Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[Goldfish62]

A usually accurate source has told me the reason is Cornwall Council withdrew funding early, and will not retender the routes.

Oh dear - if true this makes a complete farce of their current public consultation exercise on spending cuts. Shame on the council if true.

 

[starrymarkb]

It does seem that bus cuts are in favour, Dorset is apparently looking at withdrawing funding from Saturday buses that see an average of less then 20 passengers per trip...

 

[TEW]

A usually accurate source has told me the reason is Cornwall Council withdrew funding early, and will not retender the routes.

Definitely the council withdrawing funding. The small number of school contracts that were run as part of the routes will have to be retendered but vast areas of rural West Cornwall will now be without any bus service. I sincerely doubt this is the last of the cuts we'll see either.

 

[richw]

43million I heard the council need to cut from their spending with as near immediate as what is possible. I suspect the council have given WG notice rather than WG quitting. Personally I can see a lot of areas the council are wasting money, and would be better cuts than leaving people in rural areas with no transport.

 

[Goldfish62]

43million I heard the council need to cut from their spending with as near immediate as what is possible. I suspect the council have given WG notice rather than WG quitting. Personally I can see a lot of areas the council are wasting money, and would be better cuts than leaving people in rural areas with no transport.

Completely agree. It also makes a complete nonsense of the council's current public consultation on spending cuts as it appears that they've already made their decisions.

I can see most evening and Sunday services ending soon. It will hit many people very badly. Not only the elderly, but also those with evening jobs who rely on the currently comparatively good evening network in Cornwall.

But presumably the car-owning majority are happy at having their council tax frozen again so s*d everyone else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Definitely the council withdrawing funding. The small number of school contracts that were run as part of the routes will have to be retendered but vast areas of rural West Cornwall will now be without any bus service. I sincerely doubt this is the last of the cuts we'll see either.

Indeed - by next Spring Cornwall's bus services will most likely be down to Mon-Sat daytimes only, concentrated on the core networks around and between major towns. It's going to be dreadful.

Thank god the Cornish branch lines are still thriving.

 

[winston270twm]

WG have sold Merc Citaro 206 WK04OKE to Ensign Bus & Coach

http://www.ensignbus.com/mercedes-citaro-2004.html

 

[richw]

Completely agree. It also makes a complete nonsense of the council's current public consultation on spending cuts as it appears that they've already made their decisions.

I can see most evening and Sunday services ending soon. It will hit many people very badly. Not only the elderly, but also those with evening jobs who rely on the currently comparatively good evening network in Cornwall.

But presumably the car-owning majority are happy at having their council tax frozen again so s*d everyone else.

All of the councils cars and vans are replaced brand new every 3 years. Why are they deemed unsuitable to keep until their 5 years old. Surely the depreciation in years 3-5 is much lower than year 1.
They are installing electric car charging points all over the place, how many electric cars do you see driving round Cornwall?
They are buying 6 brand new double deckers for the Truro park and Ride, and disposing of the current remaining 3-5 year old Citaros, admittedly they gain some of the money back in leasing costs from First, but do they really need brand new deckers on the Truro P+R rather than second hand which are as much as 1/10 of the cost. If First are happy running P reg deckers around on the 18 all day on a 60 mile round trip with straight turn around, surely 10 year old deckers can do for the council on the P+R. They also are overpaying millions in housing benefit due to incompetence, I notified them of an increase in my salary and it took them 8 weeks to stop my housing benefit, despite numerous follow up calls, I knew they'd demand it back so placed it into a high interest saver, awaiting them to ask for it back, and made some interest out of their incompetence!

The increase in council tax to prevent these cuts would have worked out around £2 a month for a band D. Surely this would have been a better choice than cutting the budget, pulling subsidiaries. I bet when the locals go to the media their bus is pulled Cornwall Council will leave WG to take the blame.

 

[overthewater]

All those cars and vans are leased. If kept longer Mot test come in to play and cost more money. Those brand new buses will be leased.

Council tax increase even of £2 is not the tory way..

 

[richw]

All those cars and vans are leased. If kept longer Mot test come in to play and cost more money. Those brand new buses will be leased.

Council tax increase even of £2 is not the tory way..

