Welsh Bi-Lingual Signs

[Teflon Lettuce]

This reminds me of a story (which I may have told already) of a planning application that came before a town council, for a new sign for the town's Welsh bookshop. One council member pointed that the intended sign was to be in one language only, and surely it ought to be bilingual? Unfortunately, the Welsh name of said bookshop didn't translate at all well into English, and there was a bit of an impasse. Then another councillor spoke up, saying "actually, I agree with the suggestion for a bilingual sign. And as it is a sign for a bookshop, a place of learning, might I suggest that the sign be written in Welsh and Latin?" The matter was swiftly dropped, and the original application was approved.

There are many stories like this... how about the one where an asian lady was accosted by a fellow passenger on the bus by an English person with the words "we're in England so speak English" who was then pointed to the fact that they were in Wales and the asian lady was speaking Welsh!

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

As a foreigner who visited Cardiff on a day trip once and who has had no prior knowledge of the Welsh language, I did not find the bilingual announcements and signage confusing at all. I could clearly differentiate between Welsh and English and when heading back to Manchester, it was not part particularily hard to listen for "y gwasanaeth i Manceinion". I do think, however, that on signs, different languages should clearly stand apart, be that by colour or spacing.
The only confusing thing is if you do not expect there to be two or more languages. At Manchester Piccadilly, the train was announced and displayed as being for "Milford Haven", but the diesel train sitting in the platform suddenly showed "Aberdaugleddau" as its destination. If I hadn't known I was in the right place, I would have thought the train was going someplace else. The unexpectedness is also why I found the sign in the photo attached pretty funny, which I encountered in York of all places (also the German is far too formal, noone would put it on a sign like this in Germany). So perhaps, English/British stations should be more multilingual in general, be that for trains to Wales or for foreigners visiting the country?

 

[James James]

It's a really bizarre thing. As mentioned by someone before, you could go to Catalonia and see bilingual signs, are they an outrageous thing?

Lots of public transport in California has signs in English and Spanish. If somewhere as gung-ho patriotic as the USA can cope with seeing another language I really don't understand why anyone thinks it's so awful to see Welsh in, um, Wales.

Bay Area and above didn't have any spanish signage, but I imagine it becomes more significant as you approach the border. I wouldn't say they're particularly happy about Spanish in the US though, it's not uknown for US-ctizen spanish speakers to be detained by the border force... while going about their daily business inside the US. And there's plenty of racist verbal abuse towards spanish speakers, even in places like NY.

And that's despite Spanish being the primary official language in parts of the US.

Certainly, the problem is universal in countries/nations with one overly dominant language.

 

[PR1Berske]

As a foreigner who visited Cardiff on a day trip once and who has had no prior knowledge of the Welsh language, I did not find the bilingual announcements and signage confusing at all. I could clearly differentiate between Welsh and English and when heading back to Manchester, it was not part particularily hard to listen for "y gwasanaeth i Manceinion". I do think, however, that on signs, different languages should clearly stand apart, be that by colour or spacing.
The only confusing thing is if you do not expect there to be two or more languages. At Manchester Piccadilly, the train was announced and displayed as being for "Milford Haven", but the diesel train sitting in the platform suddenly showed "Aberdaugleddau" as its destination. If I hadn't known I was in the right place, I would have thought the train was going someplace else. The unexpectedness is also why I found the sign in the photo attached pretty funny, which I encountered in York of all places (also the German is far too formal, noone would put it on a sign like this in Germany). So perhaps, English/British stations should be more multilingual in general, be that for trains to Wales or for foreigners visiting the country?

There was a time when, as a child, I tried to memorise the German translation found in many of the regional railway trains here ("Im Notfall glass zerbreken....."). It was many years later when I found out that the translation was the most word-for-word, dusty dictionary formal translation possible, nothing close to the way German is actually used.

 

[86206]

Whatever next..bi-lingual signs in Kernow?

 

[TPO]

I don't have any problems with bi-lingual signs, and after 25 years living in Wales I can read/understand the Welsh on road signs and at stations as well as the English. Similarly, I can follow the Welsh announcements at stations. It doesn't take much effort to learn, and in fact kind-of happens subconsciously when it's everywhere- which I suspect is part of the whole argument for doing it. I think issues about "difficulty of reading it" are perhaps more often a result of a low reading age (in some workforces where surveys have been done, the average reading age is worrying low- around 9 years old).

What I do take issue with however is when the Welsh Government in their ineptitude are unable to put useful/accurate information about closures on their expensive electronic signs. Whether it's "A456 Ar Gau Bryn-Gil" or "A465 Closed Bryn-Gil" I understand it- but it would be really good if it was displayed on the electronic sign on the A40 prior to the Abergavenny turning, rather than less than 2 miles away from the closed section . Ditto bilingual websites- having traffic websites in 2 languages is great, but only of any use if they contain accurate information.

