Welshwashing: TfW announcements

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Split from the CAF Civity for TfW - Updates and Introduction thread

Those unbearable announcements really grate, and it particularly annoyed me to see a video of the Liverpool - Chester unit yesterday (route entirely in England) and Welsh announcements preceding English when the train stopped at Liverpool South Parkway. I haven't got anything against the Welsh language and love the fact it's retained, but it said (horrible slowly as the new PIS does) "Dyma... Lerpwl Parcffordd De.... Diolch am deithio gyda Trafnidiaeth Cymru.... Croeso i Trafnidiaeth Cymru. Byddwn yn teithio i...... Gaer." and then by the time Elin started to speak the train was pulling off.

This already annoys me that it's this way round, because it renders the English announcement pointless if there's no time to actually say it before the train pulls off, and the proportion of people who understand Welsh and not English is going to be far, far lower than the proportion of people who understand English. Still, I didn't really make much of it, but while the train is in England it's absolutely bonkers - particularly so as this particular route doesn't even go into Wales...

SBB have this to a tee - in England, English should be first.

Without doubt.

In Wales, Welsh should be first.

Should it be though, in areas where more people will understand the announcement played in English? Perhaps if there was time to play both then it'd be fine to put Wales first, just to appease those that moan about the national principles of it being first, yada yada, but if the dwell is too short/the announcements too slow for the information to be heard, it needs to be in the language most people in the region will understand.

Most Welsh speakers also speak English, and those that don't speak English will be greatly, greatly outnumbered by those on-board that speak English but not Welsh.

SBB play it in order of the what language is wider spoken/understood in that part of the country, hence why German goes first near Zürich and French in Geneva.

If you play the famously long (6 mins or so) Heart of Wales announcement at Shrewsbury, request stop bit and all, you will be waiting a good three minutes before 3/4 of the passengers can understand what is being said!

 

[DanNCL]

Over 50% of the population in Gwynedd and Anglesey speak Welsh, so in those areas it makes sense to announce in Welsh first.

Obviously in England and in parts of Wales that predominantly speak English such as the Cardiff area it makes sense to announce in English first.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you call the NHS or local Council in Wales you get Welsh first, English second, and it's the same for the platform PIS at Welsh stations.
Emails back from the same will be in Welsh first.
I think there's a policy to that effect for public sector bodies.
If you know it's "press 2 for English/Saesneg" you can short-circuit the Welsh message.

Eurostar manages to switch the language order of announcements in mid-tunnel.
So far I have only heard Welsh train announcements in Mk4s and 197s.
Other trains, including Avanti, announce in English only, but scroll a bilingual version of the station stops.
ie Aberdaugleddau/Milford Haven, Amwythig/Shrewsbury etc, always comically unwieldy on a 158 with tiny displays.

 

[Parjon]

I don't think the language is the problem, its the pointless length of the messages and that they are in isolation.

In journey messages need to be short and to the point. Bilingual messages need to be delivered with consideration of its companion message.

If it just said "approaching X" in both languages it doesn't matter which is first.

Thanks fir traveling with random train company exclusive train services limited, have a lovely day... Ugh. It's a train journey not an experience (well. It sometimes is, but not in the way they think)

 

[hexagon789]

The most recent census in Wales showed 17.8% were fluent in Welsh, 29.7% were either fluent or had some knowledge of Welsh and 70.3% had no Welsh at all.

Regardless, in every area of Wales, English was the majority language and there are no life-long Welsh-language monoglots these days.

By all means have Welsh in the announcements, but pragmatism and sheer numbers should demand that English is first.


I await the day the Scottish Government goes one step further than Gaelic on the station nameboards...

Too many announcements or them too long can also cause problems, people tend to tune out.

After all - A staigh air an dala cluais 's amach air a' chluais eile (In one ear, out the other.)

 

[FrodshamJnct]

If you call the NHS or local Council in Wales you get Welsh first, English second, and it's the same for the platform PIS at Welsh stations.
Emails back from the same will be in Welsh first.
I think there's a policy to that effect for public sector bodies.
If you know it's "press 2 for English/Saesneg" you can short-circuit the Welsh message.

