What factors have made on-train catering no longer viable in most cases?

[Bletchleyite]

If there's no need, you don't need to get any from anywhere.

Consumer choice maybe? Ease? Service? Heaven forbid, a service could be provided! Or people travelling South of Birmingham to Liverpool.

I grew up in times when catering on trains was a service, not just to make money.

The main thing that I think has driven the move away from on-train catering is coffee. Coffee is by far the biggest seller for those wishing to travel on trains, and we've moved from accepting instant muck in a plastic or polystyrene cup to insisting on quality espresso based drinks over the past 20 years. There are options like filter cups, but people not buying hot drinks on board because better quality ones can be bought before boarding on journeys too short to require more than one has completely killed the market, alongside the minimum wage which has made the staff cost of someone just selling the odd Mars bar too expensive.

It also might be viable on long rural routes where stations tend not to have any sort of facilities - think the likes of the West of England SWR services?

Any other thoughts on why, and if it could be made more viable again?

 

[Lewisham2221]

What factors have made on-train catering no longer viable in most cases?​

By its nature, on-board catering generally offers limited choice, questionable quality and poor value for money. Obviously Intercity type stock with a proper shop/buffet car can offer more, but a trolley service is limited by the space available on the trolley. They've got no ability to keep things warm or cold for any length of time, so everything apart from hot drinks ends up at ambient temperature. I don't fancy buying a warm can of lager for far more than I could pay for a cold pint in Wetherspoons. If I was relying on at-seat catering, I'd likely want some sort of "proper" food, not just a chocolate bar, bag of crisps or some sweets.

Which leads into my next point. These days there's an absolute abundance of food and drink options in even the smallest of towns. This includes options for buying food and drink to take onto the train or simply options to eat/drink both immediately before and after the journey. Even Poundland offers a £3 meal deal. There are branches of Gregg's/Subway/Starbucks/Costa absolutely everywhere. Many convenience stores offer a range of sandwiches and snacks and some sort of coffee machine.

I don't drink the stuff, but I can understand how somebody doing, say, Liverpool to Norwich might want another cup (or two) of coffee en-route, even if they'd brought one on-board with them. Outside of that, I'd say trolley sales are more of either a distress purchase for those who were less prepared, or an impulse purchase for those who wouldn't otherwise have purchased anything, but see a trolley of cans and packets going past and feel the desire to grab something.

As for improvements? Maybe not possible with existing rolling stock, but on new stock perhaps something similar to the catering cupboard on the 197s. Can take up less space than a traditional buffet/shop counter but could still provide a combination of ambient storage, fridge and either a microwave or hot cabinet. With a roaming host and/or at seat web ordering. You could still restock en-route, so it wouldn't need to be huge, but it would enable you to sell genuinely cold drinks, things like sandwiches or pasta pots and hot options - even just something basic like burgers/hot dogs, pizza/toastie slices and maybe sausage rolls or similar; the sort of stuff you might find in a Co-op/Spar hot cabinet.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm very skeptical that most British size trains can carry enough passengers to generate the business required for even a compact catering installation to justify its existence.

The wages of staff, unless you want to use the train guard as a barrista, will end up driving the effective cost of all items sold through the roof. They can't possibly sell enough stuff to the relative handful of people on board the train, especially once you consider the opportunity cost of the space the catering installation will occupy that could have been more seats.
If we had 400m long 1100 seat trainsets it might be different, but we don't really have that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The wages of staff, unless you want to use the train guard as a barrista

This of course is how the economics of on-board service on planes is different from trains. The cabin crew are required by law, and have basically nothing to do between take-off and landing unless an emergency occurs, so they're free labour for the trolley service, effectively. Whereas on a train you need an extra member of staff. Even with a Lumo style "DOO with stewards" arrangement you need more than if they didn't do food/drink service.

 

[RT4038]

The main thing that I think has driven the move away from on-train catering is coffee. Coffee is by far the biggest seller for those wishing to travel on trains, and we've moved from accepting instant muck in a plastic or polystyrene cup to insisting on quality espresso based drinks over the past 20 years. There are options like filter cups, but people not buying hot drinks on board because better quality ones can be bought before boarding on journeys too short to require more than one has completely killed the market, alongside the minimum wage which has made the staff cost of someone just selling the odd Mars bar too expensive.

It also might be viable on long rural routes where stations tend not to have any sort of facilities - think the likes of the West of England SWR services?

