What incentive is there to go by train?

[miami]

Who are you going with? Trainline lists Nantwich to London as £83.80 off peak return which will allow you to take any off peak train on any reasonable route into Euston, Marylebone or Paddington and return within a month.

Returning at a reasonable time (1500 or 1800) means you need a peak on the way back.

The ticket price may be the same as the fuel costs

If only. My mid-size Fabia averaged 65mpg yesterday, 14.3 miles per litre. That's well under 10p a mile.

 

[theironroad]

I drove to London yesterday as TFW say I'm not allowed on their trains from Nantwich to Crewe.

(Also because the train I'd normally get wasn't running)

Downsides: took about an hour longer, traffic was heavy.

Upsides: Could listen to infinite monkey cage and then join in an hour long zoom call

Cost: 3 days parking, £60. Petrol 24 litres, about £26, so £86 for a 3 day trip. As I arrived at what would by an off peak ticket rail would 'only' be £196.

If it was my money there's no contest. As the cost doesn't come into it then under normal circumstances the train beats the car.

I'm assuming you didn't drive into central London as a) the parking would likely have been more and b) the congestion charge is now £15 per day and applies also in evening and at weekends.

You can also listen(and watch) to what you want on a train ,though helps if it's downloaded.

While you could do a zoom meeting on a train, I'm not sure the fellow passengers would be overly impressed and tbh, I doubt the police would be overly impressed at doing one while driving a car as it is probably classed as a distraction.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm assuming you didn't drive into central London as a) the parking would likely have been more and b) the congestion charge is now £15 per day and applies also in evening and at weekends.

You can also listen(and watch) to what you want on a train ,though helps if it's downloaded.

While you could do a zoom meeting on a train, I'm not sure the fellow passengers would be overly impressed and tbh, I doubt the police would be overly impressed at doing one while driving a car as it is probably classed as a distraction.

Don't know about you, but I'd regard Euston Road as central London. And yet it's outwith the Congestion Charge and ULEZ areas.

 

[theironroad]

Don't know about you, but I'd regard Euston Road as central London. And yet it's outwith the Congestion Charge and ULEZ areas.

Quite, and pollution wise it could do being within but also think it is the northern boundary.

Point taken. Could park around Euston etc somewhere and still be central.

 

[Bald Rick]

If only. My mid-size Fabia averaged 65mpg yesterday, 14.3 miles per litre. That's well under 10p a mile.

Yep, my Golf did over 450miles over the weekend on £35 worth of diesel with 4 on board. Still more expensive than the train (we all get it free ) but much more convenient, more practical, and quicker. It’s not all about cost of course.

 

[HowardGWR]

Rail will not be suitable for many leisure journeys when one has a car. But how often are these leisure journeys being undertaken? The idea of frequently travelling 450 miles on a weekend after a hard week at work would fill me with dread..

 

[Horizon22]

And yet in the real world the rail industry has been winning new business hand over fist, with ridership having doubled since the 1990s. True perhaps, growth in the Southeast and London (i.e. Thameslink to which you refer) had hit a plateau before Covid, with the former provincial and intercity services stepping up the main drivers of growth.

Readers of this thread could be excused a degree of 'cognitive dissonance' attempting to reconcile sentiments herein and what we have observed in the reality of increasing ridership, the majority of GB citizens now using the train service each year, and reasonable (if not astounding) passenger satisfaction scores.

In fact the views expressed here might be seen as cause for optimism after covid, as there is clearly plenty of opportunity not just to resume a service that the public have been keen to use previously, but to but more effort into winning the 'hearts and minds' of travellers to the point that even rail forum users have positive things to say about train travel.

Of course that may be seen as less rail being made more attractive, but cars becoming much less attractive (cost & time) in London & SE to play devil's advocate.

As an aside, it is of course very infrastructure dependent; some destinations are readily available by rail, but others may be a long walk / bus ride away or require a lift which is where the car starts to win out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Rail will not be suitable for many leisure journeys when one has a car. But how often are these leisure journeys being undertaken? The idea of frequently travelling 450 miles on a weekend after a hard week at work would fill me with dread..

I didn’t say the 450 miles was for leisure! And to be honest, after a hard (very, very hard) week at work, a 220 mile drive each way with the test match for company was an absolute joy.

