What current train services would look different if certain railways hadn’t been closed?

[Mikey C]

Doubt it, it was single. We have done this one before, as Chiltern did look at it. The chord at Bicester makes a lot more sense considering the line from Bicester to Oxford was there.

Chiltern were looking at the line, as a closed and lifted railway which would need expensive reinstatement (and part of which is now a popular cycle path). A massively more expensive option than the Bicester chord.

This thread is about what would have happened if the line hadn't been closed. Trains would have continued to run from Princes to Oxford via Thame and Cowley, and I doubt Chiltern would have wanted a second route into Oxford.

 

[Zomboid]

And Oxford Parkway, should such a thing have been deemed necessary, would have been to the south east of the city, probably near to where the route crosses the M40 at the service station.
Though was the tunnel dug for one or two tracks?

 

[Thebaz]

An interesting exercise is to consider the railway services that exist today and take a rather convoluted route. Are there any that might look different had more direct lines axed by Beeching (and before) been retained?

Some possibilities in my neck of the woods:

Weymouth - Bristol: As normal to Yeovil Pen Mill, then reversing to YVJ and again towards Sherborne, continuing to Bristol via Templecombe West Curve, S&DJR and the Midland route from Bath Green Park to Bristol Temple Meads.

Cardiff Central - Portsmouth: As normal to Romsey, then running to Eastleigh where the train splits into separate Southampton and Portsmouth portions. Former runs to Southampton Terminus to avoid the tunnel bottleneck, while latter runs via Botley. Relieves capacity through Southampton and on the Netley Line.

London Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh: Since this service is primarily to give Fareham a direct service to London, this would have most likely taken the more direct route via Alton and the Meon Valley (most likely in place of one of the existing Alton trains). Potentially could have continued to Gosport rather than Portsmouth.

London Waterloo - Weymouth. Could make use of portions detached at Bournemouth by continuing them as services to Wimborne (via Broadstone) or Swanage. Might allow more skipping of local stations west of Bournemouth on the Weymouth portions.

Cross Country South Coast services: A few trains per day could have taken the more direct GWR railway route between Winchester and Oxford via Newbury, although with that bypassing Basingstoke and Reading, this could have had a major impact on revenue.

What other services that exist today might look different had Beeching not welded his axe?

Weymouth-Bristol... There used to be Weymouth-Salisbury via Wimborne trains so would it not have made more sense to 'extend' those?

 

[Uncle Buck]

Probably to serve Stirling and the various other places they call between Edinburgh and Perth.

So perhaps an Edinburgh to Inverness express could run up this way, but an Edinburgh to Perth stopper could run via Stirling.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

What about the viability of the branches from West Drayton to Uxbridge and Staines as either Elizabeth Line destinations or connections.?

 

[A S Leib]

What about the viability of the branches from West Drayton to Uxbridge and Staines as either Elizabeth Line destinations or connections.?

Maybe Greenford would have had improvements at the same time, with all three having 2 tph to Shenfield. I wonder what would have happened with Uxbridge to South Harefield; I think pre-Covid Chiltern had an hourly West Ruislip terminator which I'd guess would have gone to Uxbridge, but hourly wouldn't be frequent enough to compete with the Underground (even walking between Ickenham and West Ruislip or from Wembley Park or buses would probably be quicker if you've just missed a Chiltern service).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's a fairly significant one - what if Woodhead had remained open and the Hope Valley closed, as it was always stated to be one or the other? I guess places like Edale and Hope which do well with Manchester day trippers would be both smaller and have more of a car problem, while would somewhere like Tintwistle have become more of a touristy place than just a residential area as it now is? Would Peak District tourism have shifted north, perhaps primarily centred on Buxton, or would it just have become even more horribly full of cars with a few unpunctual bus services?

 

[Indigo Soup]

I wonder whether there might be twice as many trains from Glasgow to Aberdeen; an express running Stirling-Perth-Montrose via the Strathmore line, and another travelling the modern route via Dundee.

My guess is that there'd be expresses running Stirling-Perth-Montrose, and that the stoppers to Dundee wouldn't run any further north, with Dundee-Aberdeen served only by Edinburgh trains.

Edinburgh to Inverness used to run via Kinross, but this line was closed over 50 years ago and trains were diverted via Stirling. The extant Ladybank to Perth line was reopened for passenger traffic a few years later to provide a more direct route via Fife. However, through services from Edinburgh to Inverness have reverted again to the slower and more roundabout route via Stirling for reasons that are unclear to me.

