What can you do if somebody sits on your booked seat ?

[RyanOPlasty]

Would it not be possible to introduce a penalty fare for those occupying seats for which they don't have a reservation.
The threat of enforcement may be sufficient to deter people even if the practicalities may make it difficult to implement in practice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not be possible to introduce a penalty fare for those occupying seats for which they don't have a reservation.
The threat of enforcement may be sufficient to deter people even if the practicalities may make it difficult to implement in practice.

It'd be handy if they would allow the base Penalty Fare to be charged for any minor antisocial behaviour thing like this. But it is a Byelaw offence and can be prosecuted or subject to an out of court settlement. The Byelaw maximum penalty (£100 I think) was printed on the old style paper tickets.

 

[Falcon1200]

This is easily fixed. Make all long distance trains compulsory reservations. Everyone on the train will have an allocated seat and no standing passengers.

You are perhaps, understandably, not aware of the nature of rail operations in the UK. For example, today I travelled on a Glasgow Central-London Euston train, journey time over 4 hours; However that train also provided a service between intermediate stations, eg Preston/Wigan and Wigan/Warrington, each of which is approximately a 10 minute ride; Expecting passengers to book in advance for such trips is a not feasible, or indeed necessary.

 

[kristiang85]

There does seem to be a bit of UK exceptionlism here in that "this is the way we do it, we aren't changing". I would say that for long distance, non commuting trains, maybe compulsory reservations are the way to go. It makes for a much better passenger experience for those on board, and works well in many other places. Yes it will involve a culture change, but I would happily pay more for such a service where I know even if I'm sat I won't have somebody's rear end stuck in my face in the aisle for the whole journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There does seem to be a bit of UK exceptionlism here in that "this is the way we do it, we aren't changing". I would say that for long distance, non commuting trains, maybe compulsory reservations are the way to go. It makes for a much better passenger experience for those on board, and works well in many other places. Yes it will involve a culture change, but I would happily pay more for such a service where I know even if I'm sat I won't have somebody's rear end stuck in my face in the aisle for the whole journey.

Except during disruption and possibly Reading-Paddington in the morning rush (which might be reduced a bit with reduced commuting, long 9 car 80x and the fast EMUs), this isn't a common experience on long distance trains, capacity is pretty good these days with the likes of 11 car Pendolinos. And surely you'd not want them to tell people "come back tomorrow" if their train is cancelled when you could just cram them on, even if CR was applied to the initial purchase?

I don't think anywhere in the world applies CR to commuter trains, which are the ones where that's a daily experience, because it's just not viable.

 

[kristiang85]

Except during disruption and possibly Reading-Paddington in the morning rush (which might be reduced a bit with reduced commuting, long 9 car 80x and the fast EMUs), this isn't a common experience on long distance trains, capacity is pretty good these days with the likes of 11 car Pendolinos. And surely you'd not want them to tell people "come back tomorrow" if their train is cancelled when you could just cram them on, even if CR was applied to the initial purchase?

I don't think anywhere in the world applies CR to commuter trains, which are the ones where that's a daily experience, because it's just not viable.

I never said do it on commuting trains?

And I guess you've never travelled Cross Country... especially at peak times in holidays (which I hate doing, but being married to a teacher I have to).

I just think for selected long distance services with very few stops, there should be the option to book on reservation only trains. It could work and would be popular with many.

 

[Tester]

This has happened to me on a flight. It was a lovely moment. (And lovely flight, as it turned out...)

Me too!

 

[Watershed]

There does seem to be a bit of UK exceptionlism here in that "this is the way we do it, we aren't changing". I would say that for long distance, non commuting trains, maybe compulsory reservations are the way to go. It makes for a much better passenger experience for those on board, and works well in many other places. Yes it will involve a culture change, but I would happily pay more for such a service where I know even if I'm sat I won't have somebody's rear end stuck in my face in the aisle for the whole journey.

The problem is that there are very few trains in Britain which fit your definition of "long distance, non commuting". Indeed, long distance services are increasingly used by people who are commuting part-time.

