Were any 158s ever painted in NSE livery

[Drsatan]

Sorry if the question seems unusual, but when I was about three or four years old I remember seeing what I would now recognise as a 158 painted in Network SouthEast (NSE) livery passing through Porchester station. This means: were any 158s ever painted in NSE livery, even for a short time? Or did I simply see a 159 with its centre car removed (which is almost certainly the more likely possibility?)

 

[RPM]

Must have been the latter. No NSE-liveried 158s.

 

[Drsatan]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that!

 

[cj_1985]

strictly speaking no... no class 158s were painted in NSE...

BUT

The original class 159 units... (ie. the 159/0) were transfered to NSE due to several reasons... they were originally slated to be 158s... but for whatever reaons ... they entered service as class 159s... and since the 158 and 159s are more or less identical in terms of looks...

so its quite possible what you actually saw was one of the class 159s

 

[richw]

whats the difference between a 158 and 159? have never been able to find that answer!

 

[rail-britain]

strictly speaking no... no class 158s were painted in NSE...
they were originally slated to be 158s... but for whatever reaons ... they entered service as class 159s...

The units were painted into the NSE livery, but never entered passenger service in that livery
They were modified with a different braking system, so they could not be used with Class 158 units
This was a political decision as NSE did not want its Class 158 units swapped or transferred
During the modifications the interiors were also slightly modified with First Class the same as ScotRail had just introduced

 

[Drsatan]

whats the difference between a 158 and 159? have never been able to find that answer!

159s are three cars long, and originally started life as 158s. Regional Railways discovered that it had ordered too many 158s, and Network South East, looking for new stock to replace the life expired class 50s used on the Waterloo - Exeter route, decided to take on the surplus 158s. They were rebuilt at Rosyth Dockyard to make them suitable for their intended use, including installing first-class accommodation and retention toilets. Around 22 158s were converted.


SWT also took 8 surplus three-car 158s from Transpennine Express in 2007, and these were refurbished and renumbered 159/1s.

 

[richw]

so would they be different to look at, if you couldnt see the unit numbers, and easily recognisable if a 158 and 159 were in the same livery

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

159s are three cars long, and originally started life as 158s. Regional Railways discovered that it had ordered too many 158s, and Network South East, looking for new stock to replace the life expired class 50s used on the Waterloo - Exeter route, decided to take on the surplus 158s. They were rebuilt at Rosyth Dockyard to make them suitable for their intended use, including installing first-class accommodation and retention toilets. Around 22 158s were converted.


SWT also took 8 surplus three-car 158s from Transpennine Express in 2007, and these were refurbished and renumbered 159/1s.

Yep, Regional Railways have got a lot to answer to,just think if they had'nt ordered too many the wonderful 50's would of soldiered on a bit longer or any loco hauled of any class.

 

[IanXC]

Yep, Regional Railways have got a lot to answer to,just think if they had'nt ordered too many the wonderful 50's would of soldiered on a bit longer or any loco hauled of any class.

Or would there be a 165 or 166 fleet on this route?!

 

[Arriva158]

159s are three cars long, and originally started life as 158s. Regional Railways discovered that it had ordered too many 158s, and Network South East, looking for new stock to replace the life expired class 50s used on the Waterloo - Exeter route, decided to take on the surplus 158s. They were rebuilt at Rosyth Dockyard to make them suitable for their intended use, including installing first-class accommodation and retention toilets. Around 22 158s were converted.


SWT also took 8 surplus three-car 158s from Transpennine Express in 2007, and these were refurbished and renumbered 159/1s.

Still some 3 car 158's on the network 158752-158759 with Northern, with the middle carriages from Ex-Emt 158's which came from Transpennine beforehand!

 

[Temple Meads]

so would they be different to look at, if you couldnt see the unit numbers, and easily recognisable if a 158 and 159 were in the same livery

Yes they should be, all 159's are 3 car and AFAIK nearly all the 3 car 158's have a former driving cab on the centre carriage.

 

[MCR247]

Yes they should be, all 159's are 3 car and AFAIK nearly all the 3 car 158's have a former driving cab on the centre carriage.