 

[miami]

While you could do a zoom meeting on a train, I'm not sure the fellow passengers would be overly impressed and tbh, I doubt the police would be overly impressed at doing one while driving a car as it is probably classed as a distraction.

No laws against having a hands free phonecall. You're right that any phone call on a train is a recipe for disapointment - poor signal (unlike the motorway),

I consider a 5 minute walk from Marylebone station central london. I'm amazed how easy it is to ride around zone 1 now -- lots of bikes, very few vehicles, the only one that got close to me this morning was a black cab in a bus lane -- I do wish they stopped taxis from using bus lanes.

So how could the railway increase incentives?

On the WCML, get rid of the 'peak' times, when trains are emptier. Provide near constant 4G for passengers in the train. Still not quite as good as your own private space, but it does whittle away at the benefits of a car.

The point is that if the train struggles to compete even with single person journeys into central London, why would the average person travelling from Winsford to Macclesfield do anything other than drive?

 

[miami]

Return was much faster, left car park at 17:00, home by 2020, 35 minutes slower than by train. Had I left 20 minutes though I'd have been home by 2040, same as by the train. Had I waited to the "off-peak" train it would be 1h20 faster by car.

Car park was cheaper than expected - £55, not £60.

Clearly the car, even at a miserly 50mpg, was far far cheaper than the train's £138 one way (15 litres, £18 on the way back, so total cost about the same as an offpeak ticket)

DAB + mobile phone signal the whole way allowed listening to PM, 6PM news, make a couple of calls, then Newsroom, finally a podcast, so entertainment better than an unplanned train trip.

But lets set aside the crazy 'peak' costs on the WCML. So what would have made me do the journey? It does feel like walking on eggshells on the train, playing russian roulette with the untouchable staff.

Here's a quote from another thread

If only!! Off peak returns from outside Greater Manchester don’t have an evening peak restriction, but still get rejected by the gateline at Victoria even if the ticket is to/from Manchester. I presume there’s a blanket rejection of all off peak tickets between 4pm and 630pm or whenever it is. This is frustrating enough, but it’s then compounded by having to find the one member of staff and persuade him to let you through. Normally there’s a quick glance at the ticket and a “nah, off peak innit”

The less time I spend on trains (thanks covid), the more it seems crazy I would ever use the train. I think there's a known psychological effect where you categorise bad behaviour (like this quote) as normal and don't even recognise there's a problem.

If the railway wants to incentivise, it needs to start from a position the passenger is right, rather than the attitude that the trains run despite the passengers.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the railway wants to incentivise, it needs to start from a position the passenger is right, rather than the attitude that the trains run despite the passengers.

This gets to the heart of the issue. There are far too many people who aren't accountable for their actions. There's no one person who can be pointed to and said to be responsible. It's always someone else's fault if things go wrong.

Unless and until there's a fundamental shift in attitude in the rail industry, it will continue to mainly attract those people who use it as a least worst option, not as the best option.

 

[py_megapixel]

This gets to the heart of the issue. There are far too many people who aren't accountable for their actions. There's no one person who can be pointed to and said to be responsible. It's always someone else's fault if things go wrong.

Unless and until there's a fundamental shift in attitude in the rail industry, it will continue to mainly attract those people who use it as a least worst option, not as the best option.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The whole thing is too disconnected. There is no single body you can complain to if you are dissatisfied with the service, and if you aren't "clued up" on exactly who is responsible then it can feel like you are being constantly fobbed off and told it's someone else's problem. Even claiming delay compensation you can be bounced back and forth between two TOCs, both of whom insist it's the other's fault.

 

[Ianno87]

While you could do a zoom meeting on a train, I'm not sure the fellow passengers would be overly impressed

Get a headset or hands-free headphones with a microphone. No different to a regular phone call.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Rail will not be suitable for many leisure journeys when one has a car. But how often are these leisure journeys being undertaken? The idea of frequently travelling 450 miles on a weekend after a hard week at work would fill me with dread..

I would agree with you these days; but 'back in the day' when that 'special friend' lived 225 miles away...

 

[miami]

Get a headset or hands-free headphones with a microphone. No different to a regular phone call.

Reality of the signal on the WCML isn't good enough for a phone call or a continuous data call. Not on vodafone anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Reality of the signal on the WCML isn't good enough for a phone call or a continuous data call. Not on vodafone anyway.

It’s fine on O2 - except for Tring cutting and some of the tunnels.

