West Country services, post IC125?

[YorkshireBear]

Went on a voyager Edinburgh Newcastle yesterday, and a HST Newcastle Leeds.

You will never guess which was better? The HST? Nope. The voyager, it didn't creak, rattle, bang, the vestibule doors did not get stuck there was no toilet smell. The opposite experience on the HST.

Hmm HSTs are clearly the best choice for everything.... They are old and past their best, take the best ones the rest need scrapping.

 

[Michael.Y]

AFAIK, 67s and 43s are currently the only diesel locos in revenue passenger service - all the others are for freight and charter trains.

57s on the Night Riviera.

 

[The Ham]

I would expect to see the following:

- HST's up to 2020
- Mixture of 222's and IEP's with the IEP's running to Plymouth and the 222's running the Cornish services with splits on route to provide more towns with an all year direct service to London with the frequency increasing as more bimodal IEP's are released by electrification. (2020-2035)
- Post 2025 the 222's services will be strengthened by and then replaced (as they become life expired) by 1st generation IEP's until about 2050 by which time the whole route is likely to have been electrified when newer EUM's will replace them.

IEP phase 2 or later will not need to be compatible with IEP phase 1 (other than to drag or be dragged) as it is likely that any future versions will be full length (i.e. 9 coaches or longer). With any requirement for shorter sets coming from the existing short sets and/or by shortening some of the existing 9 coach sets so as to be able to lengthen to 10 coach sets some of the other existing sets as passenger numbers continue to grow.

Nor will any of the future orders will likely need to be bi-modal, as the existing bi-modal sets move around the country as they are replaced by electric versions as electrification rolls out. As they should last until CP11, which gives us at least a full 5 Control Periods to full electrify our "Intercity" network.

 

[joeykins82]

My understanding of the bi-mode design is that all of the cars will have space for a diesel generator. Given the cost of changing livery and seating layout/upholstry I think it's more likely that as routes become fully wired the class 800 sets will be converted to class 801 by removing the generators which will be installed in new build class 801 stock (thereby converting them to class 800).

 

[bolli]

Given the cost of changing livery and seating layout/upholstry I think it's more likely that as routes become fully wired the class 800 sets will be converted to class 801 by removing the generators which will be installed in new build class 801 stock (thereby converting them to class 800).

Surely its more likely that the 800 stock will be kept in a neutral livery/upholstry?

I find it very difficult to believe that its cheaper for the heavy engineering to take the engines out than it is to slap some new vinyls/seat covers on?

 

[joeykins82]

But the IEP tech spec requires that the generators can be easily added/removed as required for conversion between 800/801.

TOCs don't want neutral livery. You seriously think Virgin would accept an East Coast franchise where they couldn't stick their logo all over the trains?

 

[DT611]

take the best ones

personally i believe thats what should happen when the time comes to withdraw them, some will be in perfect condition both structuraly and mechanically so a use should be found for them if possible

 

[starrymarkb]

But the IEP tech spec requires that the generators can be easily added/removed as required for conversion between 800/801.

TOCs don't want neutral livery. You seriously think Virgin would accept an East Coast franchise where they couldn't stick their logo all over the trains?

Virgin are rather neutral logo wise, one at each end of the set and that's it. Now Cross Country with a minimum 2 logos per vehicle and website advertising throughout the train. Even First have been toning down the "F" since Moir Lookheed's departure

 

[RochdalePioneers]

We have already had DaFt have an attack of the sensibles and insist the new Greater Thameslink stock be in a non-threatening colour. Scotrail direct a livery with small franchisee logos on the doors. London transport paint their buses red regardless of the operator.

You know where I am going with this. What does an IEP set look like in Intercity livery?

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, uniformly painted sets across the country would look far smarter than the current mish-mash of liveries/colour schemes...

 

[TEW]

- Mixture of 222's and IEP's with the IEP's running to Plymouth and the 222's running the Cornish services with splits on route to provide more towns with an all year direct service to London with the frequency increasing as more bimodal IEP's are released by electrification. (2020-2035)

What other towns do you propose serving with London trains? I'd much rather see normal 8 or 9 carriage trains with a roughly similar service to now. Running two separate trains just doubles staffing costs and increases a performance risk with the join. I don't even see much point leaving 5-carriages at Plymouth. Two 5-carriage trains are unlikely to have much more capacity than one 9-carriage one because of the redundant cabs and duplication of catering facilities etc. There are some services through to Penzance which would be fine with 5-carriages but equally there are some which are too busy for a 5-carriage train. Because of platform lengths running two 5-carriage sets is undesirable too as some of the shortest platforms wouldn't fit carriages from both sets on.

