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What happens if HS2 Euston proves to be unbuildable?

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Sad Sprinter

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Multi billion pound investments are not made on probables.

I do wonder if that's why Britain has been held back on so much infrastructure spending in the past 70 years. Perhaps we don't pay enough attention to the vision and the idea of the project but often go with the option that is least anxiety inducing to Treasury - which is often "do nothing".
 
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SynthD

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I do wonder if that's why Britain has been held back on so much infrastructure spending in the past 70 years. Perhaps we don't pay enough attention to the vision and the idea of the project but often go with the option that is least anxiety inducing to Treasury - which is often "do nothing".
When you sell debt in open markets, you must be sensible. Five years is the maximum forecast anyone relevant to getting something done cares about. Together, it adds up to inevitable lack of action.
 

HSTEd

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Sorry what do you mean here?
Projects that don't deliver benefits until after the next election don't get built very often.

They go with sticking plaster which are extremely expensive in the long term to avoid spending on anything that won't get them votes in the next election.

Infrastructure has to beat the triple lock or the eternal "more money for the NHS".
 

Bald Rick

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Build a raised walkway from St Pancras to Euston with travelator (as in many airports).

As per discussion on the previous thread - whilst technically possible it would be deeply unpopular with the residents of the streets it would have to be routed on.
 

Sad Sprinter

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We don't do long term.
You mean we choose not to. Because it is a choice. We can either dream big and change the world for the better with our visions, or we can be weak and pathetic and choose to do nothing.

Yes, I still think the lack of HS1/HS2 link is astonishing - ruling out forever that one day the people of the country might see the benefits of direct trains to Europe from north of London just because its not a priority at the present moment. We don't build infrastructure because we believe that it should be there as civic imperative, we build once the costs of not doing so outweigh the costs of doing so, which can take decades.
 

zwk500

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Yes, I still think the lack of HS1/HS2 link is astonishing - ruling out forever that one day the people of the country might see the benefits of direct trains to Europe from north of London just because its not a priority at the present moment.
No, it's because the market for such travel is always going to be marginal at best. Especially as the political changes that would be required to make it feasible were unlikely to happen in the next 100 years when the decision was made and have only declined since.
We don't build infrastructure because we believe that it should be there as civic imperative, we build once the costs of not doing so outweigh the costs of doing so, which can take decades.
So we should just build stuff for pride, regardless of how tiny the benefit may be? Out of interest, do you support or oppose the Lower Thames Crossing, which is a comparable piece of road infrastructure to a HS1/2 link.
 

Bald Rick

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No, it's because the market for such travel is always going to be marginal at best. Especially as the political changes that would be required to make it feasible were unlikely to happen in the next 100 years when the decision was made and have only declined since.

Indeed.

The only way that a viable market for such trains could exist is if the U.K. joined Schengen and security checks for the tunnel were removed. Now, whilst I personally fully support both courses of action, I am in a smallish minority in this country and I can’t see that changing for a couple of decades at best.
 

adamedwards

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I do wonder if that's why Britain has been held back on so much infrastructure spending in the past 70 years. Perhaps we don't pay enough attention to the vision and the idea of the project but often go with the option that is least anxiety inducing to Treasury - which is often "do nothing".
We have a political system which fails to build consensus around national projects and even when it does, like with HS2, there is nothing to stop the current ministers meddling with the plans and adding costs. Germany and France do much better at agreeing projects and then letting the engineers get on with them.

The Euston station debacle is down largely to ministers changing their minds on what is wanted and causing millions to then have to be spent on endless redesigning. (11 platforms to 10 then changing the plans to allow offices on top of the station, so all the foundations have to be made stronger and designs changed to put much thicker pillars into the platforms.)
 

Bald Rick

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Germany and France do much better at agreeing projects and then letting the engineers get on with them.

I wouldn’t say that. They do more of it, but they take an age to agree them before starting construction, and the Germans famously aren’t too clever at the construction bit either.
 

stuu

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I wouldn’t say that. They do more of it, but they take an age to agree them before starting construction, and the Germans famously aren’t too clever at the construction bit either.
Indeed. The Mannheim-Frankfurt high speed line was declared critical in 1993. No one will be using it any time soon
 

Chester1

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True but it will probably be needed in the future if Britain is to meet its climate targets and shift more air journeys to rail, especially if some of the travel barriers put up by Brexit can be removed.