 

[Starmill]

Let's bury the myth that 'most people never use the train' once and for all.

This hasn't been quite the claim though has it.

You're correct that 39% of people never use the railway. That's not a majority. Does it sound good to you, though? Furthermore, 38% of people use the train less often than once a month, so that's broadly between once and eleven times per year. Now to me, between once and eleven times per year sounds like 'almost never', but if you disagree I can understand that. You might describe it as 'very infrequently', and that would be fair.

So it's correct to say that an enormous majority of people use the railway either very infrequently or never. And it is not a surprise.

 

[Jamesrob637]

[/QUOTE]
If only. My mid-size Fabia averaged 65mpg yesterday, 14.3 miles per litre. That's well under 10p a mile.
[/QUOTE]

The Fabia I had wasn't great on motorways. Is yours a 2015 onwards? They're apparently light years ahead and a worthy contender for a train on medium-distance journeys.

 

[squizzler]

This hasn't been quite the claim though has it.

You're correct that 39% of people never use the railway. That's not a majority. Does it sound good to you, though? Furthermore, 38% of people use the train less often than once a month, so that's broadly between once and eleven times per year. Now to me, between once and eleven times per year sounds like 'almost never', but if you disagree I can understand that. You might describe it as 'very infrequently', and that would be fair.

So it's correct to say that an enormous majority of people use the railway either very infrequently or never. And it is not a surprise.

We can jump through logical hoops to 'prove' that rail travel is of minor importance if it makes you feel comfortable, but the ridership trend has been upwards long term so you will have to bend logic increasingly far to support your assertion. I don't see why you are so emotionally invested in the idea that rial travel is for a minority anyway - do we feel any less special in the knowledge that our use of train travel does not make us part of an elite?

Whatever, the success in winning new traffic is proof that there are plenty of 'incentives' to choose the train and I think that the man or woman in the street would be able to do a better job articulating them than this forum of alleged rail enthusiasts. Maybe we as a community feel these benefits are in some way 'wooly' and are reticent to articulate amongst our peers for fear of ridicule? As a leisure traveller I certainly find train travel on the whole to be an enjoyable experience. Yes there are occasions when I misjudge and end up on a rammed service - and I pity my brother whose town visit route from Worcester to Birmingham is rarely anything but - whereas the majority of time it is a joy.

 

[DB]

Whatever, the success in winning new traffic is proof that there are plenty of 'incentives' to choose the train and I think that the man or woman in the street would be able to do a better job articulating them than this forum of alleged rail enthusiasts. Maybe we as a community feel these benefits are in some way 'wooly' and are reticent to articulate amongst our peers for fear of ridicule? As a leisure traveller I certainly find train travel on the whole to be an enjoyable experience. Yes there are occasions when I misjudge and end up on a rammed service - and I pity my brother whose town visit route from Worcester to Birmingham is rarely anything but - whereas the majority of time it is a joy.

I don't think the average 'man or woman on the sreet' is generally particularly keen on train travel. They might prefer it as an occasional thing on longer distances, but does anyone really find commuting by train a 'joy'?

 

[The Ham]

This hasn't been quite the claim though has it.

You're correct that 39% of people never use the railway. That's not a majority. Does it sound good to you, though? Furthermore, 38% of people use the train less often than once a month, so that's broadly between once and eleven times per year. Now to me, between once and eleven times per year sounds like 'almost never', but if you disagree I can understand that. You might describe it as 'very infrequently', and that would be fair.

So it's correct to say that an enormous majority of people use the railway either very infrequently or never. And it is not a surprise.

Whilst many people use the railways infrequently they still use them and therefore could be inclined to use them more of there was enough of a reason to do so.

It shows that spending on rail by e government benefits the majority of the population directly and virtually all the population indirectly (through roads being less congested than they otherwise would be).

Whist there's still only about 10% of travel by miles is by rail much of this is down to limits in capacity, with more investment in the railways then now people would be able to travel which in turn would reduce the subsidies required.

As although a 4 coach EMU is going to cost ~80% more than a 2 coach DMU to lease and run, staff costs remain the same as well as lower fuel costs. As such you probably only need about an extra 50% more people to travel before there's then enough extra income to cover the extra costs.

If we had an upgrade plan which looked to ensure that every train which runs into major stations (greater than 10 million passengers a year) was an average of at least 6 coaches long and a minimum of 3 (no more than 10% to be this, although some of the smaller major stations this could be higher if those services are running at a frequency of 2tph or greater) then there would probably be a need for less subsidy than there currently is.

