about turnstiles and barriers and what have you, but you'll always get the twerp who thinks that he knows best and will casually jump them (especially those outside toilets...!). Do we need to install taller barriers, or something? Or would that make the whole thing seem like an airport terminal...

 

[dhutch]

The glass ones aren't strong at all, I think it was around the time of the Man United/Rangers trouble last year, I saw someone get off a TPE at Oxford Road and simply kick the barriers open and walk out unchallenged, they opened like they were made out of paper hock:

Yes, well i can certainly vouch for the weakness on a personal leval.
- I didnt mention it in the first post as i wanted your first thoughts beforehand, but the reason im asking about this is becuase it was me that broke the above barrier. I didnt go at it other that with slight degree or determination and it just folded off.

In the railway group standards there are guidelines for the maximum force for the "push through" mechanism for ATGs, they should just push aside and certaintly shouldn't smash like that!

Yes, ive been reading around this.
- Clearly it important should people need to leave in an emergancy sitaution (ie, fire, etc) they can do.
- The CTS systems as was as ive seen, if pushed hard enough, open and emit an audiable alarm to alert the staff which sounds good to me.
- Maybe these barriers where designed to brake like this to conform to the 'push through' specs but if thats the case i would consider it a very poor solution as clearly each time there pushed, by accedent, emergancy, or otherwise, its takes a fair but of time time and cash to get it back to an operational state!

Daniel

 

[Mojo]

I've had to push through that design of ticket barrier before and the glass in them did not break, so I think it's more likely that that was actual vandalism.

 

[dhutch]

I've had to push through that design of ticket barrier before and the glass in them did not break, so I think it's more likely that that was actual vandalism.

I guess our posts crossed, however as i say i can confirm that this was not an act of vandalisum as it was me that broke the one photographed. I gave it what i felt it would take to push through, based on my experinces on the tube and it broke as seen, i had a softbag with some clothes in i put infront of me, but neather than bag or myself are in any way heavy (im just over 6ft and 12stone). However its very interesting that you have been able to push through them without the breaking which removes the possabilty that the design is such that they cannot be pushed though without breaking. Ie, are designed to break.

Having been unable to get the automatic ticket machine to vend my ticket (wouldn’t take ref number having tried twice) and having been told at the desk I could only collect it at the machine (they also confirmed I had the ref. no. down correctly) I then had no more success with the barrier staff who gave a 'computer says no' comment to the tune of 'no ticket no train' so as the train had been in the platform about a minute by this time having wasted 10minutes not getting my ticket I decided to push through the barrier to get on the train. Even if it then meant buying a full price single to London whatever that costs compared to my advance student ticket which was £12 each way.

However, having got through the barrier (seamed to give way quite easily but without appearing to break) I ran over the bridge to plt2 to get on the train (staff called after me, but thought nothing of it as let’s face it, they would) but I was then (not fully surprisingly) denied access. At which point the gate staff had run after me and told me I had broken the barrier and they had called the BTP!!
As the train had left anyway I went back to look at the barrier and it was indeed as above. And I ended up spending 3.5hours going to Leicester with the BTP and giving a statement for alleged criminal damage. Fingerprints, DNA swabs and the works.
They then escorted me to the advanced ticket machine a Leicester, where again the ref number failed to work, and they took me to the desk and had the ticket man give me a permit to travel to get me to London.

 

[transportphoto]

Were you later called to court etc...???

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well that is vandalism Dhutch if you did it with no actual reason to do it...

 

[route:oxford]

These gates can shatter surprisingly easily.

Can't say too much here as I signed an NDA, but was compensated* when one of these gates slammed shut when I was half way through one. I twisted/pulled myself and light luggage through resulting in one of the gates shattering tearing through my (nearly new) goretex jacket, suit-jacket, shirt and scratched my skin enough to bleed.

There was the initial strop by the station staff and BTP about the "evasion" and "vandalism" then sudden realisation from them that I wasn't playing silly buggers, had an anytime 1st ticket, it was a genuine accident, and I was injured.

*It wasn't any no-win no-fee nonsense either. Just reasonable.

 

[dhutch]

Well that is vandalism Dhutch if you did it with no actual reason to do it...