Yes, I still think the lack of HS1/HS2 link is astonishing - ruling out forever that one day the people of the country might see the benefits of direct trains to Europe from north of London just because its not a priority at the present moment. We don't build infrastructure because we believe that it should be there as civic imperative, we build once the costs of not doing so outweigh the costs of doing so, which can take decades.

These are emotional / belief based arguments that don't reflect the poor business case. The air market for point to point journeys from Birmingham, Manchester, East Midlands and Leeds to Paris, Brussels, Rotterdam and Amsterdam is a very small proportion of UK aviation. The current number of flights isn't that big and a large proportion of passengers to Paris and Amsterdam are transfering onto long haul flights. I know for people who are keen on European intergration it sounds lovely to be able to jump on a train in Manchester or Birmingham and arrive in Paris but the money necessary to build the infrastructure would be much better spent on other decarbonisation. Spending a couple of billion pounds on decarbonising a dozen flights a day would be incredibly wasteful.
 

The Ham

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So we should just build stuff for pride, regardless of how tiny the benefit may be? Out of interest, do you support or oppose the Lower Thames Crossing, which is a comparable piece of road infrastructure to a HS1/2 link.

There are differences with the Lower Thames Crossing - not least the likely need to upgrade roads in Kent to cater for the extra traffic.

Personally IF We're going to link HS1 and HS2 it's a future project, but not directly linked. I've previously suggested that HS East Coast repeats the pattern of HS1 & HS2 with a outer London station (Stratford and OOC) and then when you build HS Wales and West you connect the three together (services end at Stratford) to provide an easy interchange between domestic and international lines.

It also overcomes the Passport issue as you do passport checks on dedicated international services or to access dedicated international platforms.

Of course it would be costly, but you would have other benefits (interchange for travel between, say, Cardiff and Cambridge) which would aid on the other side of the ledger.
 

Chester1

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There are differences with the Lower Thames Crossing - not least the likely need to upgrade roads in Kent to cater for the extra traffic.

Personally IF We're going to link HS1 and HS2 it's a future project, but not directly linked. I've previously suggested that HS East Coast repeats the pattern of HS1 & HS2 with a outer London station (Stratford and OOC) and then when you build HS Wales and West you connect the three together (services end at Stratford) to provide an easy interchange between domestic and international lines.

It also overcomes the Passport issue as you do passport checks on dedicated international services or to access dedicated international platforms.

Of course it would be costly, but you would have other benefits (interchange for travel between, say, Cardiff and Cambridge) which would aid on the other side of the ledger.

There is absolutely no prospect of a HS Wales and West or HS East coast. No government is going to touch high speed rail in UK for at least a generation after completion of HS2. Its been hugely problematic for the coalition government, then the conservative only governments and will likely be a problem for any governments during rest of 2020s and 2030s. Lets be generous and say HS2 is completed by 2040, why would a government in 2040s look at a 30 year debacle and think lets open up that can of worms again?!
 

AM9

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There is absolutely no prospect of a HS Wales and West or HS East coast. No government is going to touch high speed rail in UK for at least a generation after completion of HS2. Its been hugely problematic for the coalition government, then the conservative only governments and will likely be a problem for any governments during rest of 2020s and 2030s. Lets be generous and say HS2 is completed by 2040, why would a government in 2040s look at a 30 year debacle and think lets open up that can of worms again?!
It depends on whether HS2's success is obvious to a majority of the population.
 

Chester1

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It depends on whether HS2's success is obvious to a majority of the population.

So far 2026 from Euston to Birmingham Lichfield has turned into (at best) 2030 OOC to Birmingham and 2032 OOC to Lichfield. Its not looking like a success. If it looks successful upon completion it doesn't follow that a new line would be worth it from an economic or political perspective. There are likely to be better, lower risk, transportation and decarbonisation projects to fund. If you gave MPs the option to go back in time and go for campaign to protect rural England's 2009 proposal to have lines from London to Rugby and Leicester (hugging motorway) then most would take it. Id like HS2 to be a success but unless it is turned around very soon then future HS lines are a fantasy.
 

