West Lothian buses

[Darklord8899]

So in a bit of (not sure if boredom or reminising) I looked back at the darts on the 22, and I noticed in google images this picture of a Lothian Dart with Dunfermline on the roller blind.

(I could not find the pic to link to his flickr as this was found in google images but full credit goes to WSMTDL2499)

It made me wonder why LB had Dunfermline on the rollerblind, back in 1999/2000... I don't know of any Darts being sold to any bus company in Fife either so I can't imagine they added that after the fact.

Was there ever plans to go from Edinburgh to Dunfermline/Park and ride/Inverkething back then? It certainly is interesting to think especially with the expansion today and future possible planning that maybe over the FRB is not out of the realms of possibility...

I have also seen Peebles on a rollerblind (can't remember how long ago that was) but thought that was a fairly random place to have.

 

[tbtc]

I have also seen Peebles on a rollerblind (can't remember how long ago that was) but thought that was a fairly random place to have.

I saw that - IIRC it was on an Atlantean at Wester Hailes - back when services were being changed regularly in the early '90s and termini weren't necessarily "paired" (i.e. on the old blinds, you'd have Ferniehill between Baberton and East Craigs, so drivers on the 31/33 didn't have to wind them far). But when routes were being chopped and changed regularly at that time the driver often had to wind through dozens of other places to get to the one that they wanted.

I presumed that it was a "just in case" for potential tendered work or loans, rather than any actual ambition - from what I remember LRT started running out to West Lothian before appropriate destination blinds were produced (ah the "tram board" era), so it's not as if the blinds had to be in place before a service would be registered. You never know though...

 

[Darklord8899]

I saw that - IIRC it was on an Atlantean at Wester Hailes - back when services were being changed regularly in the early '90s and termini weren't necessarily "paired" (i.e. on the old blinds, you'd have Ferniehill between Baberton and East Craigs, so drivers on the 31/33 didn't have to wind them far). But when routes were being chopped and changed regularly at that time the driver often had to wind through dozens of other places to get to the one that they wanted.

I presumed that it was a "just in case" for potential tendered work or loans, rather than any actual ambition - from what I remember LRT started running out to West Lothian before appropriate destination blinds were produced (ah the "tram board" era), so it's not as if the blinds had to be in place before a service would be registered. You never know though...

I have a "Blackford" tram board I found on Queensferry Road when I was still living with parents. It was around the time of the 40/41 when the 40 ran to Queensfery. Blackford was one of those "not on the rollerblind" places. The 41 was Cramond to Greenbank.

 

[overthewater]

Didn't Lothian once operate the 315 to Peebles? Im sure that why there had then just in case they won tenders.

 

[Stef434]

I’m guessing Lothian are watching the mess Firstgroup have got themselves into and think they’re pushing at an open door. A straightforward purchase of the Livingston depot and operations would probably fail the Competition Commission’s tests, so from Lothian’s perspective, the only way in is to set up a rival operation and hope First pull out. Perhaps the fear is that if Lothian don’t step in now, someone else (Stagecoach?, McGills?) might - and a strong competitor just to west of Edinburgh is NOT what Lothian want..

Why would it fail the competition tests.
If LCB is operating as a separate entity with LB as the parent company then LCB can make the offer for Livingston cant see a monopoly forming.
Stagecoach may have problems as they operate Fife and Glasgow ,if you include WL ,then you have all the central belt,send in Rennies(if they are a separate company not a subsidy) to take over on their behalf.

 

[Stef434]

Thats not always been the case, First pulled out of Harthill and Blackridge around 2002? I remember it was just Bulldog, and Davidson covering those parts. Then passengers, I think it was around this time First come back into these places.

it was

 

[158756]

Why would it fail the competition tests.
If LCB is operating as a separate entity with LB as the parent company then LCB can make the offer for Livingston cant see a monopoly forming.
Stagecoach may have problems as they operate Fife and Glasgow ,if you include WL ,then you have all the central belt,send in Rennies(if they are a separate company not a subsidy) to take over on their behalf.