There would have to be a drastic increase in train capacity and frequency if we were to make long distance services truly reservations compulsory. The DfT simply isn't going to pay for that.

I don't think anywhere in the world applies CR to commuter trains, which are the ones where that's a daily experience, because it's just not viable.

How about Spain, France, Italy, parts of the US? I'm afraid, as bad as it is, it does happen in other countries. But that's no justification for introducing it here.

 

[kristiang85]

The problem is that there are very few trains in Britain which fit your definition of "long distance, non commuting". Indeed, long distance services are increasingly used by people who are commuting part-time.

People who are organised could do that, it's no problem. It's just not the culture here so many find it hard to imagine. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. In fact many night use trains more if they had that certainty.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are Aussie IC trains three times an hour?

Manchester-London is. That's a metro style service which very much lends itself to flexibility.

And if the trains often end up full that's inadequate capacity which is bad in and of itself. CR works fine in many European countries, but they do put the capacity out there and so trains are mostly not full even on the day.

Brisbane to Cairns, which the OP quoted, is 25 hours, a sleeper train, and runs less than once a day, which is hilarious to use as a comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never said do it on commuting trains?

And I guess you've never travelled Cross Country... especially at peak times in holidays (which I hate doing, but being married to a teacher I have to).

I just think for selected long distance services with very few stops, there should be the option to book on reservation only trains. It could work and would be popular with many.

XC just needs a fleet of 9 car 80x. There'd not be overcrowding then. It's such a simple fix.

To be fair I do avoid XC like the plague. There's just nothing nice about it.

I am surprised Lumo copped out though, they were talking about being a standalone service which would be fully CR and airline style priced, and they didn't quite do it. Presumably as ever the ORCATS raid was too much to resist.

 

[Purple Train]

I have to use XC every so often as it's the only sensible way of doing Reading-Manchester or getting to the southwest from anywhere north of Bristol. In my view, they perfectly demonstrate why compulsory reservations don't work. Either the train is too short and overcrowded (as it was yesterday, on the 12.15 from Reading - I felt very relieved from my table to myself on an 802/1), in which case compulsory reservations will cause a massive surplus of passengers who can't travel, or (if it's a pair at quieter times) there is a lot of free space. Compulsory reservations only work if every train will have as many intending passengers as seats (-1% or so) which is impossible outside a maths textbook.

 

[gshock]

I travel on trains as a train employee (often allowed to get on without paying). I will aim to sit where there is NO reservation. However I will keep looking at the display as they can of course be booked as trains move. If a reservation lands on the display, I will move myself from said seat and if there are no others available, I am standing.

In all walks of life, if somebody books a seat / anything, then that purchase should be honoured.

If somebody refuses, then the staff on board should make sure that your payment is honoured. They should move said person.


This is a societal issue not just exclusive to trains. What is wrong with people

 

[Howardh]

I've booked a seat on a Glasgow > Euston train which is likely to be very busy when I join at Wigan. If someone is in my seat but they look like they need it more than me, I'll find another, and if there isn't one sit on my case in the vestibule! or more likely just hang around the bar for the two hours it takes!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Simple - sit on their lap. Might be more comforatable than some of the seats inflicted on us these days..............

 

[Birkonian]

I always try and get on trains as early as possible to avoid the problem of confronting people sitting in my reserved seat. Early this week I suffered a delay on a London tube train and arrived at Euston later than planned. I got on the train to Liverpool and despite the carriage being only 20% occupied there was a woman in my seat. She moved without argument but why do people do this when there are so many unreserved seats available?

There is also a specific problem on Avanti whereby the reservation sometimes states 'Available if unoccupied'. This doesn't mean it is unreserved, I've seen it above my reserved seats.

 

[Falcon1200]

There is also a specific problem on Avanti whereby the reservation sometimes states 'Available if unoccupied'. This doesn't mean it is unreserved, I've seen it above my reserved seats.

I've been caught out with that one; Joined a train at origin, the seat was indeed unoccupied so I sat in it, only for the guy who had reserved it to claim it 30 seconds later! I did of course move, but why not simply show the seat as reserved from A to B?

