West Lothian buses

[Jordan Adam]

You would be amazed by the amount of older people that use stagecoach from fife to Edinburgh who's buses have high steps so usually oap with passes will take the first bus

The difference though is that those passengers in Fife expect a coach and are used to that, it's the same in North Scotland, with West Lothian that's not the case.

I hadn't seen those pictures in the Lothian thread previously. The lift looks very similar to the type NX coaches use.

I'd have expected an interdeck version of the Leopard more than this option with dual doors and a lift. I like the livery & interior though, certainly looks as though Lothian are sticking around for the longterm.

It's effectively the same lift. As i say, i like the vehicles and think they look great, but i'm not sure on the second door set up and if it'll really be beneficial.

 

[In Focus]

certainly looks as though Lothian are sticking around for the longterm.

New depot running smoothly then ?
Must be a sense of real community now ,and changing over at Shinetsu(that's original ) Buses wont get into bus stop for shuttle Van's

 

[In Focus]

It is an odd move. Most drivers up here say it takes at least 5 minutes to get a wheelchair on a coach, so you'd very quickly loose the "benefits" of the rear door. You can see in this photo here what i was meaning about the steps looking far too steep with the ledges being too small. The Interdecks are bad enough as it is!

I certainly stand corrected LCB must be making some profit on this new venture to be affording these lovely new vehicles,or Is it another gift from the plum fairy
Have to say they very smart .

 

[overthewater]

The the main reason why Stagecoach created those B8 LE Panthers, easy access for wheelchairs but with coach feel, You have to wonder why LCB never got these. Coach "15" has be made out with Wood flooring etc
https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...ouble-deck-panorama-and-low-entry-panther-le/

 

[Scott mac]

Anyone heard what routes these are for?rumours a heard was Livingston to Glasgow or Livingston to Edinburgh surely can't be to take on the 900?

 

[Observer]

The the main reason why Stagecoach created those B8 LE Panthers, easy access for wheelchairs but with coach feel, You have to wonder why LCB never got these. Coach "15" has be made out with Wood flooring etc
https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...ouble-deck-panorama-and-low-entry-panther-le/

Perhaps if it doesn't go to plan they can just transfer them to Motorcoaches, but you are right in that you would think that they would go for the low-floor option that was developed.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Anyone heard what routes these are for?rumours a heard was Livingston to Glasgow or Livingston to Edinburgh surely can't be to take on the 900?

Lothian have said they're wanting to expand on their "Express routes to the capital" so i'd assume it's a Edinburgh to West Lothian service. West Lothian to Glasgow is already covered by the X51.

 

[alangla]

Whoever is in charge of procurement at Lothian has clearly lost the plot with that thing. How many seats does that door & wheelchair bay cost vs the convertible (albeit always left converted) space on a Citylink Panther or Elite?
Resale value on that will be dire, so they’ll need to hold on to them or take a massive loss on resale.
I’d love to know what they’ve got planned for this venture.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Whoever is in charge of procurement at Lothian has clearly lost the plot with that thing. How many seats does that door & wheelchair bay cost vs the convertible (albeit always left converted) space on a Citylink Panther or Elite?
Resale value on that will be dire, so they’ll need to hold on to them or take a massive loss on resale.
I’d love to know what they’ve got planned for this venture.

I'd assume the set up they have takes up 8 seats in total, the normal set up on coaches only takes up 4.

 

[overthewater]

Yes the double doors have taken away 8 seats..

Lothian have said they're wanting to expand on their "Express routes to the capital" so i'd assume it's a Edinburgh to West Lothian service. West Lothian to Glasgow is already covered by the X51.

If there do just watch the magic Dup Glasgow coaches appear 2mins in fact of LCB..

 

[Gingerbus1991]

A 12.8m plaxton leopard has a potential of 59 seats.

These have 48 seats.

 

[Jordan Adam]

A 12.8m plaxton leopard has a potential of 59 seats.

These have 48 seats.

Which is an interesting point... With seating capacity that low they'll be useless on any hire work as most contracts state a requirement for coaches with 53 seats or higher.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Which is an interesting point... With seating capacity that low they'll be useless on any hire work as most contracts state a requirement for coaches with 53 seats or higher.

