West Lothian buses

[Gingerbus1991]

Those two were draining money at a horrendous rate and the levels of investment needed would have been crazy.
Getting a new building and acquiring vehicles really doesn't mean a lot as all these are merely assets that can be sold or used elsewhere

Its may have been draining money but why is it that in the hands of LB, ECB’s is doing well? The investments at ECB have been like night and day compare to that every seen at First Edinburgh.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The facts are that whilst First have turned the corner in some of their businesses, whether that's their Transit business in the US and even UK Bus is beginning to show progress, there are still fundamental financial weaknesses in the business. Hence why there is no dividend and that's why the share price is still languishing.

Of course, they could bankroll a massive incursion and spend £10m on that but will they? They are currently looking to offload the First Manchester business because of the losses that it is experiencing and we all know that capital is limited. New vehicle investment is limited as it is, and they have the challenges of LEZs/CAZs across the UK to cope with. With that as a backdrop, how much of an investment will First make in defending West Lothian?

That is clearly Lothian's thinking, clearly banking on a shock and awe programme of expansion in that First will simply turn and run. However, this is where Gingerbus1991 is mistaken about First's durability, doubtless fuelled by his anti-First blinkers

There previously gained reputation still precedes them, First will never getting away from that, it’s completely justifiable why many would think first will eventually throw in the towel, they’ve done it time and time again, across the country.

Now, First certainly did have that reputation as a soft touch. In fact, they were so petrified of the competition authorities, they let all and sundry come in and eat their lunch. That was evident in how they ceded territory across the UK.

Since Moir pocketed his knighthood and went back to the farm, that is no longer true. Granted, these are firms that have fewer resources than Lothian, but we've seen them oust Western Greyhound in Cornwall, Webberbus and Stagecoach in Somerset, Crosville and Rotala in the West Country, Anglian Bus in Suffolk. Even in Plymouth where they entered into a foolish fight with Citybus before they sold to GA, First didn't up and leave once Go Ahead began competing on routes to places like Tavistock and Torpoint and the like. They hunkered down, cut their cloth and only withdrew on their terms and that was selling to Stagecoach. People may point out the Clacton exit but closing down that depot and vacating a few marginal local routes is probably outweighed by how much they have done to Go Ahead East around Colchester.

EDIT: note the mention of East Lothian and Borders. As regards the former, they hadn't invested and had been hamstrung by the various undertakings they had made. For Borders, it's all about the railway. That was the killer - the 95 (and 62) were the main money spinners for Gala depot. Once they declined (and indeed, the 95 frequency has now reduced), there was really only space for one operator in the Borders.

This is what makes this conflict so interesting. Lothian are spending - investing a substantial sum (but not losing £100k a week that was being mooted) but that can only go so long before people begin to question the losses. First are saving - they have the advantage (currently) of being the incumbent. That will lessen over time, but they are digging in and minimising their spending and so their losses. Who will prevail - that's the question?

 

[christopherrfc]

New x17 registered

https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/531827/

 

[overthewater]

I criticise First for years for its operations, so I can't not do the same to LCB for doing the same rubbish. I'm more annoyed with LCB about how its gone about this, no one can still shot down our complaints about the weekly or monthly tickets. Car is king, I dont know why LCB has been diluted about using the crap old ideas from the past 20 years, which never worked for first so I don;t see why there will work for Lothian. Who wants to go on a mystery tour...

 

[Jordan Adam]

New x17 registered

https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/531827/

Possible merge of what are First's 26 and 25?

Seems odd given that that route is covered be railway, Personally i'd have thought it would be better to have services from Edinburgh that then follow the route of the 21/22 after Livingston seeing as those mostly cover areas that are not within close proximity to the railway. (Seafield, Blackburn & Whitburn).

 

[overthewater]

Possible merge of what are First's 26 and 25?

Seems odd given that that route is covered be railway, Personally i'd have thought it would be better to have services from Edinburgh that then follow the route of the 21/22 after Livingston seeing as those mostly cover areas that are not within close proximity to the railway.