Surely that's the same as say, Stagecoach Devon buying First Greater Manchester whilst claiming to be nothing to do with the Stagecoach buses running in Manchester. That would be nonsense, and would of course never get past the regulator. Even if LCB was in different ownership to LB they'd soon be in trouble for collusion if they operated as one network.

 

[smtglasgow]

The Competition Commission has form for blocking other sales/mergers. First’s sale of North Devon to Stagecoach fell through because of this. Treating LCB and ECB as different entities to Lothian won’t fool the CC – if nothing else the common ticketing proves this. And remember that the combined Lothian group is on track to become the biggest bus company in Scotland – with minimal competition in its operating area – so there will be concerns on size. Now, you could easily argue that what Lothian are aiming to do is to the benefit of passengers – it probably is. But the CC is more interested in market dominance and competition interests – it has proved time and again that passengers come some way done its list of priorities!

For the same reasons, I don’t think Stagecoach would be allowed to buy First Scotland East (too great a share of Scottish bus market), but they might be allowed to buy Livingston (or one of the other depots) because they would have strong competitors on either side (Lothian, First Glasgow No. 2 and whoever ends up with the other FSE depots). If McGills are still interested and have the finance they would probably get the depot(s) without referral.

Back in the day it was different. Strathclyde Buses were allowed to buy Kelvin Central mainly because KCB were broke – they couldn’t afford fleet replacement. The Monopolies & Mergers report on Strathclyde Holdings takeover of Kelvin Central is really interesting if you’re into the business side of the industry.

Sorry if this a bit long, but part of the day job is work on monopolies (not buses). But the point remains. If Lothian really want to enter and control the West Lothian market, their best bet is to do what they're doing - launch a competitive attack and hope for the best. If First roll over quickly, it *might* even be the cheapest way of doing it.

 

[overthewater]

When First brought Strathclyde Buses the CC should have made them merge Cumbernauld and Airdrie depots. I might have help solve some of the problems which has come about.

If Lothian really want to enter and control the West Lothian market, their best bet is to do what they're doing - launch a competitive attack and hope for the best. If First roll over quickly, it *might* even be the cheapest way of doing it.

I would be very very surprised if we dont see some changes by December or January 2019, The current management can't hope for the best with the current undertaking.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It’s just a giant waiting game, I renember the outroar of the 43 for the 2 zone fares and now over a year later no one is bothered, I noticed more folk on social media warming up to Lothian, plus the roadshows this week are bound to do some good. At the very least hopefully there will be a new route or a increased frequency on the X27/X28 by the end of this year/early next year

 

[overthewater]

Your still not understanding it will cost more money for the commuters and day ticket users if their use Lothian. There a good reason why people complaining..

Big difference with south queensferrry.. The fairs were still cheaper...

I don't understand this belielf people can afford to pay more...

 

[Stef434]

The Competition Commission has form for blocking other sales/mergers. First’s sale of North Devon to Stagecoach fell through because of this. Treating LCB and ECB as different entities to Lothian won’t fool the CC – if nothing else the common ticketing proves this. And remember that the combined Lothian group is on track to become the biggest bus company in Scotland – with minimal competition in its operating area – so there will be concerns on size. Now, you could easily argue that what Lothian are aiming to do is to the benefit of passengers – it probably is. But the CC is more interested in market dominance and competition interests – it has proved time and again that passengers come some way done its list of priorities!

For the same reasons, I don’t think Stagecoach would be allowed to buy First Scotland East (too great a share of Scottish bus market), but they might be allowed to buy Livingston (or one of the other depots) because they would have strong competitors on either side (Lothian, First Glasgow No. 2 and whoever ends up with the other FSE depots). If McGills are still interested and have the finance they would probably get the depot(s) without referral.

Back in the day it was different. Strathclyde Buses were allowed to buy Kelvin Central mainly because KCB were broke – they couldn’t afford fleet replacement. The Monopolies & Mergers report on Strathclyde Holdings takeover of Kelvin Central is really interesting if you’re into the business side of the industry.

