What factors have made on-train catering no longer viable in most cases?

[GRALISTAIR]

I wonder if there is scope to have enterprising private individuals offer service? With permission of the TOC/other etc of course.

 

[Ken H]

I wonder if there is scope to have enterprising private individuals offer service? With permission of the TOC/other etc of course.

Settle -Carlisle development company already do this. So there is precident.

 

[Indigo Soup]

This all sounds very hi-tec.

Not really. The first is a matter of changing one setting in the payment system, which can be done in minutes as part of setting it up for the first time. The second is a little more complex, involving connecting the system to a wireless network in the train - but again, shouldn't take more than ten minutes for a competent IT department to do.

Compared to the expenses of handling cash, the risk of theft, and so forth...

You still can't do that officially on ScotRail services

Actually, I wonder if this is getting at another issue. The general decline of drinking culture has adversely impacted pubs. Why shouldn't it have impacted on-train catering as well?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, I wonder if this is getting at another issue. The general decline of drinking culture has adversely impacted pubs. Why shouldn't it have impacted on-train catering as well?

I doubt alcohol is the main thing sold from on-train catering. It's more likely to be hot drinks I'd have thought, as these can only usefully be carried on for short trips before they go cold.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I doubt alcohol is the main thing sold from on-train catering. It's more likely to be hot drinks I'd have thought, as these can only usefully be carried on for short trips before they go cold.

Certainly not the main thing sold - but I imagine the margins are higher. When people drank more, that may have made a difference.

 

[BazingaTribe]

The last thing most train companies would want is to encourage people to get blitzed in a relatively small space. I was on a football train once that turned into an odyssey when the police were called at Macclesfield for a group of rowdies even though someone else observed they would all be getting off at the next station anyway. It was kind of amusing in the end as none of them were actively violent towards their fellow passengers, but it spelled out the issues of excess alcohol mixed with an already relatively confined space and made the journey many times more complicated than it would otherwise have been.

 

[Krokodil]

I doubt alcohol is the main thing sold from on-train catering. It's more likely to be hot drinks I'd have thought, as these can only usefully be carried on for short trips before they go cold.

It's certainly profitable on a Saturday, especially if the races are on.

 

[MrJeeves]

I doubt alcohol is the main thing sold from on-train catering.

It is the best-selling product on LNER.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly not the main thing sold - but I imagine the margins are higher. When people drank more, that may have made a difference.

The last thing most train companies would want is to encourage people to get blitzed in a relatively small space. I was on a football train once that turned into an odyssey when the police were called at Macclesfield for a group of rowdies even though someone else observed they would all be getting off at the next station anyway. It was kind of amusing in the end as none of them were actively violent towards their fellow passengers, but it spelled out the issues of excess alcohol mixed with an already relatively confined space and made the journey many times more complicated than it would otherwise have been.

It's certainly a lot more expensive on the train - which suggests its marketed towards the "one-off" drinker.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Yeah, I suppose people could just BYOB.

Been reading Paul Bradley's History of the Railways and I have to chuckle at the sale of wicker basket hampers containing a range of food and drink and alcoholic beverages (one packaged with wine and one with beer). I can see a potential modern equivalent in a bento box style -- maybe Itsu could branch out with their excellent Asian food (just been there in Exeter and it's still pretty good value compared with other fast food). It might be an interesting partnership with Lumo or similar operators.

But to be honest I guess that it would still be cheaper to bring something on board with you for most journeys that I do. That way everyone can get what they want rather than what's simply available.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if there is scope to have enterprising private individuals offer service? With permission of the TOC/other etc of course.

Yes, I’ve wondered if an enterprising individual knocking out bacon rolls on a morning commuter train would make a fortune, or Someone with a few cases of Champagne on the trains to Cheltenham Festival / the Derby / the Ebor, etc.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yes, I’ve wondered if an enterprising individual knocking out bacon rolls on a morning commuter train would make a fortune, or Someone with a few cases of Champagne on the trains to Cheltenham Festival / the Derby / the Ebor, etc.

I fondly remember F&W Railtours which iirc became Pathfinders, used to have barrels of real ale on their tours. Loved it.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, I’ve wondered if an enterprising individual knocking out bacon rolls on a morning commuter train would make a fortune, or Someone with a few cases of Champagne on the trains to Cheltenham Festival / the Derby / the Ebor, etc.

By the time they've completed all the risk assessments, satisfied the food hygiene regulations, agreed a contract with the train operator .......