No, there are some 158s built as 3 cars, just like 159s are. These have been shuffled around from their original sets and ATM FGW have 1 IIRC and Northern have the rest

 

[starrymarkb]

so would they be different to look at, if you couldnt see the unit numbers, and easily recognisable if a 158 and 159 were in the same livery

In BR days, yes by the toilet tanks outboard of the bogies.

159/0s can be spotted by the windows - an early SWT mod was to fit extra opening windows (and later in 2003-4ish they got a new working aircon)- 159s have 4 per side instead of 2. Sound was another way to tell as the 159s had the 400hp engine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yep, Regional Railways have got a lot to answer to,just think if they had'nt ordered too many the wonderful 50's would of soldiered on a bit longer or any loco hauled of any class.

The 159s have been a big boon to the route. While 50s were popular with enthusiasts both in themselves and for interesting traction to rescue the inevitable breakdowns the Normal passenger is more interested in how soon the service will recover from the 3 hour delays caused. The reliability of the 159s mean the route is now a valid option if you want to arrive!

 

[mallard]

In the recent MLI issue about the 158/159s, there are images that show units in NSE livery at Derby (i.e. before conversion at Rosyth). Since IIRC the units worked under their own power from Derby to Rosyth, they had to have been registered on TOPS before conversion.

So, does this mean that there were 158s in NSE livery (but not in passenger service) prior to their conversion to 159s or were they always TOPS registered as 159s, even before conversion?

 

[sprinterguy]

In the recent MLI issue about the 158/159s, there are images that show units in NSE livery at Derby (i.e. before conversion at Rosyth). Since IIRC the units worked under their own power from Derby to Rosyth, they had to have been registered on TOPS before conversion.

So, does this mean that there were 158s in NSE livery (but not in passenger service) prior to their conversion to 159s or were they always TOPS registered as 159s, even before conversion?

My Platform 5 Combined Volume for 1993 states that at least some of the units were in fact used for crew training on the NSE routes they were to operate in their original class 158 form in 1992 before they had gone to Rosyth for conversion. Though a picture I have in my possession shows that they never had class 158 unit numbers physically applied.

 

[DarloRich]

were the 158/9 (as in Class 158 - Sub Class 9) units the WYPTE units - were these the three carriage ones?

 

[K9-70]

were the 158/9 (as in Class 158 - Sub Class 9) units the WYPTE units - were these the three carriage ones?

No, two car units only. Also, they didn't carry the WYPTE branding, they carried the "M" followed by "Metro-Train" branding in red instead.

 

[sprinterguy]

were the 158/9 (as in Class 158 - Sub Class 9) units the WYPTE units - were these the three carriage ones?

No, as K9-70 says, the Metro-Train/WYPTE 158/9s have always been two cars. The three car units were 158798-814, which were introduced on the Transpennine North services.

 

[WillPS]

I've never understood why 159s actually needed a new TOPS number. Certainly more comprehensive refurbishments have been undertaken since which have not required a reclassification - and then there's stuff like 168s and 150s with far more drastic differences in their subfleets.

 

[rail-britain]

I've never understood why 159s actually needed a new TOPS number

All the numbers had pretty much been used up for Class 158, NSE had requested a sub-class (due to different braking system), so it was easier just to classify them as 159

 

[sprinterguy]

All the numbers had pretty much been used up for Class 158, NSE had requested a sub-class (due to different braking system), so it was easier just to classify them as 159

There was still room in the 158 series for the twenty two units that became the 159s, hence the driving vehicles still carrying their 158 series carriage numbers despite becoming class 159s: They would have been 158873-894. You're right that NSE were very keen on wanting a separate classification for their units though. I don't know whether the centre cars were originally destined for inclusion in those sets though before those twenty two 158s were diverted to NSE.

In fact, did it ever become known what the original planned allocation of 158s would have been had Regional Railways not decided that there would be more units than was necessary, or was the decision taken to allocate twenty two units to NSE as 159s long before any allocations with Regional Railways for the units had been decided upon?