A 5 year lease will work out cheaper than a 3 year lease. I have just taken a quick look what Peugeot can offer on both leases, using the model my neighbour has (council employee, company van). On a Partner Van a 3 year lease will cost £229 per month, A 5 year lease £159 per month. (Peugeot use guaranteed future value at the end point and charge the difference on their leases, there is little difference in value between a 3 year and 5 year old Partner guarantee value) So a 3 year lease at that monthly price will cost £13740 over 60 months (assuming a like for like lease is taken when the vehicle is swapped at month 36), 60 months at the 5 year lease fee will cost £9540. £4200 per vehicle saved by taking a 5 year lease, less the additional MOT cost. Servicing costs will be irrelevant as year 4 service will cost the same as year 2, and year 5 the same as years 1+3.

 

[SWTH]

Bearing in mind I'm speaking as someone who may very well lose their job depending on how and when services are cut, I have to say that it is daft to fund services that carry next to nobody. Everybody seems to want a bus specifically tailored to their needs, which in real life is called a taxi. "But I can't afford the cost of a taxi everywhere!" they cry, without thought or care for what it costs to operate a bus service.

The bottom line is that if the service is not financially viable by itself, how much do you subsidise it by before it becomes a waste of money?

 

[richw]

Bearing in mind I'm speaking as someone who may very well lose their job depending on how and when services are cut, I have to say that it is daft to fund services that carry next to nobody. Everybody seems to want a bus specifically tailored to their needs, which in real life is called a taxi. "But I can't afford the cost of a taxi everywhere!" they cry, without thought or care for what it costs to operate a bus service.

The bottom line is that if the service is not financially viable by itself, how much do you subsidise it by before it becomes a waste of money?

How many services carry next to nobody out of interest? Every bus I have seen in recent times during the day at least has looked well used. The busiest services I have used though in recent times has been the 2245 and 2345 First 18 service from Truro to Redruth!

 

[Goldfish62]

The increase in council tax to prevent these cuts would have worked out around £2 a month for a band D. Surely this would have been a better choice than cutting the budget, pulling subsidiaries. I bet when the locals go to the media their bus is pulled Cornwall Council will leave WG to take the blame.

It's central government which has imposed a council tax freeze and even the most Tory of councils are complaining about it. But then Tory votes are with Daily Mail-reading car owners, not rural non-car-owning bus passengers.

 

[richw]

It's central government which has imposed a council tax freeze and even the most Tory of councils are complaining about it. But then Tory votes are with Daily Mail-reading car owners, not rural non-car-owning bus passengers.

Hence why 3 of Cornwall's 6 MPs are Conservative......

 

[SWTH]

How many services carry next to nobody out of interest? Every bus I have seen in recent times during the day at least has looked well used. The busiest services I have used though in recent times has been the 2245 and 2345 First 18 service from Truro to Redruth!

Depends. Early Saturday/Sunday services are quiet, late evening services are usually quiet apart from the usual Fri/Sat upturn. Obviously a main service like the 14/18 between main population centers will be fairly busy, but I've known the 591/2 be empty regularly from 2100 onwards.

 

[winston270twm]

How many services carry next to nobody out of interest? Every bus I have seen in recent times during the day at least has looked well used. The busiest services I have used though in recent times has been the 2245 and 2345 First 18 service from Truro to Redruth!

Surely though, if services are that well used in the daytime they shouldn't need a subsidy? Couldn't some of they continue commercially of tagged on to other commercial services that are profitable to help may them pay?

 

[richw]

Surely though, if services are that well used in the daytime they shouldn't need a subsidy? Couldn't some of they continue commercially of tagged on to other commercial services that are profitable to help may them pay?

The services I see I would guess don't need subsidy, however I don't go out to the very rural areas in my day to day so my views don't reflect the rural areas.

 

[SWTH]

Bear in mind also that around half the passengers have concessionary travel cards. It's part of the reason fares are so expensive now, as a percentage of the average single fare is paid per concessionary pass used.

 

[richw]

Bear in mind also that around half the passengers have concessionary travel cards. It's part of the reason fares are so expensive now, as a percentage of the average single fare is paid per concessionary pass used.