Eurostar manages to switch the language order of announcements in mid-tunnel.
So far I have only heard Welsh train announcements in Mk4s and 197s.
Other trains, including Avanti, announce in English only, but scroll a bilingual version of the station stops.
ie Aberdaugleddau/Milford Haven, Amwythig/Shrewsbury etc, always comically unwieldy on a 158 with tiny displays.

The 153s on Chester - Liverpool also have announcements in Welsh.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The most recent census in Wales showed 17.8% were fluent in Welsh, 29.7% were either fluent or had some knowledge of Welsh and 70.3% had no Welsh at all.

Regardless, in every area of Wales, English was the majority language and there are no life-long Welsh-language monoglots these days.

By all means have Welsh in the announcements, but pragmatism and sheer numbers should demand that English is first.


I await the day the Scottish Government goes one step further than Gaelic on the station nameboards...

Too many announcements or them too long can also cause problems, people tend to tune out.

After all - A staigh air an dala cluais 's amach air a' chluais eile (In one ear, out the other.)

Well said.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I await the day the Scottish Government goes one step further than Gaelic on the station nameboards...

Too many announcements or them too long can also cause problems, people tend to tune out.

After all - A staigh air an dala cluais 's amach air a' chluais eile (In one ear, out the other.)

We could well see announcements in Scots on Scotrail since it's more widely spoken than Gaidhlig, but it depends on budget I guess.

 

[Dai Corner]

The law on PA announcements is stated in Standard 83 of the Welsh Language Standards (No 2) Regulations 2016

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2016/182/pdfs/wsi_20160182_mi.pdf

When you announce a message
over a public address system, you
must make that announcement in
Welsh and, if the announcement is
made in Welsh and in English, the
announcement must be made in
Welsh first.

The general principle for public bodies is that they must offer their services in Welsh and that if they do so in English as well, English should not be treated more favourably than Welsh

 

[WelshBluebird]

I can have some sympathy for those in England who through the sheer randomness of the franchises and routes end up in the situation. But for those in Wales, is hearing the Welsh announcement first really causing any issues? I'm not really a Welsh speaker (I did it as a GCSE as you have to, and have tried to pick it up since via Duolingo, but I can't get myself to keep at it), but it has never been an issue for me. And if you travel frequently you end up pretty much understanding the announcements anyway even if you don't really know the language.

If you play the famously long (6 mins or so) Heart of Wales announcement at Shrewsbury, request stop bit and all, you will be waiting a good three minutes before 3/4 of the passengers can understand what is being said!

I mean that is more down to the announcement itself surely rather than it being in Welsh first.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can have some sympathy for those in England who through the sheer randomness of the franchises and routes end up in the situation. But for those in Wales, is hearing the Welsh announcement first really causing any issues? I'm not really a Welsh speaker (I did it as a GCSE as you have to, and have tried to pick it up since via Duolingo, but I can't get myself to keep at it), but it has never been an issue for me. And if you travel frequently you end up pretty much understanding the announcements anyway even if you don't really know the language.

I mean that is more down to the announcement itself surely rather than it being in Welsh first.

Yes, because on short dwells the doors are usually closed by the time the announcement states the station for those on board and the destination for those having just boarded.

 

[AlastairFraser]

To be entirely honest, it is a company owned by the Welsh government, it is to be expected. It was a little silly to put those entirely English services in that franchise in the first place, but I'm sure moving them to most likely Northern at the moment would be incredibly unpopular given the gulf in reliability and standards at the TOCs at the moment (unless they could bin off the 150s for some lovely 175s in a bit).

The best solution would to play the announcements across in text in both languages as normal, but play a shorter audio message announcing only the essential info after each station (where the train is, destination, next few stations) and the rest at a set interval - every 30 or 45 mins for longer services and every 15 mins for shorter services e.g Chester to Manchester.

Scrap the stupid luggage/police type announcements, put them on info posters and play them once per journey or hour on longer journeys. Vast majority of passengers will have heard them like 50 times already.

To consider the impact on those with a visual or other disability who might be adversely impacted by this, you could advertise the changes with a marketing campaign to ask the guard for a manual announcement or perhaps press a button for unscheduled announcements on DOO services if you needed to find out something and are one of those people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, because on short dwells the doors are usually closed by the time the announcement states the station for those on board and the destination for those having just boarded.