 

[The Ham]

What other towns do you propose serving with London trains? I'd much rather see normal 8 or 9 carriage trains with a roughly similar service to now. Running two separate trains just doubles staffing costs and increases a performance risk with the join. I don't even see much point leaving 5-carriages at Plymouth. Two 5-carriage trains are unlikely to have much more capacity than one 9-carriage one because of the redundant cabs and duplication of catering facilities etc. There are some services through to Penzance which would be fine with 5-carriages but equally there are some which are too busy for a 5-carriage train. Because of platform lengths running two 5-carriage sets is undesirable too as some of the shortest platforms wouldn't fit carriages from both sets on.

One or more of the following, with splits happening at Plymouth, Exeter or even Par or Truro:
- Paighton
- Newquay
- Falmouth

It would then be possible to replace the DMU which currently trundles back a forth to Newquay with a portion of a service from London, which could see a saving on lease costs and track access charges from the existing.



Also some of the services run by the 222's could be run as 7+4 which would mean that the 7 coach portion wouldn't have that many less seats than the current 8 coach HST's. Also, not all services to Cornwall would need to be run by splitting services, so that if passenger levels demanded it then there could be some of the busiest services could be run by 9 coach IEP, which would see a increase in seats available. It would also be possible to increase the frequency of the services so that passenger numbers are spread over more services than at present.

For the smallest of stations, as long as you can get at least one coach from each portion to stop there then with SDO there would be no problem. As stations are rarely that short it is likely that most if not all would be able to take at least 2 coaches from each portion.

Given the passenger flows from such stations tend to be fairly low anyway such problems tend to be highlighted as a reason not to change, without regards to the fact that the same problem occurs at present with the 8+2 configuration of the HST's. As if you had a station which could only take 4 coaches and the HST's stop so that the front 4 coaches fit on the platform that means an up to 4 coach walk for some passengers. If with 222's or IEP's it's the 4 coaches around the join point, there may be one or two passengers who'd have to walk a bit further (i.e. up to 5 coaches, but only if it were two coaches from each portion. As it would be more likely that it was stopped so that it was 3 and 1 with the one coach being from the 4 coach portion) if it was a train of 222's in 7+4 set up, but if it were 5+5 it would be less as it would be up to a 3 coach walk.

However if the seat booking system is designed well, seats could be allocated to passengers to such stations so that an such walk is minimised for the majority of passengers.

 

[TEW]

Paignton already gets a reasonable service all year round, 4 trains a day. Paignton is a non-starter for dividing services because you'd have to divide at Exeter and you wouldn't have enough seats to carry on to Plymouth with. It's better served as it is now with it's own services, probably extensions of semi-fast services. It's also got a half-hourly service to Newton Abbot now for good connections to faster London services.
There's a reason that a 153 trundles to Newquay and back in the winter, it's all that's needed. The branch line is very quiet outside of peak season. A through service to London is just completely unnecessary.
There's no point running a through London-Falmouth service because it's just too much of a performance risk. The half-hourly timetable on the branch is tight enough as it is. If you run through from London it's just going to mean awful punctuality, and end up in round trips being cancelled to recover the service. And again, with a half-hourly service connections are always decent enough.
I'd like to know where your suggested 7+4 222 formation is going to fit at Paddington, because it will be very tight to fit in the platforms.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

one answer will be a Pendolino operation like the old 'Holyhead drags' past Exeter or Plymouth

Will there be any appetite for this, after the poor reliability of the Holyhead drags? If it was impossible in recent years to consistently couple a new EMU to a rebuilt loco with new couplings, it doesn't bode well for the future...

 

[JamesRowden]

I'd like to know where your suggested 7+4 222 formation is going to fit at Paddington, because it will be very tight to fit in the platforms.

If 5+5 Super Express Trains (IEP) which should be about 260m long will be able to fit into Paddington, then a 4+7 (or a 5+6) 222 at about 255m should be able to.

 

[anthony263]

We have already had DaFt have an attack of the sensibles and insist the new Greater Thameslink stock be in a non-threatening colour. Scotrail direct a livery with small franchisee logos on the doors. London transport paint their buses red regardless of the operator.

You know where I am going with this. What does an IEP set look like in Intercity livery?

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk 2

I certainly a slightly modifed version of the Intercity Swallow livery used by BR would be nicer than what I have heard the DFT are proposing.

I think the Intercity brand was one of the best things BR came up with

 

[Erniescooper]

Will there be any appetite for this, after the poor reliability of the Holyhead drags? If it was impossible in recent years to consistently couple a new EMU to a rebuilt loco with new couplings, it doesn't bode well for the future...