There are also, in First Class coach K, seats shown as 'Reserved Traveller'; I once asked a member of staff what that meant but they did not know! So if no other seat is available I sit there and have never had a problem.

Only Avanti could make a hash of something which should be so simple.

 

[trainophile]

I always try and get on trains as early as possible to avoid the problem of confronting people sitting in my reserved seat. Early this week I suffered a delay on a London tube train and arrived at Euston later than planned. I got on the train to Liverpool and despite the carriage being only 20% occupied there was a woman in my seat. She moved without argument but why do people do this when there are so many unreserved seats available?

There is also a specific problem on Avanti whereby the reservation sometimes states 'Available if unoccupied'. This doesn't mean it is unreserved, I've seen it above my reserved seats.

This is all very well if you're boarding at the start of the service, but there will be many more people boarding en route at an intermediate station without the option of arriving early.

The "available if unoccupied" kicks in when a seat previously shown as reserved from *A* (from memory it doesn't actually state to where, I may be wrong there as I noticed yesterday that GWR does show reserved A-B or whatever) has passed A a while ago, having given the rightful occupant time to reach it and sit in it. I think this is fair enough.

However, recently I've noticed that Avanti's reservation system isn't always in use at all, so it becomes a free for all.

 

[Birkonian]

I've been caught out with that one; Joined a train at origin, the seat was indeed unoccupied so I sat in it, only for the guy who had reserved it to claim it 30 seconds later! I did of course move, but why not simply show the seat as reserved from A to B?

There are also, in First Class coach K, seats shown as 'Reserved Traveller'; I once asked a member of staff what that meant but they did not know! So if no other seat is available I sit there and have never had a problem.

Only Avanti could make a hash of something which should be so simple.

1st class, Coach K on an Avanti train has 18 seats. 8 of these can't be booked - saved for 'Reserved Traveller.' This includes 3 out the 4 single seats. A bit annoying.

 

[trainophile]

1st class, Coach K on an Avanti train has 18 seats. 8 of these can't be booked - saved for 'Reserved Traveller.' This includes 3 out the 4 single seats. A bit annoying.

Presumably, if no "Reserved Travellers" turn up, they can't stop you sitting in it if you have a 1st Class ticket?

 

[Birkonian]

Presumably, if no "Reserved Travellers" turn up, they can't stop you sitting in it if you have a 1st Class ticket?

Yes, I've asked politely and usually get a "Yes, of course" type of reply.

 

[Falcon1200]

1st class, Coach K on an Avanti train has 18 seats. 8 of these can't be booked - saved for 'Reserved Traveller.'

Who are these special Travellers?!!!

 

[Flying Snail]

Who are these special Travellers?!!!

Virgin/Avanti Traveller was a loyalty scheme, it has been replaced with Club Avanti ad as far as I can see this no longer has any use for these specially reserved seats.

 

[Falcon1200]

as far as I can see this no longer has any use for these specially reserved seats.

Thanks.

 

[muz379]

I think most people would accept that having standees on long distance overnight trains is undesirable. And indeed the Caledonian Sleeper has compulsory reservations.

(Nominally the Night Riviera does too, but there's a huge surplus of seats on that so in practice it doesn't, it's more like Avanti-esque fake compulsory, whereas with the CS if you rock up to the train without one you will be turned away whether any are free or not).

CS is the perfect example of what youd have to put in place if you wanted compulsory reservations with controlled access to the platforms and therefore the train to ticket holders only .

Youd have to remodel so many stations and/or have long distance only platforms

There does seem to be a bit of UK exceptionlism here in that "this is the way we do it, we aren't changing". I would say that for long distance, non commuting trains, maybe compulsory reservations are the way to go. It makes for a much better passenger experience for those on board, and works well in many other places. Yes it will involve a culture change, but I would happily pay more for such a service where I know even if I'm sat I won't have somebody's rear end stuck in my face in the aisle for the whole journey.

I cant think of many trains that fit that bill . Youd have to completely remodel the fares system and then provide trains that serve the same locations like the example of using the WCML to travel from Wigan to Preston(Actually Northern serve this but not as frequently) or Warrington .