The way those dastardly Europeans do this is to shorten the announcements at intermediates and minor stations to little more than "<bong> Safle nesaf: Station, Next stop: Station".

You only need the waffle at a major station. The Class 175 system is already set up like this, isn't it? The little jingle for instance is only used at interchanges.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The way those dastardly Europeans do this is to shorten the announcements at intermediates and minor stations to little more than "<bong> Next stop: Station".

It’s not even needed, just put English first because there’s next to no people who know Welsh yet not English, so putting English first means everyone can understand the information, and then those that like to hear Welsh just for the principle of it/preserving the language/pride can hear the announcement repeated in Welsh if they so wish.

This is the point of it, it’s not that I care which language comes first, it’s that I care that they’re putting the language which 95% British people understand after the one where a fair amount less understand it but even the ones that do can understand English also!

 

[CharlieSpotted]

It’s not even needed, just put English first because there’s next to no people who know Welsh yet not English

The reason this can't be done was given by @Dai Corner in post #9, wasn't it?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The reason this can't be done was given by @Dai Corner in post #9, wasn't it?

Then my issue is with the quoted legislation.

Having said that, a way around this is as follows:

Origin station when boarding: Welcome aboard announcement in Welsh and then English.

Arriving at station: We are now arriving at XXX. Thank you for travelling with TfW (that last bit is wholly unnecessary for intermediate calls but TfW seem to love it) in Welsh and then English.

At station: This is XXX. This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX. (in English only)

Following departure: This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX (in Welsh, followed by just: The next station is XXX) in English

I wouldn’t have any Welsh announcements at all on Crewe - Chester, Liverpool - Chester or Crewe - Shrewsbury, and on English Welsh services the Welsh would come second while in England

Swiss national train operator.

I think it should be what the majority of the population can speak first. Id imagine there are a lot more people in Wales that can't speak Welsh than people in Wales who can't speak English.

And even if lots of people in an area, like Anglesey, do speak Welsh, chances are they speak English too.

 

[Dai Corner]

And even if lots of people in an area, like Anglesey, do speak Welsh, chances are they speak English too.

It's not about communicating effectively to nearly everyone, it's about encouraging and promoting use of the Welsh language and ensuring that those who prefer it can use it in all their interactions with public service providers.

 

[Llanigraham]

Then my issue is with the quoted legislation.

Having said that, a way around this is as follows:

Origin station when boarding: Welcome aboard announcement in Welsh and then English.

Arriving at station: We are now arriving at XXX. Thank you for travelling with TfW (that last bit is wholly unnecessary for intermediate calls but TfW seem to love it) in Welsh and then English.

At station: This is XXX. This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX. (in English only)

Following departure: This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX (in Welsh, followed by just: The next station is XXX) in English

I wouldn’t have any Welsh announcements at all on Crewe - Chester, Liverpool - Chester or Chester - Shrewsbury, and on English Welsh services the Welsh would come second while in England


And even if lots of people in an area, like Anglesey, do speak Welsh, chances are they speak English too.

The fact of the matter is that the WELSH legislation states that OUR language will be take precedent. To have a system where as soon as you cross the border into "lloegr/england" it changes is not practicable or even sensible.
And it's funny how I this never seems to cause a problem on our services east of Shrewsbury.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's not about communicating effectively to nearly everyone, it's about encouraging and promoting use of the Welsh language and ensuring that those who prefer it can use it in all their interactions with public service providers.

A passenger information system?!
Priorities are out of order there then, if they’re putting “encouraging and promoting use of the Welsh language” before ensuring the vast majority of customers aboard the train are able to understand basic messages/safety information/etc

 

[Dai Corner]

A passenger information system?!
Priorities are out of order there then, if they’re putting “encouraging and promoting use of the Welsh language” before ensuring the vast majority of customers aboard the train are able to understand basic messages/safety information/etc

That's what the politicians decided we want. It's a very emotive subject and there is a very vocal Welsh language lobby and a Commissioner to impose the Standards.

 

[busestrains]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion amongst some but i do not think Welsh announcements are necessary at all. There is really absolutely no need for any Welsh announcements. It is ridiculous that the law requires them. Even more ridiculous is the fact that the law requires Welsh to come first when English is spoken by far more people.