It bet will be every 30mins Faulhouse - West calder - Livingston - Fastlink - Broxburn - Edinburgh, I doubt the coaches are going on that route...

 

[Jordan Adam]

It bet will be every 30mins Faulhouse - West calder - Livingston - Fastlink - Broxburn - Edinburgh, I doubt the coaches are going on that route...

Geminis on the X17, Coaches on the X18? Perhaps something else will appear on DVSA in the next few days, i'd assume this will be phase 5.

What i was saying is something like Harthill - Whitburn - Blackburn - Seafiled - Livingston - Broxburn - Edinburgh, would be a better route.

 

[overthewater]

LCB don't do good ideas..

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Geminis on the X17, Coaches on the X18? Perhaps something else will appear on DVSA in the next few days, i'd assume this will be phase 5.

What i was saying is something like Harthill - Whitburn - Blackburn - Seafiled - Livingston - Broxburn - Edinburgh, would be a better route.

The new Leopards making an appearance and a new route registration, my moneys on this x17 getting them.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The new Leopards making an appearance and a new route registration, my moneys on this x17 getting them.

The X18 would make more sense seeing as that serves higher populated areas (With the exception of Livingston) and arguably is in more competition with the train.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The X18 would make more sense seeing as that serves higher populated areas (With the exception of Livingston) and arguably is in more competition with the train.

If anything these coaches will be a ploy to try and appeal to customer comfort, given that stagecoach sees growth with the use of coaches on there express routes.

Perhaps these coaches will see even more pulled from FSE’s buses.

It happened years ago with stagecoach using coaches from cumbernauld, they mirrored First routes but many turned to Stagecoach simply for that extra comfort.

Hence why ive said before, I really wish First would be more ambitious with these sort of ideas. They already have the First Xpress branding in Glasgow, coaches would add to the fit and feel of comfort on those morning commutes, the x1 and x11 from lanarkshire I think would benefit, as well as the buses from Helensburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I still personally think the coaches are for an M8 route, I think having coaches running through Broxburn etc would be a disaster with the constant stop-start nonsense. I think numerically the X17's buses made up of the ex Go Ahead B9's. There are 14 of these so if they're all for LC then an Airport route could happen (Run by 571-576 which still have the Luggage racks), It's maybe a pointless idea but it could go up to Murieston to offer a link to there if it was really needed. The way they've set up the coaches makes it look like a sub-brand of the company entirely so if one route along Broxburn had Green Arrow and the other just regular buses it would just look really confusing.

Can't be many more 'phases' as there's not too much big stuff left to do, main stuff is the Linlithgow corridor and to serve Birniehill and the J4 distribution centre (Could be done by an extended X27/X28) and a Whitburn-Fauldhouse link, the latter done by the X18. Livingston Village and Grange road are both yet to be served also. Again just examples by no means think this will be the actual outcome.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

New x17 registered

https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/531827/

Another new service? Damn! they really aren’t holding back.. still a direct service from West Calder to Edinburgh.. linking Lothian Country with Fauldhouse and providing another link for Corstorphine with Livingston.. you just know that after this it will be either another night bus service or Kirkliston, there’s nothing else after that

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I still personally think the coaches are for an M8 route, I think having coaches running through Broxburn etc would be a disaster with the constant stop-start nonsense. I think numerically the X17's buses made up of the ex Go Ahead B9's. There are 14 of these so if they're all for LC then an Airport route could happen (Run by 571-576 which still have the Luggage racks), It's maybe a pointless idea but it could go up to Murieston to offer a link to there if it was really needed. The way they've set up the coaches makes it look like a sub-brand of the company entirely so if one route along Broxburn had Green Arrow and the other just regular buses it would just look really confusing.

Can't be many more 'phases' as there's not too much big stuff left to do, main stuff is the Linlithgow corridor and to serve Birniehill and the J4 distribution centre (Could be done by an extended X27/X28) and a Whitburn-Fauldhouse link, the latter done by the X18. Livingston Village and Grange road are both yet to be served also. Again just examples by no means think this will be the actual outcome.