Is it still the case the bus companies get only 44% of the fare when a pass is used? Just searched to find what the companies get from a pass, and all I can find is one of Mark Howarth's press releases from 2011.

 

[SWTH]

Yes, if I remember correctly it is around 43-44%. I wouldn't be surprised if the council try to cut it again.

The problem with the bus network in Cornwall is that its a very time inefficient way of traveling - if I wanted to travel to work in Summercourt from home in Perranporth (for middle shifts it would be nice to not have to use a car) I would need to catch a 591 at (for example) 0830, which would get into Summercourt at 0940 with a total journey time of 1hr 10m. If my shift doesn't start until 1030 that means wasting another 50 mins. Or I could take my car and do it in 15 mins, and be there at the right time.

As a result, the only service I use is the park & ride in Truro - and that's only to save on parking at either the hospital or in town.

 

[richw]

Yes, if I remember correctly it is around 43-44%. I wouldn't be surprised if the council try to cut it again.

The problem with the bus network in Cornwall is that its a very time inefficient way of traveling - if I wanted to travel to work in Summercourt from home in Perranporth (for middle shifts it would be nice to not have to use a car) I would need to catch a 591 at (for example) 0830, which would get into Summercourt at 0940 with a total journey time of 1hr 10m. If my shift doesn't start until 1030 that means wasting another 50 mins. Or I could take my car and do it in 15 mins, and be there at the right time.

As a result, the only service I use is the park & ride in Truro - and that's only to save on parking at either the hospital or in town.

I totally agree, even with the trains between Truro and Redruth. I finish in Truro at 5, I work a 25 min walk to the station. There is a train at 1720 and then no more until almost 1900. The train will save me around £14 a week however I am not waiting until 7pm for a train home when I can drive in 30-45 mins depending on traffic. The bus takes about the same time as driving, but is not cost effective for a full paying fare, with the bus fare costing around £1.50 a day more than my fuel costs.

The only bus I use is if I go for a drink in Truro after work with my colleagues and then I will catch one of the evening Truro - Redruth services home.
I use the P+R occasionally but if I go into Truro on a day off for shopping or dinner its just as easy and a lot cheaper to take the train and plan my day around the train times. (I have a D+C Railcard so around £2.50 return by train)

 

[LateThanNever]

Depends. Early Saturday/Sunday services are quiet, late evening services are usually quiet apart from the usual Fri/Sat upturn. Obviously a main service like the 14/18 between main population centers will be fairly busy, but I've known the 591/2 be empty regularly from 2100 onwards.

Devon seems to subsidise specific journeys on some otherwise commercial bus routes. Apparently this is unusual (and said to be not very popular with bus companies - perhaps because they have to open the books?) If Cornwall doesn't do this it probably should!

 

[Goldfish62]

Devon seems to subsidise specific journeys on some otherwise commercial bus routes. Apparently this is unusual (and said to be not very popular with bus companies - perhaps because they have to open the books?) If Cornwall doesn't do this it probably should!

It does. For example there's a Mon-Fri early morning journey on the 6 (Mousehole-Penzance) which is subsidised, while I believe the rest of the daytime service is commercial.

 

[overthewater]

Devon seems to subsidise specific journeys on some otherwise commercial bus routes. Apparently this is unusual (and said to be not very popular with bus companies - perhaps because they have to open the books?) If Cornwall doesn't do this it probably should!

Nothing unusual about subsidise for a specific journeys. Most of the time commercial operator tries to get its hands on them.

 

[richw]

It does. For example there's a Mon-Fri early morning journey on the 6 (Mousehole-Penzance) which is subsidised, while I believe the rest of the daytime service is commercial.

Nothing unusual about subsidise for a specific journeys. Most of the time commercial operator tries to get its hands on them.

There is one route in my timetable operated by a different operator in the evenings and weekends to what operate in the day. Cant remember the details or route, but First operated the week day daytime and an independent has the tender for the evenings, and weekends.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nothing unusual about subsidise for a specific journeys. Most of the time commercial operator tries to get its hands on them.

This has been the case since time in memoriam (i.e. 1986). Naturally, the main operator has an interest in securing the tendered journeys as it keeps a competitor away from that corridor and the risk of them then operating the daytime service, safe in the knowledge that they have an income already from the council! That said, the incumbent is often at an advantage as they can add on services at the start and end of day more easily (in some cases) than another operator.