Well, no, because (from the oxford dictionary) vandalism (vandlˌizəm) is the action involving deliberate destruction of or damage to public or private property.

I did not deliberately damage the barrier.
- I intended to pass through it against its well, but not to do it any damage.
- Having paid for a ticket, entered the platform and attempted to board my train.

Clearly i did not result to entering the platform by force lightly but having spent ten minutes failing to collect my ticket due to the failure of the stations machines to operate and failure of the staff to resolve the problem it seemed the best option was to enter the platform without my ticket and board the train. I was meeting a number of people for a meeting set up well in advance and was not about to miss the train for a technicality.

Clearly hind sight it a powerful thing and if i had know the barrier was likely to break i would have acted differently but given the situation i dont think i would have been the only one to try and board the train they had booked and paid to travel on.

In the end i missed the meeting, and wasnt able to see a long standing family friend whom i have not seen for several years, and ended up in a BTP office for 3.5 hours.

Were you later called to court etc...???

The incident only took place on thursday evening and as i was away in London all weekend and a full day of lectures today ive yet to make any further enquirys.

On the way there the officers where debating between themselves weather to give me a warning or to go through the full report procedure but apparently there sergeant is very exacting and she likes everything done in full for everything.


Daniel

 

[Helvellyn]

Clearly i did not result to entering the platform by force lightly but having spent ten minutes failing to collect my ticket due to the failure of the stations machines to operate and failure of the staff to resolve the problem it seemed the best option was to enter the platform without my ticket and board the train. I was meeting a number of people for a meeting set up well in advance and was not about to miss the train for a technicality.

What technicality is that? Boarding a train without a valid ticket? You were lucky you haven't been reported under the Railway Bylaws as it is actually an offence to not use ticket barriers in the correct way where they are installed.

I appreciate you wanted to be on that train, and you believed the staff had not done enough to help you, but that still doesn't give you the right to try and force entry onto a station through ticket barriers. Lucky you weren't injured either.

 

[metrocammel]

- Having paid for a ticket, entered the platform and attempted to board my train.

But you have admitted forcing the barrier open, without possesing a valid ticket. I, and I would imagine any self-respecting person would consider that wrong. A much more sensible approach would have been to approach a member of staff who could have helped you with you ticketing predicament, rather than taking the law into your own hands. Personally, if I was management at EMT, I would ensure the BT Police threw the book at you for unnecessarily causing several hundred pounds of damage to the barriers :roll:

 

[glynn80]

I thought dhutch did have a valid ticket, however the mechanism in place to collect it, was not working as it should.

From what dhutch has stated the station staff did not follow correct procedure as laid out within the FRPP which states that station staff should direct the customer to the booking office who should ask the customer for the CTR reference and the payment card used for the purchase, recall and then issue the selected tickets. Obviously we only have his word to vouch for this but if this is the case I feel he may have had a legitimate reason for pushing through the barriers. This is especially the case if he was under the impression that they would just open normally after a certain degree of pressure was placed upon them as occurs with gates such as the LU CTS ones.

 

[AlexS]

I'm fairly sure they do have to just open with a reasonable degree of pressure for evacuation purposes?

The barriers at Loughborough are a fairly junky system anyway. More than once I've had someone with a season ticket ask to come out at the same time as me on my ticket because the barriers won't take theirs for whatever reason, and the barrier staff have buggered off somewhere as they often do.

I once had to jump over the station fence at Loughborough to find the dispatcher to open the side gate because one of their colleagues had forgotten to latch it when the ticket barriers were shut, and there were about 10 angry people outside thinking they were going to miss their train, and a closed ticket office.

 

[blacknight]

Those are a bit taller, but the ones at Newcastle you could easily just step over.

No need to expend energy automated gate lines are very flawed when it comes to tail gating, short of putting an assistant on every gate to put a stop to it.
Commuters think its a laugh just to see how many can get get through a WAG on single ticket(Not that sort of WAG Mr Terry put your ticket away)
Gatelines which are as effective as chocolate teapot when it comes to revenue protection, just a steel comfort blanket for management highly visable but totally ineffective.