If that's the case then there'd be less pressure for ticket prices to be so high.

Whilst there's going to be complaints saying but the subsidy is billions of pounds a year, this is only part of the picture as that includes billions of pounds of investment in enhancements to the existing network.

As such the day to day running cost subsidy changes about but is measured in 100's of millions (a few years back it was less than £200 million), on a railway which takes >£10bn in ticket sales that's only about 2% extra.

With extra costs of longer trains, as suggested above, then it's probably an extra 5-10%.

 

[The Ham]

I don't think the average 'man or woman on the sreet' is generally particularly keen on train travel. They might prefer it as an occasional thing on longer distances, but does anyone really find commuting by train a 'joy'?

It's more joyful than driving.

There's going to be days where is cold, where it takes forever, where you don't know when you're next train is turning up, but that can be just as true when driving.

However there's things which are better by going by train, you often arrive more relaxed and almost certainly less tired than if you're driving. You can do admin, online shopping, etc so that you have more free time for doing other things when at home (something which can help offset some of those journeys which are longer by rail).

 

[DB]

You can do admin, online shopping, etc

Not very practical if you are wedged in like sardines.

Yes, commuting by car can be crap too, but that doesn't necessarily make the train any more pleasant. In my case it's actively put me off train travel - since I've been having to use trains to commute more, I've been using them less for annything non-work (despite not having a car).

Obviously it also depends on what your commute is - if it happens to be between stations on a well-served long-distance line with big trains and plenty of capacity it's going to be a lot more pleasant than if it's a rammed commuter train into a large city.

 

[corfield]

It's more joyful than driving.

There's going to be days where is cold, where it takes forever, where you don't know when you're next train is turning up, but that can be just as true when driving.

However there's things which are better by going by train, you often arrive more relaxed and almost certainly less tired than if you're driving. You can do admin, online shopping, etc so that you have more free time for doing other things when at home (something which can help offset some of those journeys which are longer by rail).

Joyful?

Car offers door to door, personal space, protected from elements the entire journey, able to listen to podcasts and music freely and above all, put your stuff in the boot and dont have to hump it around.

I find train journeys far more stressful- worrying about making a connection, worrying about bag going missing, sitting next to smelly/fat/food spreading/noisy people, not getting a seat and it being a test of physical endurance, toilets being out of service or disgusting. I worry about my kids’ safety on platforms, if they are annoying by other pax with their noise.

I can drive 100s and 100s of miles in my car (Mondeo) and I honestly feel relaxed when I get out of it. As a diesal it gives me high 50s mpg and can carry literally everything I ne

Much as people dont like congestion, the number of times in the last 10 years I’ve actually missed something due to traffic or been completely powerless to take an alternate route is tiny (once? I think) compared to many train cancellations and delays.

As for doing stuff online, that you can do that on a longer rail journey is pretty desperate - I’d rather be at home earlier doing that in comfort than doing it with someones elbow in my back and having to use one hand to balance myself standing.

Enthusiastic as people can be about trains, and clearly I am, lets not pretend they are some magical answer, especially vs a private vehicle.

 

[yorksrob]

Joyful?

Car offers door to door, personal space, protected from elements the entire journey, able to listen to podcasts and music freely and above all, put your stuff in the boot and dont have to hump it around.

I find train journeys far more stressful- worrying about making a connection, worrying about bag going missing, sitting next to smelly/fat/food spreading/noisy people, not getting a seat and it being a test of physical endurance, toilets being out of service or disgusting. I worry about my kids’ safety on platforms, if they are annoying by other pax with their noise.

I can drive 100s and 100s of miles in my car (Mondeo) and I honestly feel relaxed when I get out of it. As a diesal it gives me high 50s mpg and can carry literally everything I ne

Much as people dont like congestion, the number of times in the last 10 years I’ve actually missed something due to traffic or been completely powerless to take an alternate route is tiny (once? I think) compared to many train cancellations and delays.

As for doing stuff online, that you can do that on a longer rail journey is pretty desperate - I’d rather be at home earlier doing that in comfort than doing it with someones elbow in my back and having to use one hand to balance myself standing.

Enthusiastic as people can be about trains, and clearly I am, lets not pretend they are some magical answer, especially vs a private vehicle.