For any reason it's repurposed for private hire the wheelchair backrest & rachet system can be removed then up-seated.

I understand that this would do away with the purpose of the ramp but it can be done.

 

[Jordan Adam]

For any reason it's repurposed for private hire the wheelchair backrest & rachet system can be removed then up-seated.

I understand that this would do away with the ramp but it can be done.

Fair point, but that would only increase the capacity to 52, removing the stairs and second door which would be far too costly, albeit raising capacity to 58. I assume the 59 seat capacity includes a guides / relief drivers seat.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Fair point, but that would only increase the capacity to 52, removing the stairs and second door which would be far too costly, albeit raising capacity to 58. I assume the 59 seat capacity includes a guides / relief drivers seat.

59 Brusa passenger seats, options like crew seats are separate just as if you bought a coach with a front mounted PLS lift without a crew fold-down.

The odd 59th seat comes from that at the rear of the Isle.

 

[winston270twm]

New depot running smoothly then ?
Must be a sense of real community now ,and changing over at Shinetsu(that's original ) Buses wont get into bus stop for shuttle Van's

There's one thing that is running smoothly! That's your constant flow of negative comments towards Lothian Country.... First fan boys are few and far between.

Not sure why you're so concerned how much money Lothian are throwing at / losing from this venture, you talk like it's coming out of your own pocket.

 

[Weemidi135]

New depot running smoothly then ?
Must be a sense of real community now ,and changing over at Shinetsu(that's original ) Buses wont get into bus stop for shuttle Van's

Oh yes and using St. John’s hospital as a terminus point and change over point is so much better right

 

[Gingerbus1991]

A 12.8m plaxton leopard has a potential of 59 seats.

These have 48 seats.

My apologies on this, 49 seats.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's one thing that is running smoothly! That's your constant flow of negative comments towards Lothian Country.... First fan boys are few and far between.

Not sure why you're so concerned how much money Lothian are throwing at / losing from this venture, you talk like it's coming out of your own pocket.

My thoughts entirely.

I can't say I have much time for the fan boys of any persuasion. Gingerbus1991 is tedious with the anti-First, pro-Lothian diatribes - and equally, this steady stream of anti Lothian stuff is similarly dull. That's aside from the character assassinations of Andrew "not a real bus man" Jarvis and Richard "megalomaniac egotist" Hall by people who wouldn't know what it's like to run a business. Having done new start ups of transport operations myself, you can make all the plans and there are still things that happen at the last moment. You have to have contingencies and whilst that may be sub-optimal operationally, that is the way it is.

Lothian are clearly investing in West Lothian with an expectation that First will eventually submit and exit the field. Nobody knows whether that will transpire. They are pursuing a bold strategy and it may pay off but it may not - they have taken a commercial view and they will doubtless have factored in the losses in the short and medium term. Part of that equation is whether First will choose to sustain their losses - they won't be losing as much but there's not the trade to sustain both firms, I would suggest.

 

[winston270twm]

My thoughts entirely.

I can't say I have much time for the fan boys of any persuasion. Gingerbus1991 is tedious with the anti-First, pro-Lothian diatribes - and equally, this steady stream of anti Lothian stuff is similarly dull. That's aside from the character assassinations of Andrew "not a real bus man" Jarvis and Richard "megalomaniac egotist" Hall by people who wouldn't know what it's like to run a business. Having done new start ups of transport operations myself, you can make all the plans and there are still things that happen at the last moment. You have to have contingencies and whilst that may be sub-optimal operationally, that is the way it is.

Lothian are clearly investing in West Lothian with an expectation that First will eventually submit and exit the field. Nobody knows whether that will transpire. They are pursuing a bold strategy and it may pay off but it may not - they have taken a commercial view and they will doubtless have factored in the losses in the short and medium term. Part of that equation is whether First will choose to sustain their losses - they won't be losing as much but there's not the trade to sustain both firms, I would suggest.

Totally agree TGW, everyone has their favourite operators, but some just take it way, way too far!