Sorry if this a bit long, but part of the day job is work on monopolies (not buses). But the point remains. If Lothian really want to enter and control the West Lothian market, their best bet is to do what they're doing - launch a competitive attack and hope for the best. If First roll over quickly, it *might* even be the cheapest way of doing it.

Thanks for this update been a while since I was involved in the politics of the OFT and CC

 

[Darklord8899]

Photo pinched from Facebook.....
I believe it is one of the ex-London buses

 

[Driver362]

Beautiful looking machine the colours really suit it

 

[overthewater]

Well the event Today at Livingston seem to have gone done well. The company was handing out Free tickets to try the service over the next two weeks, there have also flooded the area with timetables, and Lothian Country shopping bags. Also the reason the Ridacard was not introduced is there are plans to replace it with something more high tech, It will be interesting to see what comes next.

The company has made it clear it's here to stay, and only started the services because of the recent First changes which I'm not buying because some things dont add up... especal the no600. Maybe it was a bit from both sides. It was also highlighted more routes are coming with something being announced shortly with more coming in the months ahead.

The only clues are: Its within West lothian and it follows the old service numbers:

300/301: Town Circular
280: Livingston - Hospital - Deans - Bathgate - Armadale. ( ie the old 800 or current first 25)
284: Broxburn - craigshill - Livingston - West Calder
Of course the old 281 is current X28, while 27 was always Edinburgh - livingston then whitburn.

I know where my money is going.

 

[kje7812]

Also the reason the Ridacard was not introduced is there are plans to replace it with something more high tech, It will be interesting to see what comes next.

Presumably tied into the new wayfarers being introduced to LB and ECB.

 

[Darklord8899]

Well the event Today at Livingston seem to have gone done well. The company was handing out Free tickets to try the service over the next two weeks, there have also flooded the area with timetables, and Lothian Country shopping bags. Also the reason the Ridacard was not introduced is there are plans to replace it with something more high tech, It will be interesting to see what comes next.

The company has made it clear it's here to stay, and only started the services because of the recent First changes which I'm not buying because some things dont add up... especal the no600. Maybe it was a bit from both sides. It was also highlighted more routes are coming with something being announced shortly with more coming in the months ahead.

The only clues are: Its within West lothian and it follows the old service numbers:

300/301: Town Circular
280: Livingston - Hospital - Deans - Bathgate - Armadale. ( ie the old 800 or current first 25)
284: Broxburn - craigshill - Livingston - West Calder
Of course the old 281 is current X28, while 27 was always Edinburgh - livingston then whitburn.

I know where my money is going.

I saw an LCB returning to Longstone this afternoon on my way home from work. It was showing "Driver Training" .... wonder how many drivers will get lost in Livingston during the first week or two?

 

[overthewater]

There was a bus load (dozen ) being Chauffeur about.

Presumably tied into the new wayfarers being introduced to LB and ECB.

Any ideas when the new Wayfarer will appear?

 

[atlantean]

Well the event Today at Livingston seem to have gone done well. The company was handing out Free tickets to try the service over the next two weeks, there have also flooded the area with timetables, and Lothian Country shopping bags. Also the reason the Ridacard was not introduced is there are plans to replace it with something more high tech, It will be interesting to see what comes next.

The company has made it clear it's here to stay, and only started the services because of the recent First changes which I'm not buying because some things dont add up... especal the no600. Maybe it was a bit from both sides. It was also highlighted more routes are coming with something being announced shortly with more coming in the months ahead.

The only clues are: Its within West lothian and it follows the old service numbers:

300/301: Town Circular
280: Livingston - Hospital - Deans - Bathgate - Armadale. ( ie the old 800 or current first 25)
284: Broxburn - craigshill - Livingston - West Calder
Of course the old 281 is current X28, while 27 was always Edinburgh - livingston then whitburn.

I know where my money is going.

Well the event Today at Livingston seem to have gone done well. The company was handing out Free tickets to try the service over the next two weeks, there have also flooded the area with timetables, and Lothian Country shopping bags. Also the reason the Ridacard was not introduced is there are plans to replace it with something more high tech, It will be interesting to see what comes next.