The Ham

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So far 2026 from Euston to Birmingham Lichfield has turned into (at best) 2030 OOC to Birmingham and 2032 OOC to Lichfield. Its not looking like a success. If it looks successful upon completion it doesn't follow that a new line would be worth it from an economic or political perspective. There are likely to be better, lower risk, transportation and decarbonisation projects to fund. If you gave MPs the option to go back in time and go for campaign to protect rural England's 2009 proposal to have lines from London to Rugby and Leicester (hugging motorway) then most would take it. Id like HS2 to be a success but unless it is turned around very soon then future HS lines are a fantasy.

There's only so many upgrades you can make to the existing rail network, we've made a significant number of them (or will have by 2040). That limits what you can do there.

At some point that means new lines.

Given that a lot of the capacity constraints are within the urban areas, if we wish to increase capacity chances are that's likely to mean tunnels of some variety. Now that could tunnels for your metro services to allow your long distance services to use the existing stations (like would happen with Crossrail 2 allowing Southampton, Salisbury, and others to see more frequent services into Waterloo). Alternatively you look at copying HS2 and building new lines into the urban areas.

The issue with the former is that you potentially limit your train lengths OR you reduce capacity by needing longer sections (not necessarily a bad thing as it'll give you a bit more resilience as you'll not be quite so right) for the longer trains OR it costs to resignal the area (again not necessarily a bad thing, as it could be part of your digital signals which aren't fixed blocks which then gives you more capacity).

You also potentially have to build more tunnels, (now that could be justified because of the improvements to the metro services) as the metro lines would probably need to connect to several different areas rather than one or two (if its a through route). Whilst the tunnel size could be smaller for metro lines, there's a school of thought that you build one larger tunnel and double stack the lines (say eastbound above westbound) and then use the extra width for platforms and rolling stock storage (between stations) as that removes the (high) cost of the station boxes.

The issue with following motorways is that there's often a lot which you have to avoid around them (not least the junctions with the rest of the network, as well as development which has been attracted there by the motorways - not everywhere, but enough it's not as straightforward as just following a motorway).

The curve ball suggestion is you remove a lane of the motorway in each direction and build a railway within that space. However, that means either motorway junctions are very complex or moving the railway away (such as to build a station or to connect to another part of the network) gets complex (read costly). However you also need to have already reduced road traffic to allow this to happen.

Either route following a motorway assuming that you've got reasonable railway sizes bends built into the motorway (which aren't always a given) to allow reasonable speeds (we don't want to be building ANY railway which means reducing speeds to much less than 100mph. As by going slower it increases the number of trains needed.

This is demonstrated by the fact that HS2 to Manchester needs fewer coaches than running the existing services, even though the average number of coaches increases by 60% (9 or 11 coaches to 16 coaches).

The maths is 10 coaches (the average of 9 coaches or 11 coaches) taking 5 hours to do the round trip ready to run again, for 3tph that's 150 coaches. Conversely 16 coaches taking 3 hours for 3tph that's 144 coaches. That's a lot of extra capacity without any extra day to day costs (actually with the faster journey times you also reduce staff costs too).

Part of the issue with HS2 is that it's very easy to sell that all land with plants on is equally good and so anything which destroys our countryside is bad all the time it's within the countryside. For example if you had to route something through a wetland or ancient woodland which is likely to be more important ecologically and from a carbon capture perception?

Trees are good, ancient trees more so, therefore the ancient woodland, right?

It's not always that straightforward. For example wetlands (especially bogs) can absorb more carbon than almost any other habitat type. As if we lost all our wetlands in the UK, we couldn't plant enough trees to compensate for their loss - even if we had all the land in the UK at our disposal.

Also ancient woodland doesn't mean that there's actually trees growing there (let alone old trees) it's just a designation which means that it's not been used by humans for a given timeframe (granted a very long one - which is why it's protected).

Whilst it's easy to pick holes in any given plan, it's much harder to produce a plan which is better. As often by fixing one issue you create another.

There's also a balance to be had, do we look in detail at all the potential options or do we go with the best after a less detailed review? The UK always is said to take a long time to build something and it does the latter, how much worse would it be if we did the former?