Every new operation will having teething issues with new staff / new premises / vehicles etc - that's life! Even brand new buses come with unexpected teething issues, which a lot of people never get to hear about.

First have clearly invested in Livingston quite heavily in recent years, which is something that some other parts of First Group haven't seen in a long time, so what's left must generate decent returns / have potential. That said, FSE have also wielded the axe to other parts of the network, instead of trying to re-build & invest in them as we've seen East Coast Buses & Border Buses do, BB quickly replaced a large portion on the former First fleet on hire and all this whilst being backed by a smaller operator, yet First chose to simply ditch them instead. This in my opinion, is now why they're finding themselves on the receiving end of Lothian competition in West Lothian, as Lothian see First Group as weak, which financially they still are.

 

[smtglasgow]

You’ve got to think that Lothian’s investment has reached a point where they’re essentially saying that they’re in it for the long haul, come what may. I suspect we’re past the stage where First running some buses in Edinburgh would stop Lothian in their tracks. If First eventually pull out (and the chances of them winning out are receding fast), it’s not clear that there is a fortune to be made in West Lothian – you only need to drive around a bit to realise that the car is king, even in the more deprived areas. Commuters have the choice of two decent rail lines, with the Shotts line about to get brand new trains and (hopefully) an improved timetable. Any bus service into Edinburgh will inevitably get bogged down in the congestion, so the room for growth here is limited. But as we’ve noted here many times, there is room for only one operator, and Lothian seem determined. One plus point for those of us in west: First may see an opportunity to move the best of Livingston’s fleet to Glasgow to help meet the LEZ targets.

 

[In Focus]

You’ve got to think that Lothian’s investment has reached a point where they’re essentially saying that they’re in it for the long haul, come what may. I suspect we’re past the stage where First running some buses in Edinburgh would stop Lothian in their tracks. If First eventually pull out (and the chances of them winning out are receding fast), it’s not clear that there is a fortune to be made in West Lothian – you only need to drive around a bit to realise that the car is king, even in the more deprived areas. Commuters have the choice of two decent rail lines, with the Shotts line about to get brand new trains and (hopefully) an improved timetable. Any bus service into Edinburgh will inevitably get bogged down in the congestion, so the room for growth here is limited. But as we’ve noted here many times, there is room for only one operator, and Lothian seem determined. One plus point for those of us in west: First may see an opportunity to move the best of Livingston’s fleet to Glasgow to help meet the LEZ targets.

How long is the long haul?
First have deep pockets if the need is there for board backing and to all intense purposes and numbers First are still in the driving seat in West Lothian as LCB attempt routes that cannot possibly sustain profits .
Throwing money at it is not going to solve the problem only add to losses as you rightly say West Lothisn is not a potential money maker.

 

[winston270twm]

How long is the long haul?
First have deep pockets if the need is there for board backing and to all intense purposes and numbers First are still in the driving seat in West Lothian as LCB attempt routes that cannot possibly sustain profits .
Throwing money at it is not going to solve the problem only add to losses as you rightly say West Lothisn is not a potential money maker.

LOL - First Group do not have deep pockets at all! Have you not being paying attention the woes of the group over the past 6 years ??

The group still isn't confident enough to re-instate even a small dividend for shareholders, the CEO quit, no one wants to take on the group at a realistic price as a whole / in part, what does that tell you??

Their shareprice is currently languishing at 95.55p, six years later only 8.55pp above the 2013 rights issue price of 85p (and that was discounted....)

 

[Gingerbus1991]

LOL - First Group do not have deep pockets at all! Have you not being paying attention the woes of the group over the past 6 years ??

The group still isn't confident enough to re-instate even a small dividend for shareholders, the CEO quit, no one wants to take on the group at a realistic price as a whole / in part, what does that tell you??

Their shareprice is currently languishing at 95.55p, six years later only 8.55pp above the 2013 rights issue price of 85p (and that was discounted....)

There previously gained reputation still precedes them, First will never getting away from that, it’s completely justifiable why many would think first will eventually throw in the towel, they’ve done it time and time again, across the country.