Nobody in Wales who speaks Welsh does not also speak fluent English so there is nobody who would understand Welsh announcements but would not understand English announcements. So having two languages is pointless when you could just have one and shorten the announcements. Everyone that can understand the Welsh ones can understand the English ones.

At the very least they could get rid of all of the Welsh announcements while the train is England and play them while in Wales only.

The new announcements on the 197 230 231 398 756 MK4 trains are dreadful. The new announcements are incredibly slow. Very long gaps between words. Even longer gaps between sentences. They just drag them out for as long as possible. It is utterly dreadful the way it has been set up.

Instead of introducing Elin Llwyd they should have kept Ruth Mitchell for the English language announcements but still introduced Eryl Jones for the Welsh language announcements. Surely having a Welsh language voice with a Welsh accent (Eryl Jones) and having an English language voice with an English accent (Ruth Mitchell) would be good enough and be reflective of the fact that their trains serve large parts of England too. I think this would have been a much better option compared to introducing Elin Llwyd on to the trains.

TFW seem to have completely forgotten that a large amount of their network is in England and even some trains do not enter Wales at all. Everything is focused on Wales and making everything as Welsh as possible. It seems they are keen to ignore the fact that they serve England too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't like any of the voices used in Wales, past or present. They all sound bored and unattractive.

You need voices like the Northern 195/331 one - friendly and welcoming.

 

[DanNCL]

You can’t even book a driving test in England without being asked if you require a Welsh speaking examiner, so I suspect that Welsh being ditched on TFW trains in England is something that isn’t going to happen.

 

[craigybagel]

To be entirely honest, it is a company owned by the Welsh government, it is to be expected. It was a little silly to put those entirely English services in that franchise in the first place, but I'm sure moving them to most likely Northern at the moment would be incredibly unpopular given the gulf in reliability and standards at the TOCs at the moment (unless they could bin off the 150s for some lovely 175s in a bit).

It might seem silly, but operationally it makes a lot more sense. It would be a lot more inefficient and thus expensive to crew these services from English based TOCs - and achieve nothing in return

In any case, once the full timetable is introduced the only service patterns that are entirely within England all day will be the Chester to Crewe shuttle and the Crewe to Shrewsbury locals. Everything else will be running to or from Wales

The way those dastardly Europeans do this is to shorten the announcements at intermediates and minor stations to little more than "<bong> Safle nesaf: Station, Next stop: Station".

You only need the waffle at a major station. The Class 175 system is already set up like this, isn't it? The little jingle for instance is only used at interchanges.

Correct. The 175s have many flaws, especially as they start to age, but the automatic announcements system is great. I fear it will be missed going forwards.

 

[6Gman]

Then my issue is with the quoted legislation.

Having said that, a way around this is as follows:

Origin station when boarding: Welcome aboard announcement in Welsh and then English.

Arriving at station: We are now arriving at XXX. Thank you for travelling with TfW (that last bit is wholly unnecessary for intermediate calls but TfW seem to love it) in Welsh and then English.

At station: This is XXX. This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX. (in English only)

Following departure: This train is for XXX. The next station is XXX (in Welsh, followed by just: The next station is XXX) in English

I wouldn’t have any Welsh announcements at all on Crewe - Chester, Liverpool - Chester or Chester - Shrewsbury, and on English Welsh services the Welsh would come second while in England


And even if lots of people in an area, like Anglesey, do speak Welsh, chances are they speak English too.

If it's technically practical I've no problem with Welsh language announcements being dropped on services entirely within England, but Chester - Salop does call at Welsh stations.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If it's technically practical I've no problem with Welsh language announcements being dropped on services entirely within England, but Chester - Salop does call at Welsh stations.

Sorry Chester Shrewsbury should say Crewe Shrewsbury

 

[6Gman]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion amongst some but i do not think Welsh announcements are necessary at all. There is really absolutely no need for any Welsh announcements. It is ridiculous that the law requires them. Even more ridiculous is the fact that the law requires Welsh to come first when English is spoken by far more people.