That's not too say we don't review as we go to see if there's changes which could improve the design further (for example more tunnels to protect more landscape or creating wetlands to absorb more carbon).

Until COVID the numbers using rail were far higher than the predicted numbers used to justify HS2. Now whilst there's been a noticeable drop and a more reduced buildup to the previous rail use numbers - that's not entirely without government fiddling. For example insisting on reduced costs without understanding the impact of those changes.

Since COVID the Elizabeth Line had shown that people are still willing to use rail to travel, it just needs to be high capacity, run frequently and be affordable. If more of the network was like this (and we come back to the need for more lines) then it wouldn't be hard to see even higher rail usage than we had before.

It's unlikely that increasing ticket prices for the next (say) 3 years would have any meaningful impact on the level of support the railways required (as some reduction in ticket costs would likely result in some extra usage - how much each would be is unknown).
 

Chester1

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There's only so many upgrades you can make to the existing rail network, we've made a significant number of them (or will have by 2040). That limits what you can do there.

At some point that means new lines.

Given that a lot of the capacity constraints are within the urban areas, if we wish to increase capacity chances are that's likely to mean tunnels of some variety. Now that could tunnels for your metro services to allow your long distance services to use the existing stations (like would happen with Crossrail 2 allowing Southampton, Salisbury, and others to see more frequent services into Waterloo). Alternatively you look at copying HS2 and building new lines into the urban areas.

The issue with the former is that you potentially limit your train lengths OR you reduce capacity by needing longer sections (not necessarily a bad thing as it'll give you a bit more resilience as you'll not be quite so right) for the longer trains OR it costs to resignal the area (again not necessarily a bad thing, as it could be part of your digital signals which aren't fixed blocks which then gives you more capacity).

You also potentially have to build more tunnels, (now that could be justified because of the improvements to the metro services) as the metro lines would probably need to connect to several different areas rather than one or two (if its a through route). Whilst the tunnel size could be smaller for metro lines, there's a school of thought that you build one larger tunnel and double stack the lines (say eastbound above westbound) and then use the extra width for platforms and rolling stock storage (between stations) as that removes the (high) cost of the station boxes.

The issue with following motorways is that there's often a lot which you have to avoid around them (not least the junctions with the rest of the network, as well as development which has been attracted there by the motorways - not everywhere, but enough it's not as straightforward as just following a motorway).

The curve ball suggestion is you remove a lane of the motorway in each direction and build a railway within that space. However, that means either motorway junctions are very complex or moving the railway away (such as to build a station or to connect to another part of the network) gets complex (read costly). However you also need to have already reduced road traffic to allow this to happen.

Either route following a motorway assuming that you've got reasonable railway sizes bends built into the motorway (which aren't always a given) to allow reasonable speeds (we don't want to be building ANY railway which means reducing speeds to much less than 100mph. As by going slower it increases the number of trains needed.

This is demonstrated by the fact that HS2 to Manchester needs fewer coaches than running the existing services, even though the average number of coaches increases by 60% (9 or 11 coaches to 16 coaches).

The maths is 10 coaches (the average of 9 coaches or 11 coaches) taking 5 hours to do the round trip ready to run again, for 3tph that's 150 coaches. Conversely 16 coaches taking 3 hours for 3tph that's 144 coaches. That's a lot of extra capacity without any extra day to day costs (actually with the faster journey times you also reduce staff costs too).

Part of the issue with HS2 is that it's very easy to sell that all land with plants on is equally good and so anything which destroys our countryside is bad all the time it's within the countryside. For example if you had to route something through a wetland or ancient woodland which is likely to be more important ecologically and from a carbon capture perception?

Trees are good, ancient trees more so, therefore the ancient woodland, right?

It's not always that straightforward. For example wetlands (especially bogs) can absorb more carbon than almost any other habitat type. As if we lost all our wetlands in the UK, we couldn't plant enough trees to compensate for their loss - even if we had all the land in the UK at our disposal.

Also ancient woodland doesn't mean that there's actually trees growing there (let alone old trees) it's just a designation which means that it's not been used by humans for a given timeframe (granted a very long one - which is why it's protected).