I've been caught out with that one; Joined a train at origin, the seat was indeed unoccupied so I sat in it, only for the guy who had reserved it to claim it 30 seconds later! I did of course move, but why not simply show the seat as reserved from A to B?

There are also, in First Class coach K, seats shown as 'Reserved Traveller'; I once asked a member of staff what that meant but they did not know! So if no other seat is available I sit there and have never had a problem.

Only Avanti could make a hash of something which should be so simple.

Indeed it does seem like an over complication , display where the reservation is from and to . Helps those that might be travelling to a destination before the seat is reserved make the decision to sit in it . Also then helps people guage if the person who has reserved it has no showed meaning the seat is available .

 

[Bletchleyite]

CS is the perfect example of what youd have to put in place if you wanted compulsory reservations with controlled access to the platforms and therefore the train to ticket holders only .

Youd have to remodel so many stations and/or have long distance only platforms

I'm not advocating it, but you'd not have to do anything of the sort. You'd simply introduce a penalty for not having a reservation, e.g. a base £50 Penalty Fare. Some may of course consider that being a worthwhile price to board the train without one if it's urgent. Or taken to extremes you'd stop selling tickets without reservation entirely for the relevant routes, i.e. only sell Advances, so anyone on the wrong train would not have a valid ticket.

I know this Forum loves introducing objections to perfectly viable ideas, but plenty of countries the world over, including most notably the "Romance" style high speed rail operations, have this concept in place, including open stations with no gatelines at all, and it works just fine in those countries. It may not be a good option for the UK, but it is feasible, and demonstrably so, so no argument suggesting it isn't is valid. The arguments against it that are valid are purely those of the inconvenience vs. the guaranteed seat.

 

[Bluejays]

The 'reserved traveller'. My guess would be the seats reserved for seatfrog upgrades.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 'reserved traveller'. My guess would be the seats reserved for seatfrog upgrades.

Your guess would be wrong. It's for members of the Traveller "frequent flyer" club. That has just been renamed, but I guess changing the software takes time.

Having looked it no longer seems to be a benefit of "Club Avanti" so I suspect they'll be removed.

 

[185]

Part of the problem is the railway's current fixation on buying nasty, pokey little 5-car trains with no walk through, and 40ft wasted of the two unused cabs. At least on an 11 car Pendo there are two unreserved coaches to balance out the unreserved passengers and those not happy with the seats they've got.

 

[muz379]

I'm not advocating it, but you'd not have to do anything of the sort. You'd simply introduce a penalty for not having a reservation, e.g. a base £50 Penalty Fare. Some may of course consider that being a worthwhile price to board the train without one if it's urgent. Or taken to extremes you'd stop selling tickets without reservation entirely for the relevant routes, i.e. only sell Advances, so anyone on the wrong train would not have a valid ticket.

I was in Italy recently and took a number of journeys using Frecciarossa and did witness a group travelling with italo tickets , no such penalty was imposed because an argument ensued , the staff checking revenue left the carriage and by the time they came back the group had left the train . Never witnessed such in spain where at least in the areas I have travelled the AVE trains are seperate . Travelling in france before I have also seen a free for all even on reservation only intercity trains following disruption .

People tend to view operations in other countries through rose tinted lenses , in many cases they are not directly comparable. If we redesigned our system so it mirrored operations in those countries we could reasonably expect it to work as well as it does in those countries . But even then you are only kidding yourself if you dont acknowledge it still has its issues

It may not be a good option for the UK

This is precisely why I said that you would have to mirror CS's operation when talking about implementing in the UK today not some hypothetical world in which our railway and society mirrors those "Romance" style countries . Try and implement it with the system we have today im still getting on the reservation only Avanti to travel from Preston to Wigan , the reservation only LNER from Leeds to Wakfield or the reservation only cross country to get from Stockport to Macclesfield because its unlikely the TM or revenue are even going to get to me before I get to wigan/wakefield/Macc etc . And if they do I am reasonably sure of my ability to frustrate their efforts for 5 minutes so they cannot give me a £50 penalty . That would be the attitude people took anyway .

it isnt a valid idea in the UK at the minute .