In some counties, such as Wiltshire, tenders are let on a vehicle working (rather than a route by route basis). One service, the 87 Devizes - Westbury - Trowbridge, has two operators on a Saturday (Libra Travel and Wiltshire Buses) and three on Monday to Friday (Faresaver with journeys by Libra Travel and Frome Minibuses)!!!

 

[TEW]

Bearing in mind I'm speaking as someone who may very well lose their job depending on how and when services are cut, I have to say that it is daft to fund services that carry next to nobody. Everybody seems to want a bus specifically tailored to their needs, which in real life is called a taxi. "But I can't afford the cost of a taxi everywhere!" they cry, without thought or care for what it costs to operate a bus service.

The bottom line is that if the service is not financially viable by itself, how much do you subsidise it by before it becomes a waste of money?

A lot of the Penzance area services are lightly used, with lots of the passengers concessionary card holders. The buses still provide a vital link for rural communities though, and I don't think they should be cut. I'd say the main problem with buses in Cornwall is the high cost, the fares are never going to attract people out of their cars, but then the fares have to be that high to cover costs.

 

[SWTH]

I'd say the main problem with buses in Cornwall is the high cost, the fares are never going to attract people out of their cars, but then the fares have to be that high to cover costs.

And there lies the problem. Somehow, it all has to be paid for. Buses don't run on fresh air and the drivers need to be paid at least a pittance. So, back to the question; in terms of subsidy, how much is too much? At what level does the cost exceed the need to run it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The first Trident to be painted is Y437 NHK (ex-17437). Seen at Summercourt about 5 minutes ago:

 

[Goldfish62]

A lot of the Penzance area services are lightly used, with lots of the passengers concessionary card holders. The buses still provide a vital link for rural communities though, and I don't think they should be cut. I'd say the main problem with buses in Cornwall is the high cost, the fares are never going to attract people out of their cars, but then the fares have to be that high to cover costs.

But some of the Penzance services are also well used, eg, 2, 5/6, 17, 18.

The Cornish bus network has been bucking the national trend in recent years, with rising passenger numbers. This has to be at least partly down to the relatively comprehensive network. If you cut the lesser used services the danger is that the whole network becomes less attractive and modest profit makers start becoming loss makers. These then require subsidy, which is then stopped and the routes are then withdrawn and so on and so on. A never-ending downward spiral.

Therefore I don't think the argument is as straightforward as if a bus route is lightly used it should no longer be subsidised, especially in a county as poor as Cornwall.

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2013-09-18/text-of-notice-to-western-greyhound-staff/

Text of notice to Western Greyhound staff
Last updated Wed 18 Sep 2013 UK

ITV News West Country has been able to get a copy of the notice to staff at Western Greyhound, which is making drastic cuts - including closing its depot in Penzance. 12 people could lose their jobs.

“
Most of you will have read in the press that Cornwall Council's budget is under significant pressure. We have been notified that due to budget cuts, the council will be withdrawing financial suppport for a number of services, some of which are operated by Western Greyhound.

It is with regret that I therefore advise you that Western Greyhound will no longer be operating any services in the Penzance and Hayle areas (other than the summer 547), or the 530 and 56 routes, or some lightly loaded 'tendered' journeys on some other routes.

“
This will therefore mean a reduction in the number of buses in the fleet and a reduction in the number of roles. This decision by Cornwall Council in no way reflects the quality of services provided.

Western Greyhound is not the only bus operator having contracts reduced and services of other operators are also affected.

“
A formal consultation period will begin shortly for all staff affected and we are currently working on the implications of this decision from the council to withdraw financial support for services. This will be a worrying time for you but please be assured that as a company we will do everything we can to limit the impact of such a decision on employees.

We have a strong core of commercial services and we will be actively developing these routes over the coming months.

As further information becomes available, I assure you I will be in touch to keep you updated on developments
– Mark Howarth, Managing Director, Western Greyhound

 

[richw]

This will therefore mean a reduction in the number of buses in the fleet

Hasn't this already happened in way of the arson, just means WG can bank the insurance payout rather than buy new buses from it