I think what the group need is too sell up, a fresh face on the transport seen for the company would help drastially, albeit I read many a thing, Jarvis vs Hall, Hall states that perceptions need to be changed and indeed that outlook and approach works surprizingly well in Edinburgh, even if it called an “ego trip”, that is why I think Hall is playing the game in Edinburgh, it works well there.

Jarvis is a man at the face of a company with a stagnant reputation.

What Imdo not like about any manager I have ever met is the face of smuggness that you find on many as if theres some sort of higher calling for them.

I would never outright state that LB has never done anything wrong but theyve done far less of the wrong thing that First has.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

You’ve got to think that Lothian’s investment has reached a point where they’re essentially saying that they’re in it for the long haul, come what may. I suspect we’re past the stage where First running some buses in Edinburgh would stop Lothian in their tracks. If First eventually pull out (and the chances of them winning out are receding fast), it’s not clear that there is a fortune to be made in West Lothian – you only need to drive around a bit to realise that the car is king, even in the more deprived areas. Commuters have the choice of two decent rail lines, with the Shotts line about to get brand new trains and (hopefully) an improved timetable. Any bus service into Edinburgh will inevitably get bogged down in the congestion, so the room for growth here is limited. But as we’ve noted here many times, there is room for only one operator, and Lothian seem determined. One plus point for those of us in west: First may see an opportunity to move the best of Livingston’s fleet to Glasgow to help meet the LEZ targets.

LCB are obviously seen as a threat to First, when I seen LB repainting some of there Hybrid Geminis for WL this is indeed where I think they are very serious and in it for the long hall.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

My thoughts entirely.

I can't say I have much time for the fan boys of any persuasion. Gingerbus1991 is tedious with the anti-First, pro-Lothian diatribes - and equally, this steady stream of anti Lothian stuff is similarly dull. That's aside from the character assassinations of Andrew "not a real bus man" Jarvis and Richard "megalomaniac egotist" Hall by people who wouldn't know what it's like to run a business. Having done new start ups of transport operations myself, you can make all the plans and there are still things that happen at the last moment. You have to have contingencies and whilst that may be sub-optimal operationally, that is the way it is.

Lothian are clearly investing in West Lothian with an expectation that First will eventually submit and exit the field. Nobody knows whether that will transpire. They are pursuing a bold strategy and it may pay off but it may not - they have taken a commercial view and they will doubtless have factored in the losses in the short and medium term. Part of that equation is whether First will choose to sustain their losses - they won't be losing as much but there's not the trade to sustain both firms, I would suggest.

First have sustained there losses at Midland Bluebird for near a decade, of course I see them sticking around for a while yet.

 

[In Focus]

LCB are obviously seen as a threat to First, when I seen LB repainting some of there Hybrid Geminis for WL this is indeed where I think they are very serious and in it for the long hall.

If that's the case they will need to alter routes (maybe copy more of firsts) and start looking at fare structures as this is not a city type scenario .
Of course they are seen as a threat their aggression is not going unnoticed.

 

[scosutsut]

I'd agree with the assessment that First are in a bad way corporately and the recent ECB/BB capitulations have demonstrated that when the going gets tough they get going.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Lothian are clearly in it for the long run as acquiring a depot and purchasing new vehicles are not the actions of the uncommitted!

 

[In Focus]

I'd agree with the assessment that First are in a bad way corporately and the recent ECB/BB capitulations have demonstrated that when the going gets tough they get going.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Lothian are clearly in it for the long run as acquiring a depot and purchasing new vehicles are not the actions of the uncommitted!

Those two were draining money at a horrendous rate and the levels of investment needed would have been crazy.
Getting a new building and acquiring vehicles really doesn't mean a lot as all these are merely assets that can be sold or used elsewhere

 

[scosutsut]

Those two were draining money at a horrendous rate and the levels of investment needed would have been crazy.
Getting a new building and acquiring vehicles really doesn't mean a lot as all these are merely assets that can be sold or used elsewhere

This will be a test of First's metal really. Last time they've walked before a challenge started, this time someone is in their face.

Their depots and vehicles are equally as disposable as Lothian's.