Whilst it's easy to pick holes in any given plan, it's much harder to produce a plan which is better. As often by fixing one issue you create another.

There's also a balance to be had, do we look in detail at all the potential options or do we go with the best after a less detailed review? The UK always is said to take a long time to build something and it does the latter, how much worse would it be if we did the former?

That's not too say we don't review as we go to see if there's changes which could improve the design further (for example more tunnels to protect more landscape or creating wetlands to absorb more carbon).

Until COVID the numbers using rail were far higher than the predicted numbers used to justify HS2. Now whilst there's been a noticeable drop and a more reduced buildup to the previous rail use numbers - that's not entirely without government fiddling. For example insisting on reduced costs without understanding the impact of those changes.

Since COVID the Elizabeth Line had shown that people are still willing to use rail to travel, it just needs to be high capacity, run frequently and be affordable. If more of the network was like this (and we come back to the need for more lines) then it wouldn't be hard to see even higher rail usage than we had before.

It's unlikely that increasing ticket prices for the next (say) 3 years would have any meaningful impact on the level of support the railways required (as some reduction in ticket costs would likely result in some extra usage - how much each would be is unknown).

I don't doubt that rationally the case adds up. I want HS2 to succeed. However, it looks like its not going well at all. It does look like at some point in next few years the cost will reach a point were further cutbacks are made. If I had to bet the line will finish as Euston to Birmingham, Crewe and East Midlands Parkway finishing around 2040. As a resident of Manchester that would anger me but the delays and costs keep mounting and there will be a point when the plug is pulled on remaining sections.
 

The Ham

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I don't doubt that rationally the case adds up. I want HS2 to succeed. However, it looks like its not going well at all. It does look like at some point in next few years the cost will reach a point were further cutbacks are made. If I had to bet the line will finish as Euston to Birmingham, Crewe and East Midlands Parkway finishing around 2040. As a resident of Manchester that would anger me but the delays and costs keep mounting and there will be a point when the plug is pulled on remaining sections.

Part of the cost increases are down to the government wanting to tinker with the scheme and the changes they want to bring about at it may save a bit of money.
 

AM9

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Part of the cost increases are down to the government wanting to tinker with the scheme and the changes they want to bring about at it may save a bit of money.
Another issue is the deliberate failure of the anti-HS2 commentators to define the scope of the project that they are trying to give the impression that the costs are out of control, both in terms of the work content and the cost index base. Because these erroneous figures are picked up by the populist press, this triggers the MPs, particularly those whose constituents won't directly benefit from the project, and of course those whose seats have a concentration of NIMBYs to gratify.
 

Snow1964

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The only way that a viable market for such trains could exist is if the U.K. joined Schengen and security checks for the tunnel were removed. Now, whilst I personally fully support both courses of action, I am in a smallish minority in this country and I can’t see that changing for a couple of decades at best.
Yes, I still think the lack of HS1/HS2 link is astonishing - ruling out forever that one day the people of the country might see the benefits of direct trains to Europe from north of London just because its not a priority at the present moment. We don't build infrastructure because we believe that it should be there as civic imperative, we build once the costs of not doing so outweigh the costs of doing so, which can take decades.
Which is exactly the short sightedness that has been discussed, building a project with a notional 120 year life, and not allowing for the possibility of UK continuing to be outside European integration might get changed in few years time.

I might be in a minority but I think a change of Government might get us back to common goods standards and no border checks within 2 years. Fixing troublesome North Ireland goods rules instantly. Ireland staying in Europe, with no currency risk for Europeans is giving them a Government financial surplus, must be laughing at UK. I'm sure if there wasn't a Northern Ireland border they would have joined Schengen too. One day UK will have to join or drift towards minor country status. So lack of HS1-HS2 link provision is bonkers.
 

JamesT

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Which is exactly the short sightedness that has been discussed, building a project with a notional 120 year life, and not allowing for the possibility of UK continuing to be outside European integration might get changed in few years time.