The company has made it clear it's here to stay, and only started the services because of the recent First changes which I'm not buying because some things dont add up... especal the no600. Maybe it was a bit from both sides. It was also highlighted more routes are coming with something being announced shortly with more coming in the months ahead.

The only clues are: Its within West lothian and it follows the old service numbers:

300/301: Town Circular
280: Livingston - Hospital - Deans - Bathgate - Armadale. ( ie the old 800 or current first 25)
284: Broxburn - craigshill - Livingston - West Calder
Of course the old 281 is current X28, while 27 was always Edinburgh - livingston then whitburn.

I know where my money is going.

I had a reply from LCB and about my dismay of no Ridacards on LCB for West Lothian and that First & One ticket offer best value. The reply from LCB was my comments will passed to the commercial team. But LCB believe they offer value.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

i think the fact a lot of first livi drivers have jumped bus operator will reduce the chance of drivers being lost in and around livi and they would probably have video the route for upload to you tube like some of the others lothian have done. whatever the marketing team are doing at the roadshows is having an effect as the buzz about them starting is a talking point amongst strangers on the bus , with them thinking that lothian are gonna take over the world, starting of course in west lothian

 

[overthewater]

PHRASE 2: So that is 280 coming but the 287 is more of a surprise but im sure that was only ever a part time service back in the day. I wonder when Phrase 3 will be coming?

NOTE this is the email that being sent out, before you ask for the link

Two days prior to commencing our operations in West Lothian, we're delighted to announce that customers in West Lothian are to receive a further two new routes from Sunday 30th September.

* Service 280 will connect Backridge and Armadale with Bathgate, Livingston North, Eliburn, St John’s Hospital, West Lothian College and Livingston Centre, 7 days a week.

* Service 287 will connect Bathgate, Blackburn, Seafield, Eliburn, St John’s Hospital, Howden and Livingston Centre, also 7 days a week.

As a result of these new services, a further 21 new jobs will be created, further boosting the local economy and cementing the company’s long term commitment to the local community of West Lothian.

Nigel Serafini, Commercial Director of Lothiancountry said:
“As a socially responsible operator, we know that providing lifeline connections for residents and commuters is vital. We are excited to already be able to further enhance our operations in the West Lothian area and are delighted to introduce these new services further expanding our network. We look forward to welcoming our first customers on-board this Sunday.”
Vice chair of West Lothian Council’s Development and Transport Policy and Development Scrutiny Panel, Councillor David Dodds, said:
“We are delighted to welcome Lothian Country to West Lothian, and look forward to their services starting on 19 August.

“It’s great to see a new operator enter the commercial bus network in West Lothian, offering increasing choice for local bus users in one of the fastest growing areas in Scotland.”
Lothiancountry begins operation in West Lothian this Sunday, 19thAugust, and will operate a fare structure based on a simple and customer friendly zonal system. Along with great value single fares we will be offering three Dayticket options for customers.

• The countryWEST Day Ticket provides customers with unlimited travel across West Lothian for £5 per day.
• The lothianWEST Day Ticket will allow unlimited access and unrivalled value across all Lothian Country services and Lothian city services for just £7.50 per day.

• The NETWORK Day Ticket, which will allow Lothian Country customers access to all Lothian day services, Airlink and East Coast Buses services at just £9 for a whole day.

For regular customers and users, discounted m-ticket bundles will also be available to purchase for Lothiancountry services using the Lothian m-ticket app at special introductory offer prices.
A bespoke fleet of double deck vehicles in Lothiancountry’s distinctive green and cream livery fitted with USB charging points and Wi-Fi have been sourced for use on these services, offering customers high levels of comfort and quality for their journeys.
We look forward to welcoming you onboard!

 

[goldisgood]

Hmmm... starting to look like Lothian may do better than I thought. Any ideas on the frequencies of the new routes?

 

[overthewater]

I dare say it will be every 30mins, however first will still be out performing Lothian on frequence, price and direct routes. Can anyone remember what the original number was for Fauldhouse to Livingston?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I dare say it will be every 30mins, however first will still be out performing Lothian on frequence, price and direct routes. Can anyone remember what the original number was for Fauldhouse to Livingston?