Any other thoughts on why, and if it could be made more viable again?

(a) too expensive to staff consistently.
(b) lack of consistency- so trains do, some don't, some have catering some of the time, but not necessarily available (d). Buy before you board.
(c) cost of rolling stock and pressure on fares revenue means that bespoke space for sales not justified.
(d) too much overcrowding means trolley can't get down train, so even if catering is there many pax can't actually use it.
(e) trolley means no boiling water, so drink quality not so good. Buy better before you board.
(f) insufficient possible turnover causes higher prices - can't possibly carry enough stock and variety of stock to cater for modern tastes and make enough margin to pay wages. Buy better before you board.
(g) faster trains, shorter journeys. Buy before you board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People just want something wet and warm for the journey.

This is demonstrably not the case any more. People these days want quality espresso based coffee drinks or tea made with actually boiling water, and a better selection of food than a couple of types of sandwich which have probably sold out by the time it gets to you.

The massively upgraded quality of station catering, particularly in large stations, has rendered the trolley a bit pointless other than on "long thin" rural routes where station facilities are lacking or on very long InterCity routes like the Penzances and London-Scotlands where you'll likely want more than one and might tolerate the second one being instant.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think price for 1 which generally Ive found to be double your typical shop for a can of pop.

Also I reckon lack of corridor connections on Transpennine services, must have hampered a bit considering it restricts the potential market to half of the service.

 

[Foxhunter]

(a) too expensive to staff consistently.
(b) ....

(h) The ready availability of high capacity insulated travel mugs. Your coffee fill lasts much longer.

 

[The exile]

For me it’s a) cost vs selection and b) reliability (not only whether it’s on offer at all but also having to rely on when the trolley actually reaches me). Of course, diminishing journey times (coupled with the fact that I make fewer long-distance train journeys than in the past) and flexibility of off train catering play their part as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(h) The ready availability of high capacity insulated travel mugs. Your coffee fill lasts much longer.

Not too sure about that. I took a flask of coffee every day when I commuted over 20 years ago!

 

[mike57]

Also I would add that as a tea drinker the fact that trolleys dont have boiling water makes for an insipid cup of tea. Where there is a proper catering vehicle the water tends to hotter so makes a better cup of tea.

In the days when trains had proper restaurant cars I would often eat a proper meal on the way home, nowadays with just a trolley I tend to buy some sort of takeaway 'meal' before joining the train if I am looking at a two to three hour journey into early evening, less appetising in most cases, but its all part of the declining standards of passenger comfort which has been touched on in other threads.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I do like a trolley but also get a bit annoyed at different TOC policies, some want my cash and others are cashless it makes it a bit tricky for knowing when and what. Also the uncertainty when they will appear, I had a Norwich>Stratford journey in the summer and the trolley didn't get to me till we were inside the London boundary so at that point I had to just put what I got in my bag.

Another point, inconsistencies some trains do and others do not. I on occasion have to travel on XC voyagers and even if there is a trolley they'll be trapped in a vestibule at one of the pointy ends of the train. Turbostars ain't as bad but it's luck of the draw. Also the new XC cups are awful for hot drinks.

Emr tend to have friendly trolley staff if not shoved in somewhere inaccessible,

Avanti/LNER/Grand Central rely on buffets but again suffer when busy.

GWR keep having urn issues when I take them so unfortunately no coffee but I did get a nice G&T last trolley purchase I did with them,

Overall the proliferation of various outlets means your better getting supplies before your journey but there is a certain charm of buying a snack on board, similar to getting a ticket from a guard on a rural line.

 

[RT4038]

This of course is how the economics of on-board service on planes is different from trains. The cabin crew are required by law, and have basically nothing to do between take-off and landing unless an emergency occurs, so they're free labour for the trolley service, effectively. Whereas on a train you need an extra member of staff. Even with a Lumo style "DOO with stewards" arrangement you need more than if they didn't do food/drink service.

Also it is not allowed to take hot drinks onto 'planes, and the food in the airport is very expensive and security a hassle to bring in from outside [I know you could , but usually people don't]

This is demonstrably not the case any more. People these days want quality espresso based coffee drinks or tea made with actually boiling water, and a better selection of food than a couple of types of sandwich which have probably sold out by the time it gets to you.