 

[dhutch]

I thought dhutch did have a valid ticket, however the mechanism in place to collect it, was not working as it should.

From what dhutch has stated the station staff did not follow correct procedure as laid out within the FRPP which states that station staff should direct the customer to the booking office who should ask the customer for the CTR reference and the payment card used for the purchase, recall and then issue the selected tickets. Obviously we only have his word to vouch for this but if this is the case I feel he may have had a legitimate reason for pushing through the barriers. This is especially the case if he was under the impression that they would just open normally after a certain degree of pressure was placed upon them as occurs with gates such as the LU CTS ones.

Well thats it isnt it.

Im not saying that a lot of other people would have dont it differently and certainly with hind site i two would not have chosen to push through the barrier instead choosing to miss my train with the assuming that in the commencing 40minutes i could have resolved a situation to a point where i had a printed ticket for that train. Either by paying out for one with the intent of reclaiming the cost at a later date, or by getting a paper 'authority to travel' and then caught the semi-fast and got to london only 50minutes late. Or waited the full hour for the next fast train and got in 60minutes late.

But given that at the time i made the decision to push the barrier.
- I had paid in full, in advance, to travel on that train.
- The collection machine wasnt working for me or atleast one other customer.
- I had been told by the ticket office staff they could not vend me my ticket.
- The barrier staff had told me and another customer they could not let us on the platform and to see the ticket office.
- The train was in the platform and had been for around a minute, meaning it would depart very shortly.
- I had a number of people i was meeting with in london, one of which i had not seen for a number of years and was only available for around an hour. (and since have not seen, due to missing the train)
- I, not unreasonably in my mind, assumed that the barrier would, due to push-through requirements allow me to pass onto the platform without becoming damaged in the process.

Daniel

 

[Mojo]

Gatelines which are as effective as chocolate teapot when it comes to revenue protection, just a steel comfort blanket for management highly visable but totally ineffective.

What's even worse is that at most stations they are only active during the day anyway, yet at night when all the scum come out to play they are left wide open!

 

[David Pemberton]

Why are the rail companies re-inventing the wheel? The ones on LU work so much better. Every morning at STP I queue to leave P1-4 as the gates wheeze open and closed and process paper tickets at half the speed of the LU ones a few floors below.

To add to the jams the management of STP can't even be bothered to put "stand on the right signs" on the escalators or arrange a "tidal flow" - both things that LU do very well.

Processing people through barriers and bottlenecks doesn't seem to be an overground forte.

 

[AlexS]

As for the barriers at Loughborough, inspection yesterday would suggest they are replacing the glass paddles with plastic - there are 2 glass ones left now, the rest are plastic.

 

[jon0844]

The new northern ticket hall and the appropriate corridors have no crowd control. They also have the nice super-slow gatelines, but plenty of them (which does mean it's easy to get in/out even at peak times).

Only yesterday, I came up the steps from the Northern Line and, despite being as far over to the left as possible (pressed against the railings), a bunch of women came down with bags and crashed into me then shouted at me as being rude for getting in their way! Now, they've come down the escalator on the left and decided to cross over for whatever reason (there's no 'keep left' signs as yet - just like no advertising) and it's chaotic if two trains have arrived and people are going up/down those steps.

So, London Underground doesn't always get it right with the way they manage people. It took ages to put up barriers to segregate up/down traffic at the interchange corridor for the H&C/Met/Circle lines to the underground lines too.

The signs are also badly positioned too, so perhaps they wanted to try and keep it similar to the experience you get at St Pancras!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Sorry What Man United Rangers trouble.

Rangers made it to the Uefa cup final and United where not involved at all.

Typical Rangers Yobs Trashing everything.

 

[Lampshade]

Ahh, my bad with that one, I forgot they were merely playing in Manchester, apologies

Well it was nearly two years ago hock:

 

[Helvellyn]

New barriers aren't slow. I was told the new CTS gates take up less space (depth) than the older ones. Therefore, it seems slower because you put your ticket in and have a shorter step to take before reaching the gate. This creates the impression the gate is being slow responding, when in fact it takes the same time as before. But I still have to remind myself when using the gates at Waterloo of this fact so I don't try walking into them before they open lol.