 

[Bletchleyite]

By the time they've completed all the risk assessments, satisfied the food hygiene regulations, agreed a contract with the train operator .......

Even at the simplest level making enough money is hard. Minimum wage is now about £12 ph, and it's generally reckoned to cost roughly twice someone's wage to employ them. Taking £24 ph on a rail trolley service sounds really rather challenging, certainly on regional services. And that's ignoring all other costs!

 

[yorksrob]

Even at the simplest level making enough money is hard. Minimum wage is now about £12 ph, and it's generally reckoned to cost roughly twice someone's wage to employ them. Taking £24 ph on a rail trolley service sounds really rather challenging, certainly on regional services. And that's ignoring all other costs!

If you were knocking out cups of tea for £1.50, I reckon that could be made back quite easily. Not much actual product cost either.

 

[BazingaTribe]

By the time they've completed all the risk assessments, satisfied the food hygiene regulations, agreed a contract with the train operator .......

Also got past the people who put the nanny in 'nanny state' saying that people shouldn't eat on trains in order to set a good example to children in danger of obesity issues. The BBC website, that gem of news-covering that also covered 'commuters complain about smoothie shortage' when returning to work after lockdown, backpedaled on both stories when I assume their request for opinions and stories resulted in the air turning blue from hungry commuters in the first case and those who had been in-person throughout in the second...

I suppose I grew up with too much Fergal Keane on the radio and am rebelling against that sort of champagne socialist who these days probably hasn't left the house in several weeks, but 'is there nothing else to write about?!' springs to mind. I suspect if bacon sandwiches on the morning train became a thing, then the vegans would have a field day.

A few hygiene rules seem trivial in comparison...

 

[RT4038]

If you were knocking out cups of tea for £1.50, I reckon that could be made back quite easily. Not much actual product cost either.

But £24 every hour, even the time waiting for the train to arrive, the layover times, the empty early morning or evening hours.? The hours you can't get the trolley up the train because it is too crowded, the hour that the staff member doesn't make much effort because you're not on their back etc etc.

 

[Anonymous10]

Can we start cooking more things with boiling water? Should not be too hard to have a boiler on board. In other countries they let the public use the boiling water taps , but I can see how that might be too risky for the UK. The requisite dehydrated products do not take up much space and a big stack of containers to serve would be doable as well. People could even bring their own pot noodles (many other brands are available), or specialty tea if they are so minded.

I take my own food and drink for my trips with TfW. No benefit to paying train prices even on a 4-hour trip.

I find myself partial to a hot chocolate and a barabrith mind.

 

[yorksrob]

But £24 every hour, even the time waiting for the train to arrive, the layover times, the empty early morning or evening hours.? The hours you can't get the trolley up the train because it is too crowded, the hour that the staff member doesn't make much effort because you're not on their back etc etc.

To be fair, the trolleys I know of don't tend to serve the evenings.

 

[RT4038]

To be fair, the trolleys I know of don't tend to serve the evenings.

I think the problem is that you are paying the £24hr no matter what activity the trolley is doing (filling up the urns, waiting for train, layover at destination, cleaning on return, completing waybills etc) and inevitably some of the trains won't be well loaded. On top you've got to pay for the administration - stock ordering, refills. Can't sell much approaching a station, because the trolley has got to be out of the way, can't sell much at busy time because trolley can't get through. And because you're only paying minimum wage the calibre of staff will be patchy and we've all seen some sitting down or keeping out of the way.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the problem is that you are paying the £24hr no matter what activity the trolley is doing (filling up the urns, waiting for train, layover at destination, cleaning on return, completing waybills etc) and inevitably some of the trains won't be well loaded. On top you've got to pay for the administration - stock ordering, refills. Can't sell much approaching a station, because the trolley has got to be out of the way, can't sell much at busy time because trolley can't get through. And because you're only paying minimum wage the calibre of staff will be patchy and we've all seen some sitting down or keeping out of the way.

That's true to an extent. TPE seem to manage, and I imagine there must be other busy regional routes that could support it.

 

[RT4038]

That's true to an extent. TPE seem to manage, and I imagine there must be other busy regional routes that could support it.

We don't know whether it is profitable for them or not?

 

[yorksrob]

We don't know whether it is profitable for them or not?

I doubt they'd be continuing with them if they didn't provide some sort of benefit to the operation.

 

[43066]

We don't know whether it is profitable for them or not?

I doubt they'd be continuing with them if they didn't provide some sort of benefit to the operation.