I believe the Ladybank line is so painfully slow that running via Stirling is barely any slower, and lets the trains serve another large population centre. For what it's worth, I reckon the line to Perth via Kinross - being both shorter and engineered as a main line - would be enough quicker than the current route via Ladybank that Perth-Edinburgh travel would be doubled.

The great central loading gauge was hardly bigger than that used elsewhere on the network. It is a myth that it was built to a generous 'continental ' gauge.

AFAIK it's not just hardly any bigger, but actually smaller than that of some of the other lines in Great Britain.

 

[Gloster]

Weymouth-Bristol... There used to be Weymouth-Salisbury via Wimborne trains so would it not have made more sense to 'extend' those?

I have a feeling that the only train through to Weymouth left Salisbury before 04.00, but there was no return working. The train included a Waterloo-Weymouth News van.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Yes; I don't think direct Aylesbury to Chessington services have ever happened or are particularly likely to.

And "Cheddington World of Adventures" doesn't have quite the same ring to it either!

 

[jadmor]

Edinburgh to Inverness used to run via Kinross, but this line was closed over 50 years ago and trains were diverted via Stirling. The extant Ladybank to Perth line was reopened for passenger traffic a few years later to provide a more direct route via Fife. However, through services from Edinburgh to Inverness have reverted again to the slower and more roundabout route via Stirling for reasons that are unclear to me.

I believe that the reason was to allow same platform interchange at Stirling with the Glasgow service. The Glenfarg line at the time of closure didnt have much of a passengers service, just a couple of Inverness trains and a sporadic Local service Edinburgh Perth via Dunfermline. The Ladybank junction upgrade in 2014 raised the speed limit here to 75mph, and train times via this route were comparable to the Stirling route for HSTs. I don't think there are any fast passenger services now that can take advantage of this now, but at least the Perth service is now an hourly regular interval. If Glenfarg had survived, it is (just) possible that we might have seen a regular service serving Kinross, which is growing rapidly

 

[AndrewE]

And "Cheddington World of Adventures" doesn't have quite the same ring to it either!

I used to cycle out there to play as a kid, it (and the surrounding 10 miles or so) were a brilliant adventure... especially the abandoned narrow-gauge wagons on the sand quarry railway / standard gauge transfer sidings.

 

[The Planner]

And Oxford Parkway, should such a thing have been deemed necessary, would have been to the south east of the city, probably near to where the route crosses the M40 at the service station.
Though was the tunnel dug for one or two tracks?

Horspath was single.

Chiltern were looking at the line, as a closed and lifted railway which would need expensive reinstatement (and part of which is now a popular cycle path). A massively more expensive option than the Bicester chord.

This thread is about what would have happened if the line hadn't been closed. Trains would have continued to run from Princes to Oxford via Thame and Cowley, and I doubt Chiltern would have wanted a second route into Oxford.

Depends on how many trains they wanted to run.

 

[steamybrian]

My favourite is that if Uckfield- Lewes line would still be open with through trains from Uckfield direction to Brighton then train services on the Uckfield would be more heavily used. I am guessing but closure of that line would have lead to reduced patronage of the Tunbridge Wells to Eridge line closed in 1985.

 

[yorksrob]

My favourite is that if Uckfield- Lewes line would still be open with through trains from Uckfield direction to Brighton then train services on the Uckfield would be more heavily used. I am guessing but closure of that line would have lead to reduced patronage of the Tunbridge Wells to Eridge line closed in 1985.

I do wonder also whether if Three Bridges to Tunbridge Wells had remained open, some of the North Downs services would have been extended to provide a link between TW, Gatwick and the West.

Then there's the Somerset and Dorset joint. With a few amendments at Templecombe, you could have had direct services between Bournemouth/Poole and the West country.

Direct trains from Charing Cross to Bexhill, splitting at Crowhurst.

 

[Helvellyn]

Here's a fairly significant one - what if Woodhead had remained open and the Hope Valley closed, as it was always stated to be one or the other? I guess places like Edale and Hope which do well with Manchester day trippers would be both smaller and have more of a car problem, while would somewhere like Tintwistle have become more of a touristy place than just a residential area as it now is? Would Peak District tourism have shifted north, perhaps primarily centred on Buxton, or would it just have become even more horribly full of cars with a few unpunctual bus services?

If the Bakewell route had remained open as well as Woodhead (and they sorted a connection to Sheffield Midland) I think you'd have had East Anglia/East Mids to the North West via Bakewell and maybe a Lincolnshire to the North West via Woodhead service.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Personally I doubt that - Holyhead is larger and has the ferries.

Only slightly larger and Caernarfon is much more of a tourist draw as well as being a bit of an administrative centre for the region. Ferries would only come into it the odd few times a day when they run and in any case rail/sea traffic must be pretty minimal in the era of low-cost flights. Caernarfon also has the advantage of being a shorter run from Bangor.