The carriage numbers of the centre cars compared to the sets they were allocated to has always intrigued me: Was it originally intended for the last two digits of the carriage number to match the set they were included in, so that 158801-836 would have been the three car sets, rather than 158798-814 with the rest diverted to the NSE 159 programme as actually happened?

 

[starrymarkb]

There was still room in the 158 series for the twenty two units that became the 159s, hence the driving vehicles still carrying their 158 series carriage numbers despite becoming class 159s: They would have been 158873-894. I don't know whether the centre cars were originally destined for inclusion in those sets though before those twenty two 158s were diverted to NSE.

In fact, did it ever become known what the original planned allocation of 158s would have been had Regional Railways not decided that there would be more units than was necessary, or was the decision taken to allocate twenty two units to NSE as 159s long before any allocations with Regional Railways for the units had been decided upon?

22 2 car units IIRC - the 2nd batch of centre cars were built specifically for NSE...

 

[sprinterguy]

22 2 car units IIRC - the 2nd batch of centre cars were built specifically for NSE...

Aaahhh fair enough. So there would only ever have been the seventeen three car 158s that were delivered as such for the Transpennine operation, rather than centre cars being diverted from the existing 158 build programme for use by NSE. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[rail-britain]

They would have been 158873-894

As above, Provincial (as it was then) was struggling to justify these units (as it had found savings were being made by the conversions from DMUs and loco hauled services to Sprinters)
When NSE confirmed it was interested and then specified 22 units it wasn't possible to sub-classify them as 158/9 (long reason for that)

Ironically, later Regional Railways (as it was then) released further units and some of these ended up with InterCity (used primarily between Scotland and Manchester)
Regional Railways had to retain some services loco hauled as a result, mainly due to cascade of other rolling stock that was still behind schedule (due to the national rail strikes at the end of the 1980s and the one in the early 1990s)

 

[dubscottie]

The 159's came about as a result of a recession and unusual cooperation between NSE and RR.

NSE could not get funding for the Class 171 networker units (IIRC they wanted 29 units) and both had a surplus of units that where on order at the time. (NSE Classes 165/6 and RR 158).

They came to an agreement that if NSE used their extra Networkers to cover, what was then RR run services into Birmingham Snow Hill and the Cotswolds, then RR could release the 158's to NSE for the west of England. (there was also something to do with Centro underwriting some of the NSE services into Snow Hill at peak times but would need to look out the old copies of RAIL to clarify that one!)

If I remember right the 159's had/have 400hp engines and when introduced, working air con! (the air con on most 158's was never used as it contained CFC's which were made illegal about the same time)

As for the Brakes being different... Thats a new one to me!

I remember the 159's going down the dockyard branch (from Inverkeithing) to Rosyth as a kid. For some reason they always went down on their own, but usually had a ScotRail 150 attached to the front coming back up! ( maybe after mods to the Track circuit acc's)

Also remember Underground Cars going past on Low Loaders but that is another story!

 

[IanXC]

I've never understood why 159s actually needed a new TOPS number. Certainly more comprehensive refurbishments have been undertaken since which have not required a reclassification - and then there's stuff like 168s and 150s with far more drastic differences in their subfleets.

Theres also a pattern of Network South East and InterCity wanting their units to "not be Regional Railways" units. For example 322s for Stansted Express could really have been 321s.

 

[rail-britain]

As for the Brakes being different... Thats a new one to me

The braking system isn't different it was the coupling, so that a Class 158 and Class 159 were not compatable

 

[dubscottie]

The braking system isn't different it was the coupling, so that a Class 158 and Class 159 were not compatable

The couplings are the same. I have seen many a pic of them working in multiple with 150's, 158's etc. usually if there is some event on in Cardiff.

Maybe you are getting confused with the Networkers? They are not compatible with 14X or 15X units..

 

[rail-britain]

The couplings are the same. I have seen many a pic of them working in multiple with 150's, 158's etc. usually if there is some event on in Cardiff

They were converted back to standard by the RoSCO when NSE was being privitised