I'm in the @yorksrob camp of 'wet and warm' , but I accept that an increasing number of people are not, and this will impinge upon sales, because trolleys cannot cope with a large variety of stock, nor complex equipment to dispense it. Gone are the days when a trolley with a huge urn dispensing tea supplied from a railway Refreshment room, and prepacked pork pies and fruit cake, catered for the tastes of just about everyone! (although I could still easily cope with that).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also it is not allowed to take hot drinks onto 'planes

Depends on the airline. easyJet permit it as long as it's got a lid. Ryanair I believe don't.

Most people think you can't, though, which provides them a marketing advantage.

 

[HSTEd]

I honestly think that instead of attempting to provide catering on trains, it would be better to try to increase the number of stations where a catering service of a reasonable standard is provided.

Staffing a station is likely to be very expensive, but still going to be cheaper than providing an on train service. After all a very large fraction of passenger journeys pass through a relatively small number of stations.
Again, unless we use this as a method of cutting through the Gordian knot of rail staffing and use the required on board staff to man a buffet! (Door panels behind the buffet counter!)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Trolley food/drink just isn’t very good - it’s worse than you’d get at a station M&S and costs more.

Buffet food can be ok, but if you’re travelling solo, you either need to cart your belongings with you when you walk to the buffet, or risk someone half-inching them at the next station. (Or just taking your seat.)

Compare to Eurostar or many TGVs, where the train might go two or three hours between stops so there’s more opportunity to safely go to the buffet.

 

[yorksrob]

This is demonstrably not the case any more. People these days want quality espresso based coffee drinks or tea made with actually boiling water, and a better selection of food than a couple of types of sandwich which have probably sold out by the time it gets to you.

The massively upgraded quality of station catering, particularly in large stations, has rendered the trolley a bit pointless other than on "long thin" rural routes where station facilities are lacking or on very long InterCity routes like the Penzances and London-Scotlands where you'll likely want more than one and might tolerate the second one being instant.

On the contrary, I think there's need on a longish regional journey of a couple of hours.

Teabags of a decent strength can be easily provided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

I honestly think that instead of attempting to provide catering on trains, it would be better to try to increase the number of stations where a catering service of a reasonable standard is provided.

Staffing a station is likely to be very expensive, but still going to be cheaper than providing an on train service. After all a very large fraction of passenger journeys pass through a relatively small number of stations.
Again, unless we use this as a method of cutting through the Gordian knot of rail staffing and use the required on board staff to man a buffet! (Door panels behind the buffet counter!)

It's not really practical for those travelling a longish distance.

 

[wilbers]

Is there any reason a TOC hasn't tried a vending machine on trains in the UK (unless they have without me knowing about it)? Reduces staff costs to refilling it rather than being there all the time, takes up less space on the train albeit likely with a small selection of items.

I can see why longer distance operators are more likely to be able to justify having an actual person there, very short journeys (says routes up to about an hour) don't justify having anything, but for those middling distance routes (in Northern land, say one like the Blackpool-Liverpool route) then why not?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Is there any reason a TOC hasn't tried a vending machine on trains in the UK (unless they have without me knowing about it)? Reduces staff costs to refilling it rather than being there all the time, takes up less space on the train albeit likely with a small selection of items.

I can see why longer distance operators are more likely to be able to justify having an actual person there, very short journeys (says routes up to about an hour) don't justify having anything, but for those middling distance routes (in Northern land, say one like the Blackpool-Liverpool route) then why not?

I can see the lack of space

the complications of modifying a train

getting permission to modify someone elses train

taking a train out of service

They would rather just fine PAX for additional revenue

 

[edwin_m]

I can see the lack of space

the complications of modifying a train

getting permission to modify someone elses train

taking a train out of service

They would rather just fine PAX for additional revenue

For those that remember BR catering in the 80s, just a thought that occurred to me...

We've repaced MaxPAX (a bit of powder pre-packed in a cup "almost but not quite, entirely unlike tea" or coffee) with Max PAX (fill all space with people so there's nowhere to stow a trolley and even if there is one it can't get down the train).

 

[Carlisle]

. These days there's an absolute abundance of food and drink options in even the smallest of towns.

Certainly not everywhere, a lot of medium to large supermarkets appear to have disappeared from town & city centres towards the periphery in recent years so if there’s no Local or Metro equivalent nearby your out of luck.