For those who are not aware, there has been a series of road closures at night on the roads into south Wales for months now. Coming back to Wales in the evening, a mix of closures of M4 at Brynglas tunnels, J26, J23a, J33 and A465 at Gilwern can make for an "interesting" trip, particularly if you are not a regular and haven't seen the small yellow signs at the closure location a couple of days previously, these are often the only warning of a pending night closure, generally from 20:00 to 06:00. Many of the closures are either not on the Wales govt highways info site at all, or described on there inaccurately (e.g. having a closure on M4 booked as WB whereas it turns out on the night to be EB). This week was a case in point- the only warning that the A465 was closed Brynmawr to Gilwern from 20:30 last night was some small yellow signs at the roundabout where the closure starts- I saw these Wednesday evening- however the closure was not on the Traffic Wales website "forthcoming roadworks" page on Thursday.

Over the past few months, I have vastly expanded my knowledge of local routes in the area and found some really nice villages from diverting around the closed sections (often on routes which are not official diversions). For a tourist coming into Wales however, I would suggest that the poorly-thought through and inaccurately-publicised or not-publicised road closures are far more of an off-putter.

As an aside, apart from accurate info, what the Wales Govt needs to do for road closures is learn an old Railway thing and have some "Rules of the Route" so that you cannot (for example) close both the A465 WB/A470 SB and the M4 westbound Jn 25-27 at the same time...... JMO tho.

TPO

 

[Michael.Y]

The only thing that needs changing in my opinion with regards to the bilingual situation is the departure boards on Welsh stations, especially when there's a supplementary message like Engineeering Works announcements. They spend ages cycling through the several screens (English page 1, Welsh page 1, English page 2, Welsh page 2, Engineering English, Engineering Welsh) so that by the time you've found out where your train is, it's left.

I dont understand why we can't have one screen for arrivals, one for departures, with a physical bilingual label rather than the on-screen graphics cycling between the English and Welsh, and have just page 1 and page 2 with the stations listed in two languages. Simple.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

This discussion would be easier if the UK actually had an Official Language" e.g. specified in statute or constitution, rather than a de facto one that has to be re-stated in every agreement and contract ... whereas Welsh is an Official Language, in Wales.

 

[Envoy]

‘TPO’ - It interesting that you mention the A465 at Gilwern. As you know, work is taking place to make the A465 a dual highway across the Heads of the Valleys - thus making a continuous dual highway between the M4 at Llandarcy and the Midlands via the M50. The Clydach Gorge west of Gilwern is a very difficult & costly section to build so is often having closures. I find the best way to check for such closures is to go on Google Maps - just before starting your journey and see if the closure (& time) is marked.

I note that the Welsh Government have failed to put up a large electronic sign on the A40 southbound at the approach to the Raglan interchange. In my view this is essential as this is the junction where traffic heading for Cardiff etc. could be diverted off to the west via Gilwern & the A465 in the event that the M4 is shut at Newport by a crash. Of course, such a diversion would be more ideal when the dualling of the Clydach Gorge is complete.

Here is the relevant section on Google Maps:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8024223,-3.0980105,13z/data=!5m1!1e1

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

There are many people who are more comfortable speaking Welsh than they are English. My uncle's late mother could only speak Welsh, and struggled badly with English.

Totally off topic question, but isn't your uncle's mother simply your grandmother?

 

[krus_aragon]

Totally off topic question, but isn't your uncle's mother simply your grandmother?

Not if your uncle married your mother's sister (for example).

 

[cholsey-choose]

Totally off topic question, but isn't your uncle's mother simply your grandmother?

Hah, yes, nice catch! But I was using "uncle" loosely to mean my dad's sister's husband. I think there might be a more technical term but who knows!

 

[K.o.R]

"plant" as in "vegetation", in which case you may want to look out for triffids.

Always what I imagine when I see that sign.

 

[reb0118]

Caer is Fort or Castle, in fact The Fort, as Chester (Castra = Camp/Fort) was the principal garrison for North Wales.
There's also Caerleon, Caergwbi, Caergwrle, Caerfwrddyn and many others, all marking the location of forts/castles.
Actually Chester was also Caer Lleon (fort of the legions) which is also where Caerleon on Usk got its name.
The English name of Carlisle is another one with roots back to a similar Roman/Cumbrian origin.

The are many place names in the south of Scotland (also historically Brythonic speaking) with the prefix Car or sometimes Cra. There was usually a Roman fortification nearby. Carstrairs, Cardonald, Cardenden, Carmuirs, Cramond (Caer Amon). We also have many Chesters in the South of Scotland/Northumberland too. Bonchester Bridge, High Rochester, Chesters Roman Fort, Chesters Hill Fort.