I might be in a minority but I think a change of Government might get us back to common goods standards and no border checks within 2 years. Fixing troublesome North Ireland goods rules instantly. Ireland staying in Europe, with no currency risk for Europeans is giving them a Government financial surplus, must be laughing at UK. I'm sure if there wasn't a Northern Ireland border they would have joined Schengen too. One day UK will have to join or drift towards minor country status. So lack of HS1-HS2 link provision is bonkers.
We didn’t take the opportunity to join Schengen in 30 years, why would you expect it to be different in the future?
The UK is an island so putting the controls on the border isn’t a crazy way to do it. Otherwise you need more administrative procedures for people within the country which is something the British public have always rejected.
Is there any evidence that a lack of direct trains to Europe is having a material detriment?
 

Chester1

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We didn’t take the opportunity to join Schengen in 30 years, why would you expect it to be different in the future?
The UK is an island so putting the controls on the border isn’t a crazy way to do it. Otherwise you need more administrative procedures for people within the country which is something the British public have always rejected.
Is there any evidence that a lack of direct trains to Europe is having a material detriment?

Its ideological, just don't bother! There isn't an economic or environmental case for a HS1-HS2 link. The number of point to point journeys is too small.

I totally agree that for an island it will always make most sense for us to have our own border controls. Iceland chose to join Schengen to maintain Nordic passport union and isn't a popular country for illegal migration. Malta didn't have a choice (it was a condition of their EU membership).
 

Bald Rick

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Does anyone have a link to the data on UK flights to European destinations broken down by airport?

It's on Eurostat. Not the easiest dataset to get around but it does work.

It’s all here


Data back to 1973. Detail from 2015, annually and by month. Table 12 has details of airport to airport international passenger flows. the link below is for the year of 2019, which was the busiest year (although 2023 will, I suspect, come close).


 

Chester1

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Does anyone have a link to the data on UK flights to European destinations broken down by airport?

It's on Eurostat. Not the easiest dataset to get around but it does work.

You can get the broad picture by searching on Google flights, Skyscanner etc.

Manchester to Paris - 9-10 flights per day
Manchester to Brussels - 4-5 flights per day
Manchester to Amsterdam - 10-12 flights per day.

Birmingham to Paris - 3-5 flights per day
Birmingham to Brussels - 2 flights per day
Birmingham to Amsterdam - 6-7 flights per day

East Midlands to Paris - 1 flight per day
East Midlands to Brussels - none
East Midlands to Amsterdam - none

Leeds to Paris - average of 1 per day
Leeds to Brussels - none
Leeds to Amsterdam - 4 flights per day

Total = 39-45 flights per day.

Five of those flights have the capacity of one Eurostar. Many passengers will be interlining onto long haul flights and if short flights are banned they would fly directly. There are many ways to spend £2bn or more that would be better for the environment. The effect on business case for HS2 would be very marginal too.
 

The Ham

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You can get the broad picture by searching on Google flights, Skyscanner etc.

Manchester to Paris - 9-10 flights per day
Manchester to Brussels - 4-5 flights per day
Manchester to Amsterdam - 10-12 flights per day.

Birmingham to Paris - 3-5 flights per day
Birmingham to Brussels - 2 flights per day
Birmingham to Amsterdam - 6-7 flights per day

East Midlands to Paris - 1 flight per day
East Midlands to Brussels - none
East Midlands to Amsterdam - none

Leeds to Paris - average of 1 per day
Leeds to Brussels - none
Leeds to Amsterdam - 4 flights per day

Total = 39-45 flights per day.

Five of those flights have the capacity of one Eurostar. Many passengers will be interlining onto long haul flights and if short flights are banned they would fly directly. There are many ways to spend £2bn or more that would be better for the environment. The effect on business case for HS2 would be very marginal too.

Which is why, if there was a future need for a link then a different rail link would probably be preferable. Yes it would add 2 changes (for example OOC and Stratford), however such a link would allow local traffic to use it so spread the cost between more people.

If we take one of those pairings, Manchester/Paris even if 100% switched to train at most that's 3 trains per day.

Conversely with another rail link (assuming it's a London line with other stations with better than 6tph) there's 3tph Manchester/OOC an interchange with limited waiting for the next service and then onwards travel at the frequency to/from Stratford - making it much more likely that there's a reasonably times service to where your going.

It also means that if only 2% of passengers switch then there's still viable services for them to use, rather than an all or nothing option (not that the all is very good).
 
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