 

[A S Leib]

Only slightly larger and Caernarfon is much more of a tourist draw as well as being a bit of an administrative centre for the region. Ferries would only come into it the odd few times a day when they run and in any case rail/sea traffic must be pretty minimal in the era of low-cost flights. Caernarfon also has the advantage of being a shorter run from Bangor.

An optimistic view would have trains joining and splitting at Bangor with both towns having services east rather than continuing to have two-carriage services all the way through to Chester.

 

[njamescouk]

Penistone to Sheffield would be 15 minutes instead of 45 via Barnsley.

Penistone to Manchester would be much quicker with no changes.

 

[HighlandStorm]

So perhaps an Edinburgh to Inverness express could run up this way, but an Edinburgh to Perth stopper could run via Stirling.

Routing via Stirling gives much better options for changing for Glasgow than Perth, with the option of using the Alloa service to Queen Street. Stirling is also a vastly preferable station to change at. Perth station is an absolute hole that needs raised to the ground.

 

[30907]

I have a feeling that the only train through to Weymouth left Salisbury before 04.00, but there was no return working. The train included a Waterloo-Weymouth News van.

Almost correct: there was a SX excursion from Salisbury in the school summer holiday period, along with one to Swanage.

If the East Devon branches (Exmouth to Tipton St Johns, Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme Regis) stayed open I suspect Exeter to Axminster, at least, would have stayed double track.

The Devon Metro might run to Sidmouth (or Seaton, which had the advantage of a better-located station, but Sidmouth has expanded dramatically past the station site even without a railway). Exmouth trains might have reversed out to Budleigh Salterton (IMO the least implausible suggestion).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only slightly larger and Caernarfon is much more of a tourist draw as well as being a bit of an administrative centre for the region. Ferries would only come into it the odd few times a day when they run and in any case rail/sea traffic must be pretty minimal in the era of low-cost flights. Caernarfon also has the advantage of being a shorter run from Bangor.

Closing Caernarfon was nuts. The line wasn't viable beyond there, but it is (other than when there are ferries) a far more sensible terminus than Holyhead because the tourist demand is way higher. I think there'd be a very good case (in Welsh terms) for reopening it even given the high cost because some of the formation has had a road plonked on it.

 

[PTR 444]

Closing Caernarfon was nuts. The line wasn't viable beyond there…

…except it’s not that far until you reach the Cambrian Coast Line. Wonder if it would have been better to keep Afon Wen - Caernarfon open and close the remaining line to Pwllheli.

 

[JKF]

The Severnside stinkliner from Brentford could run on the Pilning-Severn Beach line, saving a couple of reversals.

 

[JonathanH]

Closing Caernarfon was nuts. The line wasn't viable beyond there, but it is (other than when there are ferries) a far more sensible terminus than Holyhead because the tourist demand is way higher.

Holyhead had boat traffic, and tourism didn't sustain railways. If Caernarfon had have been kept, at what point in history would Holyhead trains have been diverted there, rather than it simply being a shuttle branch service?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If the Great Central was still open, I’ve come to imagine it as a meandering regional line rather than a north/south trunk route. I can imagine Central Trains class 170s at High Wycombe heading to Manchester calling at most stations.

 

[eldomtom2]

Closing Caernarfon was nuts.

In the case of the 1960s closures, it's a very consistent rule that the later the closure the more dubious it was. Caernarfon can't hold a candle in terms of closure-dubiousness though, in my opinion, to something like the East Lincs, which was definitely used by more passengers than quite a few of the lines that survived.

 

[778]

If the GWR route from Birmingham - Wolverhampton had not closed in the 70s, the Marleybone - Birmingham services could have been extended to Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. Wolverhampton Low Level station would probably have still closed. Also would have meant no trams in Birmingham.

 

[Uncle Buck]

If the GWR route from Birmingham - Wolverhampton had not closed in the 70s, the Marleybone - Birmingham services could have been extended to Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. Wolverhampton Low Level station would probably have still closed. Also would have meant no trams in Birmingham.

It’s interesting that many of the proposals here, such as this one, seem to be about, not intercity expresses (which would adhere to their current routes) but the next category of services, regional expresses, which would vastly enhance connectivity- which is what the modern railway appears to be working towards over raw journey times anyway.

 

[ChrisC]

If the line south of Nottingham through Old Darby to Melton Mowbray had remained open would some Sheffield and Nottingham to London trains have continued to run that way? Also would the Liverpool to Norwich trains have been routed that way to avoid them taking up paths on the ECML between Grantham and Peterborough?