Nobody in Wales who speaks Welsh does not also speak fluent English so there is nobody who would understand Welsh announcements but would not understand English announcements. So having two languages is pointless when you could just have one and shorten the announcements. Everyone that can understand the Welsh ones can understand the English ones.

It depends how you define fluency but I can think of plenty of people who clearly struggle in English.

 

[duncanp]

Over 50% of the population in Gwynedd and Anglesey speak Welsh, so in those areas it makes sense to announce in Welsh first.

Obviously in England and in parts of Wales that predominantly speak English such as the Cardiff area it makes sense to announce in English first.

You also get this on Shrewsbury to Birmingham services, another TfW route entirely in England.

Belgium also has this problem, where the order of announcements can be very sensitive and political.

The train from Lille Flandres to Kortrijk starts in France, has the first Belgian stop in Wallonia, and subsequent stops in Flanders. So the announcements start off as French only, then French first and Dutch second, then Dutch first and French second.

Also in that area, the train from Kortrijk to Poperinge starts and ends in Flanders, but one station (Comines) is in Wallonia. So all announcements are Dutch first and French second, except on the approach to Comines, when the order is reversed.

If you adopted the Belgian approach in Wales, that would require Wales to be subdivided into areas where English is the majority first language, and areas where Welsh is the majority first language.

This would be politically sensitive, and then you would have the problem, as in Belgium, of what to do when a train passes from one area to another, particularly if this happens multiple times during the course of one journey.

Language is also a sensitive issue in Canada, where the Quebecois go to elaborate lengths to avoid using English, using concoctions such as fin de semaine for "weekend", whereas the French themselves are quite happy to use le weekend.

In Montreal the waiters certainly know how to say "the tip is not included" in English if you don't understand them when they say it in French.

 

[Sheridan]

There are lots of valid points on here and I think the main improvement from my point of view would simply be to shorten all announcements in both languages.

But to those making the argument that since everyone understands English, there’s no need for Welsh, that’s the sort of attitude that has led people to come to the conclusion that there is a need for legislation in the first place. Life might be simpler if everyone only spoke one language, but it would be an awful lot poorer for it as well.

 

[busestrains]

You also get this on Shrewsbury to Birmingham services, another TfW route entirely in England.

Belgium also has this problem, where the order of announcements can be very sensitive and political.

The train from Lille Flandres to Kortrijk starts in France, has the first Belgian stop in Wallonia, and subsequent stops in Flanders. So the announcements start off as French only, then French first and Dutch second, then Dutch first and French second.

Also in that area, the train from Kortrijk to Poperinge starts and ends in Flanders, but one station (Comines) is in Wallonia. So all announcements are Dutch first and French second, except on the approach to Comines, when the order is reversed.

If you adopted the Belgian approach in Wales, that would require Wales to be subdivided into areas where English is the majority first language, and areas where Welsh is the majority first language.

This would be politically sensitive, and then you would have the problem, as in Belgium, of what to do when a train passes from one area to another, particularly if this happens multiple times during the course of one journey.

Language is also a sensitive issue in Canada, where the Quebecois go to elaborate lengths to avoid using English, using concoctions such as fin de semaine for "weekend", whereas the French themselves are quite happy to use le weekend.

In Montreal the waiters certainly know how to say "the tip is not included" in English if you don't understand them when they say it in French.

Out of interest what is the situation on trains in Belgium which call at Eupen and Hergenrath which are the two stations in the German speaking part? I would presume that German announcements are played? If so are these played first when in these areas and then do the other two languages follow them? Do they also play German announcements outside of this area on these trains?

Canada seems to have some crazy laws to do with the French language. For an example Canada has a law that all food and drink packaging must be bilingual written in both English and French throughout the entire country. However even in France this is not required. France only requires the ingredients list to be printed in French but everything else can be just in English only or any other language. But in Canada every piece of writing on the packaging must be in both languages even outside of Quebec where French is spoken by nobody. So actually in Canada they have stricter laws regarding the French language than what France has.

In the Quebec part of Canada they have renamed the "Stop" signs on the road to "Arret" and renamed all "KFC" restaurants to "PFK" despite the fact that in France they do neither of these things. So within the Quebec part of Canada they go to greater lengths to avoid English than what France does. They seem to very much dislike the English language.