It's horses for course though.

I can well see that it's a lot easier to pile the family and its stuff into the car on many occasions.

But that said, as a single person, in many ways it's a lot easier to just hop on the train without the worry of whether the car has petrol, where can I leave it, how to get there through one way systems etc, will I be able to have a drink etc. Cars come with a lot of ongoing responsibility, which in many ways rail passengers either don't have, or can be left at the door of the railway station.

The train also gives freedom to individual members of single car households.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Public transport, in any form, is not suitable, or even available, for all journeys.
Private cars allow people to make the journeys they need, at the time they choose/need, and also allows the user to combine several elements or tasks into a single trip, that would not be possible, or very difficult on public transport.
Public transport has its uses, but it is not, and should never be considered, the optimum solution for all journeys.

 

[PeterC]

The train also gives freedom to individual members of single car households.

Surely buses are more important in that role. The bus takes you into town to catch the train, or to shop / solcialise / work locally.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely buses are more important in that role. The bus takes you into town to catch the train, or to shop / solcialise / work locally.

Well, the argument goes for all public transport and active transport to an extent. There are some journeys that are suitable to one mode and some the other. The point is that maintaining and bringing your own metal box with you isn't suitable to everyone.

 

[Huntergreed]

The statistics show that the majority of people use rail either never or very infrequently. I imagine that ridership will decrease noticeably due to both the harsh Covid messaging surrounding public transport and the mandation of masks making car travel more appealing.

At the moment, with no or little catering, mandatory masks, less frequent services and earlier “last trains”, it’s hard for even me as a rail enthusiast to find many “incentives” which would encourage me to choose rail over car at the present time.

 

[miami]

This is an interesting report from 2015

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486598/public-attitudes-towards-train-services-2015-report.pdf

** Who users the train **
If you never use a car or van, you're less likely to use a train than if you use a car/van every day.

While 54% of the country had used a train in the previous 12 months, this is skewed by those in London and the South East (61% + 66% having used a train once in the previous 12 months).

The higher your household income the more likely you are to have travelled by train. If you're in a managerial/professional occupation you're more likely to have travelled by train.

The higher your income, the more train trips you make, and the more miles you travel. You're more likely to use the train if you live near to the station.

** Short trips **
56% of the country never uses the train for short trips, and another 27% less than once a month. Main complaint by users of short trips is the cost of parking (62% saying it's bad for short trips, compared with 48% complaining about cost of fares). On the flip side most people like the speed, and punctuality isn't that bad.

By Non-users, so "what the rail industry can do", the main complaints are
Cost of parking: 66%
Cost of fares: 61%
Overcrowding: 40%

So for short trips, clearly the message is "cheaper journeys and cheaper parking". Non-users tend to have a worse view of trains than users, so perhaps giving out free short-trip train tickets could help?

The most popular reason to not travel by train for short trips is it's easier by car and it's quicker by car. Only 9% say they think it's cheaper by car, which seems odd when combined with the speed and punctuality. Perhaps it's a case of "if your journey is from station to station, the train is fast and simple, but for everyone else it's not"

33% say nothing would encourage more use of short trains, 35% say cheaper fares would.

** Long Trips **

Of everyone who has travelled long distance, 18% didn't use the train, and a further 37% used the train less than half the time. Most popular reason long distance train is to visit relatives (54%), with daysout/holidays 50%. Business only 19% and commuting (even just a couple of days a week) 7%.

The prime reasons to use the train are it's quicker and easier (42+40%). Only 10% think "do other things while travelling" is the main reason. Almost all Long Distance users like the service.

Reasons not to use the train are easier by car/plane (35%), and train fares are too high (21%), however only 10% say they don't use the train because they think it's cheaper by car/plane.

Infrequent users say they'll travel more with cheaper fares, that's by far the largest category (64%). Overcrowding just 12%.

** Train tickets **

Now we get to the gist of the report, how to remove passenger rights through "simplification"

29% of train users think there are too many ticket types, 21% of non-train users. 63% of non-users do not understand the types of tickets. 11% of non-users claim to fully understand tickets, I suspect they don't mean "fully understand" in the same way that some Fares Advisors on here fully understand

Surprisingly 45% of people buy train tickets from a ticket office, with just 8% from a vending machine, and 37% online. About 2/3rds of people using a vending machine are collecting tickets rather than buying them.