Hwo does Midland do with the 38 from Linlithgow, Winchburgh and Kirkliston? its a route I've never been familier with outside the stirling-falkirk part.

It wouldnt surprize me if we see a Linlithgow<>Edinburgh service.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It all of sudden dawns on me that LCB have grew from the x43 to a whole raft of services in what seems, very little time.

How are they coming across drivers so quickly, for an industry that apparently struggles to either employ or them keeping driver being the most likely issue.

Is it the pay thats took some drivers from other ops?

Apparently a few of the hire operators have lost a few to LMC as well.

 

[Jordan Adam]

If anything these coaches will be a ploy to try and appeal to customer comfort, given that stagecoach sees growth with the use of coaches on there express routes.

Perhaps these coaches will see even more pulled from FSE’s buses.

It happened years ago with stagecoach using coaches from cumbernauld, they mirrored First routes but many turned to Stagecoach simply for that extra comfort.

Hence why ive said before, I really wish First would be more ambitious with these sort of ideas. They already have the First Xpress branding in Glasgow, coaches would add to the fit and feel of comfort on those morning commutes, the x1 and x11 from lanarkshire I think would benefit, as well as the buses from Helensburgh.

While this is true, Coaches and any step entry vehicle for that matter will disinterest elderly passengers, Panther LEs would perhaps have been a better option. You see this in Aberdeen when it comes to First's 19 vs Stagecoach's 201/202, first win on this corridor by miles. The main reason being because most of the passengers prefer the Geminis over the coaches on the 201 and the random vehicles that turn up on the 202. The 19 has increase in capacity while the 201/202 have fallen. Regardless it will be interesting to see what happens with these coaches.

If the E400s with First Glasgow had better seating they'd probably be more suited, but that's a different matter!

 

[overthewater]

If anything these coaches will be a ploy to try and appeal to customer comfort, given that stagecoach sees growth with the use of coaches on there express routes.

Perhaps these coaches will see even more pulled from FSE’s buses.

Funny? First has kept the most of the weekly and Monthly passengers because its cheaper, there not going to switch now...

It happened years ago with stagecoach using coaches from cumbernauld, they mirrored First routes but many turned to Stagecoach simply for that extra comfort.

Hence why ive said before, I really wish First would be more ambitious with these sort of ideas. They already have the First Xpress branding in Glasgow, coaches would add to the fit and feel of comfort on those morning commutes, the x1 and x11 from lanarkshire I think would benefit, as well as the buses from Helensburgh.

Yet Stagecoach has had to go back to the double deckers because of growth and demand...

 

[christopherrfc]

https://lothiancountry.co.uk/another-new-bus-services-for-west-lothian/

 

[Jordan Adam]

https://lothiancountry.co.uk/another-new-bus-services-for-west-lothian/

Shame there's no timetable attached!

 

[In Focus]

https://news.westlothian.gov.uk/article/41032/Review-of-West-Lothian-s-bus-network

And it now becomes apparent why West Lothian council wanted them here to help save money and more than likely put a few smaller bus companies in serious peril .

 

[winston270twm]

First are not down to their last shilling, but neither can they afford to throw endless money at any bus war, in any case, we all know when they going gets tough at First, out comes the 'for sale' signs or redundancy notices.... Lothian can spend what ever money their council owners will allow. They are the only shareholders they need to answer too.

 

[In Focus]

LCB are losing money hand over fist , shelling out on routes that can never be profitable and buying a building to house this that was uninhabitable at move in day !! Now operating out a community centre !!!
No one can afford to throw money away that's not just First .
Anyway I'm sure over the next 12/18 months we shall see what develops.

 

[alchemy]

This is all gettint tedious as TGW said.
Surely at present the public is benefiting from more choice and more routes.
As for LCB having no good ideas, well thats just a daft statement. Time will tell and then we will know if they are good or bad.
Folk should enjoy the fact that there are now plenty buses at least fpr the time being

 

[winston270twm]

Is he ? So glad hes on the board at First and has insider knowledge

It's not insider knowledge, it's public knowledge that's been all-over the press/LSE for the past six years.... you should try getting acquainted with it.