Something tells me it was the 279, Not 100% though

 

[MrHopefull]

yep got the same one

Following my previous emails, I am delighted and really pleased to announce a further two new routes to our Lothiancountry offering from Sunday 30th September.


Service 280 will connect Blackridge and Armadale with Bathgate, Livingston North, Eliburn, St John’s Hospital, West Lothian College and Livingston Centre, 7 days a week. Whilst Service 287 will connect Bathgate, Blackburn, Seafield, Eliburn, St John’s Hospital, Howden and Livingston Centre, also 7 days a week.


Earlier this week we welcomed the first intake of new driver colleagues to the Lothian family and Lothiancountry, all of whom have spent the week undertaking a comprehensive induction programme, route learning and garage and vehicle familiarisation along with the new Lothiancountry management team at Longstone. As a direct result of announcing these new services, I am pleased to inform you all that we will be creating a further 21 new driving jobs at Lothiancountry and will be continuing to recruit new colleagues.


As I am sure you can all imagine it has been a huge task to get everything ready for launch and I’d like to thank every one of the teams across our whole business who have gone above and beyond to ensure we exceed our new customers’ expectations from day one.


I would also like to wish the team at Lothiancountry all the best for next week as we begin our operations in West Lothian.




Richard Hall Mark Heritage

Manging Director General Manager

 

[AlexanderPS]

Are LCB going to use single decks for the 280 and 287?

 

[overthewater]

Something tells me it was the 279, Not 100% though

That never lasted long did it? Because it was 98/99 and 198/199 that did the old Circular Fauldhouse - Bathgate with Davidson doing the direct bus Via west Calder?

Other great numbers from the Late 80s and 90s:

12: Eastfield - Blackburn - Bathgate
16: Blackridge - Broxburn - Edinburgh
18: Whitburn - Birniehill - Bathgate - broxburn - Edinburgh
49: Bathgate - Linlithgow - Bo'ness
98/99: Circular Bathgate Stonyburn - Fauldhouse - Whitburn - Armadale - Bathgate
196/197: Boghall
284: West Calder - Livingston - Broxburn
287/288 Livingston - Deans - Bathgate - Blackburn - Kirkton - livingston
385: Bathgate - Armadale - Whitburn

D26: Fauldhouse - Whitburn - Livingston
27: Edinburgh - Livingston - Harthill
280: Become D29/D30
281: Current X28, but was D28 during the mid 90s

There are the clues.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I wonder what the chances of routes similar to the old LRT 9/9A/X9, 63/X63, 64/X64 and X79 launching are. Those were the last ones to run to WL I believe. Clearly those numbers won't be used and the 63/X63 started at Marine so they'd certainly need changes. I think the routes are more than likely confined to history

 

[Darklord8899]

I only ever remember Fauldhouse being the 26.
I also have a vague recollection of the following:

16: Edinburgh - Armadale
(the 16 went all the way out to Airdrie at one point iirc)
19: Edinburgh - Armadale - Blackridge (latterly was part of the 16 timetable before Blackridge journeys were axed)
X21: Edinburgh - Bellsquarry
X22: Edinburgh - Livingston bus station
X23: Edinburgh - Livingston Deans
X24: Edinburgh - Livingston (Deans through different route to X23 ??)
Also remember there being a 275, 278, 279, but can't remember their routes
Note: I'm going back to mid to late 80's here

 

[Darklord8899]

I wonder what the chances of routes similar to the old LRT 9/9A/X9, 63/X63, 64/X64 and X79 launching are. Those were the last ones to run to WL I believe. Clearly those numbers won't be used and the 63/X63 started at Marine so they'd certainly need changes. I think the routes are more than likely confined to history

9: currently not used, so could be resurrected
63: now the Riccarton - South Queensferry council tender, so won't to be used
64: was latterly used by E&M Horsburgh (Liviy - Silverknowes, always thought it was a slightly bizzare route) sure it was a council tender service as well. I think LB ran it as well for a short while or a variation of it.