The DFT must think it is possible because the IEP specs state the it should be able to couple to a locomotive using just the driver , carry on in service with one driver while maintaining the normal passenger enviroment and reach 125mph if the locomotive is capable .

 

[The Ham]

Paignton already gets a reasonable service all year round, 4 trains a day. Paignton is a non-starter for dividing services because you'd have to divide at Exeter and you wouldn't have enough seats to carry on to Plymouth with. It's better served as it is now with it's own services, probably extensions of semi-fast services. It's also got a half-hourly service to Newton Abbot now for good connections to faster London services.
There's a reason that a 153 trundles to Newquay and back in the winter, it's all that's needed. The branch line is very quiet outside of peak season. A through service to London is just completely unnecessary.
There's no point running a through London-Falmouth service because it's just too much of a performance risk. The half-hourly timetable on the branch is tight enough as it is. If you run through from London it's just going to mean awful punctuality, and end up in round trips being cancelled to recover the service. And again, with a half-hourly service connections are always decent enough.
I'd like to know where your suggested 7+4 222 formation is going to fit at Paddington, because it will be very tight to fit in the platforms.

Not all the suggestions I made would even happen in 2020, however there comes a point in about 2025 when the 153's would need to be replaced. Then, unless a new type of single coach unit is developed, we'll be looking at running a two coach DMU anyway.

Likewise, there maybe a business case for Falmouth line to have more infrastructure projects to allow more services. Failing that the through service could run in place of one of the existing service allowing the service to run further east of Truro (say to Par) so as to connect the branch lines better, whilst not impacting the existing timetable.

Although Paignton has a good service for the time being there will come a point when a more frequent service could be required. Which is the point, I was making suggestions for at least 6 years time and up to 15 years time by which time things may have changed quite a bit (just think back to what has changed since 2000).

 

[YorkshireBear]

Will there be any appetite for this, after the poor reliability of the Holyhead drags? If it was impossible in recent years to consistently couple a new EMU to a rebuilt loco with new couplings, it doesn't bode well for the future...

It is deemed very much possible if you have a new built loco with new built unit.

 

[freetoview33]

What is the current intercity service out of paddington like? I know there are 2tph to Cardiff and one carries on to Swansea and there are 2tph to Bristol but what others and at what mins past the hour and lengths

 

[anthony263]

What is the current intercity service out of paddington like? I know there are 2tph to Cardiff and one carries on to Swansea and there are 2tph to Bristol but what others and at what mins past the hour and lengths

There are the following services out of Paddington each hour operated by FGW on the fast lines:

03: London Paddington - Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance

18: London Paddington - Newbury - Bedwyn (one or two services each day continue to Taunton)

21: London Paddington - Oxford fast (Some trains continue beyond Oxford to Moreton In Marsh & Worcester etc)

33: London Paddington - Exeter - Paignton/Penzance (Only a couple of trains each day)

48: London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa (This service is generally hourly during the peaks an 2 hourly off peak with one or two trains each day running beyond Cheltenham to Worcester Shrub Hill)

51: London Paddington - Oxford fast (Again a couple of trains continue beyond Oxford to Worcester & Hereford)


These are the trains I can remember there may be more

 

[TEW]

The non Heathrow Express fast line service:
Off-Peak the service is:
xx00 Bristol Temple Meads
xx06 Plymouth/Penzance
xx15 Cardiff Central
xx18 Bedwyn or beyond
xx21 Oxford and normally on to the Cotswold line
xx30 Bristol Temple Meads
xx36 (Every other hour) Cheltenham Spa
xx45 Swansea
xx51 Oxford, sometimes on to the Cotswold line

In the peaks it is:
xx00 Bristol Temple Meads
xx03 Plymouth/Penzance
xx06 Berks and Hants line stopper
xx15 Swansea
xx18 Oxford semi-fast
xx22 Cotswold Line/Oxford
xx30 Bristol Temple Meads and on to Weston-super-Mare or Taunton
xx33 Exeter St Davids semi-fast
xx35 Oxford semi-fast
xx45 Swansea
xx47 Cheltenham Spa and some on to Worcester Shrub Hill
xx50 Cotswold Line/Oxford

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The DFT must think it is possible...

Being possible occasionally when an IEP fails is different to being a good plan to be done several times a day.

It is deemed very much possible if you have a new built loco with new built unit.

Fair enough, although the adage 'Once bitten twice shy' still springs to mind!

 

[Michael.Y]

In the peaks it is:
xx15 Swansea
xx47 Cheltenham Spa and some on to Worcester Shrub Hill

1715 extends to Carmarthen
1747 retimed to 1742 to Cheltenham - forgoes Reading