Rail Gourmet seem to do good business in standard class where I am (intercity, but with most journeys only just over two hours max). I don’t know whether it turns a profit in its own right, or is subsidised by the TOC, but there’s also a need to provide an environment people like to travel in, and indeed there are often complaints when no refreshments are available, even on those relatively short journeys.

Similarly the dedicated customer host for first class passengers is retained, who presumably are seen to have a benefit based on the fact the role has been continued throughout the privatisation period.

 

[yorksrob]

Rail Gourmet seem to do good business in standard class where I am (intercity, but with most journeys only just over two hours max). I don’t know whether it turns a profit in its own right, or is subsidised by the TOC, but there’s also a need to provide an environment people like to travel in, and indeed there are often complaints when no refreshments are available, even on those relatively short journeys.

Similarly the dedicated customer host for first class passengers is retained, who presumably are seen to have a benefit based on the fact the role has been continued throughout the privatisation period.

I agree, the provision of the trolly does help to provide a good travelling environment. I expect they'd make more money from people with a bit more "pile em high, sell em cheap" in terms of hot drinks.

 

[Bald Rick]

By the time they've completed all the risk assessments, satisfied the food hygiene regulations, agreed a contract with the train operator .......

I was assuming an, ahem, ‘enterprising’ vendor, on an unofficial basis.

Even at the simplest level making enough money is hard. Minimum wage is now about £12 ph, and it's generally reckoned to cost roughly twice someone's wage to employ them. Taking £24 ph on a rail trolley service sounds really rather challenging, certainly on regional services. And that's ignoring all other costs!

Depends on your market and margin. You would easily shift 5 cases of champagne on a service to the races, and clear £25 a bottle profit.. that’s £750 to cover your staff costs and profit. And the ticket of course. Obviously only doable about 3-4 times a year!

 

[deltic]

My understanding is that train catering has not made a direct profit for a long time. British Rail InterCity provided catering to attract first class passengers who may otherwise have flown or driven but its whole catering operation was loss making. Third parties were sometimes paid to provide trolley catering on regional services. Now that there are a range of high street retailers in major stations selling a wider range of food and drink that can be stocked on board there is even less demand for on-board catering. Travelling recently on Aventi from Carlisle to London it was disappointing to see how poor the catering offering was. The move to offering "free" food in first class rather than providing a limited choice of paid for meals to all passengers probably loses operators more money.

 

[yorksrob]

My understanding is that train catering has not made a direct profit for a long time. British Rail InterCity provided catering to attract first class passengers who may otherwise have flown or driven but its whole catering operation was loss making. Third parties were sometimes paid to provide trolley catering on regional services. Now that there are a range of high street retailers in major stations selling a wider range of food and drink that can be stocked on board there is even less demand for on-board catering. Travelling recently on Aventi from Carlisle to London it was disappointing to see how poor the catering offering was. The move to offering "free" food in first class rather than providing a limited choice of paid for meals to all passengers probably loses operators more money.

I certainly preferred the paid for, reasonably priced meals on EMR 1st class than free offerings.

 

[Meerkat]

I wonder if there is scope to have enterprising private individuals offer service? With permission of the TOC/other etc of course.

Trouble is that most of the suitable services probably already have a trolley contract with one of the majors.

Otherwise I could see a cafe near a station that has to staff commute and lunch anyway might be able to afford someone on the trains in the morning whose cost was spread across the business rather than needing train business to cover all employment costs.
On at the local station, off at a sensible distance, and then jump on a return train. Card only so they can get through quickly and no cash security issues.
A couple of Deliveroo style bags with a limited range (sausage roll or pasty/pie, two or three types of sandwiches, homemade cake, bottles of water and fizz maybe).
Get an online reputation and it might work - the product is good enough that you "must" try one if you take that train, and regulars wont be able to resist when its no effort.

Really it would need GBR to facilitate it - a template procedure to apply with the boxes to be ticked (what insurance you need, how you prove that and your hygiene etc etc), and a template process to make it easy for the food bods and the train companies and staff to know what can be done and how. Good politics - support local business, make public transport nicer etc.

What railway specific training would a seller need?

 

[paul1609]

I wonder if there is scope to have enterprising private individuals offer service? With permission of the TOC/other etc of course.

A group of commuters formed a company "Grub on the Go" to run a trolley service on the Hastings to Charing Cross Line when Southeastern withdrew their own in house services in about 2012. Unfortunately they could never get it to cover its costs. `I believe a fairly major issue was weekend engineering works and blockades where they received no income and still had to pay the staff.