 

[In Focus]

Another new service? Damn! they really aren’t holding back.. still a direct service from West Calder to Edinburgh.. linking Lothian Country with Fauldhouse and providing another link for Corstorphine with Livingston.. you just know that after this it will be either another night bus service or Kirkliston, there’s nothing else after that

What Lothian seem to be forgetting here is First had all these routes or very similar in the past and at the end were carrying absolutely nothing, I'm struggling to comprehend who thinks all of a sudden with the Rail network now far better in west Lothian that these will suddenly become a success .

 

[In Focus]

It's not insider knowledge, it's public knowledge that's been all-over the press/LSE for the past six years.... you should try getting acquainted with it.

I know but accounts are what they are and you know most of Firsts issues came from other areas ,also the past six years is the past six years ,last 18 months Firstbus UK has seen a better strategy put in place.
As i say we could do this all night but I will leave it with my last point
12/18 months we shall see what transpires .

 

[In Focus]

This is all gettint tedious as TGW said.
Surely at present the public is benefiting from more choice and more routes.
As for LCB having no good ideas, well thats just a daft statement. Time will tell and then we will know if they are good or bad.
Folk should enjoy the fact that there are now plenty buses at least fpr the time being

"Tedious " yes your probably correct .
As for "good ideas" can you apart from the 280 (25 ) can you think of one since they started?

 

[overthewater]

This has come as no surprise. West Lothian keeps on lying about its roles and duties and this review should have taken place at least back in January, it really hasnt changed that much were the overlapping areas since December..

Even if the council manages to withdraw routes the money saved will keep more important routes going like the Linlithgow Town service and hopeful bring back the old 36 during the day.

https://news.westlothian.gov.uk/article/41032/Review-of-West-Lothian-s-bus-network

The council is to carry out a review of West Lothian's bus network following significant changes to commercial bus services.

The local bus network is provided through a combination of commercial services (80% of the network) and council subsidised services (20%).

The commercial network underwent significant changes in 2018 including First Bus revising its service and Lothian Country extended their service.

As a result, commercial services are now serving local communities differently. This has resulted in a number of route and timetable overlaps between the commercial and subsidised network.

Whilst there is potential for further commercial changes, the level of overlap is such that the council is now legally required to adjust its subsidised services. Work is now underway to identify the required charges and a revised subsidised local bus service.

A report will be submitted to the Development and Transportation PDSP to discuss the changes required to remove the overlaps and to maintain a sustainable subsidised service which contributes to the council's overarching public transport strategy. The outcome will be reported to a future meeting of the Council Executive.

Executive councillor for Development and Transport, Cathy Muldoon, said: "Our review could not be started earlier as the commercial market was changing frequently and any modelling work undertaken would have been negated as the next phase of changes was made.

"The majority of bus routes in West Lothian are commercially operated and when they change it can impact upon the linkages and overlaps between subsidised routes. Funding for subsidised bus services is limited and it's right that we carry out a review to ensure that breaks and overlaps in services are identified and that subsidised routes operate as efficiently as possible."

The council has agreed to extend funding for a number of time limited subsidised services until the outcome of the review is known.

To maintain the current level of subsidised service until the review is complete, the council has agreed to extend a number of time limited subsidised bus route until 31 July. The funding for these subsided services was due to end at the end of March.

And it now becomes apparent why West Lothian council wanted them here to help save money and more than likely put a few smaller bus companies in serious peril .

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I wonder if there will be no Sunday service on the X17 given the fact its launching on a Monday

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Funny? First has kept the most of the weekly and Monthly passengers because its cheaper, there not going to switch now...




Yet Stagecoach has had to go back to the double deckers because of growth and demand...

It wouldnt have bothered me as much if stagecoach didnt decide that seats that would be suitable for city routes were chosen.

Transito high backs would have added to that comfort on the deckers they use now.