 

[Topological]

Can we start cooking more things with boiling water? Should not be too hard to have a boiler on board. In other countries they let the public use the boiling water taps , but I can see how that might be too risky for the UK. The requisite dehydrated products do not take up much space and a big stack of containers to serve would be doable as well. People could even bring their own pot noodles (many other brands are available), or specialty tea if they are so minded.

I take my own food and drink for my trips with TfW. No benefit to paying train prices even on a 4-hour trip.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm very skeptical that most British size trains can carry enough passengers to generate the business required for even a compact catering installation to justify its existence.

The wages of staff, unless you want to use the train guard as a barrista, will end up driving the effective cost of all items sold through the roof. They can't possibly sell enough stuff to the relative handful of people on board the train, especially once you consider the opportunity cost of the space the catering installation will occupy that could have been more seats.
If we had 400m long 1100 seat trainsets it might be different, but we don't really have that.

Doesn't have to be 400m, plenty of European trains are 200m long and come with a Bordrestaurant or equivalent. If I'm travelling to Scotland I should be able to get a proper meal (if only reheated rather than cooked fresh).

For regional express services, SOB Traversos are only 150m long and have two bistro vending machines (picture linked).

Kaffee und Tee im Zug – Südostbahn-Bistro – SOB

Kaufen sie einen Gutschein für zwei Heissgetränke nach Wahl (Kaffee, Tee, Schokolade). Einlösbar in den SOB-Bistros. Jetzt kaufen!

unterwegs.sob.ch

Deals with all of the complaints listed in this thread quite well.

 

[MrJeeves]

Denmark's national operator DSB has vending machines in a lot of their trains, offering a variety of cold drinks, as well as (on some services) a member of staff who walks through the train with a huge 7-11 backpack that carries boiling water for any hot drinks as well as a tray of snacks. Not quite as good as a coffee machine, of course, but better than having nothing on offer.

Nyd drikkevarer og snacks på din togtur | DSB

I InterCity- eller InterCityLyn-tog kan du købe kolde drikke ved indgangen i toget. I udvalgte Lyntog kan du købe kaffe, snacks og kolde drikke.

www.dsb.dk

 

[Bald Rick]

For those that remember BR catering in the 80s, just a thought that occurred to me...

We've repaced MaxPAX (a bit of powder pre-packed in a cup "almost but not quite, entirely unlike tea" or coffee) with Max PAX (fill all space with people so there's nowhere to stow a trolley and even if there is one it can't get down the train).

Gold medal for that Sir.

 

[Ken H]

Doesn't have to be 400m, plenty of European trains are 200m long and come with a Bordrestaurant or equivalent. If I'm travelling to Scotland I should be able to get a proper meal (if only reheated rather than cooked fresh).

For regional express services, SOB Traversos are only 150m long and have two bistro vending machines (picture linked).

Kaffee und Tee im Zug – Südostbahn-Bistro – SOB

Kaufen sie einen Gutschein für zwei Heissgetränke nach Wahl (Kaffee, Tee, Schokolade). Einlösbar in den SOB-Bistros. Jetzt kaufen!

unterwegs.sob.ch

Deals with all of the complaints listed in this thread quite well.

Coin op machines fail to work properly on a moving train. They tried 30 years ago I think. Cashless may work but then you have a smaller customer base.

 

[Krokodil]

Coin op machines fail to work properly on a moving train. They tried 30 years ago I think. Cashless may work but then you have a smaller customer base.

Less of an issue than it used to be, most people use contactless these days.

 

[edwin_m]

Coin op machines fail to work properly on a moving train. They tried 30 years ago I think. Cashless may work but then you have a smaller customer base.

With the spread of contactless and increased use since Covid, I doubt making it card only would limit the clientele very much, and not handling cash makes one less thing to go wrong. But the problems of a fixed buffet counter mostly also apply to vending machines.

 

[HSTEd]

With the spread of contactless and increased use since Covid, I doubt making it card only would limit the clientele very much, and not handling cash makes one less thing to go wrong. But the problems of a fixed buffet counter mostly also apply to vending machines.

I guess you could do a reasonable trade in things like cans of soft drinks - which have little worry about handling or temperature control in transit (serve cold but otherwise don't care).

 

[Krokodil]

But the problems of a fixed buffet counter mostly also apply to vending machines.

Except for the big one - buffet counters can't open without staff. No staff means no service, which means people who go hungry as a result will pre-load before boarding next time. And when you do have staff they need paying, regardless of whether they're actually selling anything or not.