What is each TOC's over-served service

[ashworth]

As for TPE, the provision to Manchester Airport is well over the top (other than when it stops in southern Manchester at rush hour) - I've been on plenty packed Sheffield - Manchester services which carry under a dozen beyond Piccadilly. Handy for the few who go to the Airport, but a waste of resources in the Bigger Picture. But then every single town/village needs a direct service to the Airport (apparently)...

I agree. I just can't see why so many services, from all directions, run to Manchester Airport. Most of them, between Picadilly and the Airport, run almost empty whereas if they ran through to more useful destinations it would save so many passengers having to change trains at Manchester Picadilly and relieve the overcrowding on the through platforms 13 and 14.

I would like to suggest that the hourly TPE Cleethorpes service was joined to the hourly TPE Blackpool North service, to provide a through service from Sheffield to Preston and Blackpool. There would still be hourly Manchester Airport services from the Preston direction provided by the Barrow and Scotland services.

 

[tbtc]

Others on this forum have noted how heavily-loaded the Valley lines are, and no fewer than three of the Valleys routes pass through Pontypridd.

How would you propose running adequate services from Cardiff to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert while simultaneously reducing the service between Cardiff and Pontypridd?

Indeed - to claim that Pontypridd is overserved is a bit like saying that Reading is over-served - everything has to pass through Pontypridd, I don;t recall seeing any quiet trains on that line
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I agree. I just can't see why so many services, from all directions, run to Manchester Airport. Most of them, between Picadilly and the Airport, run almost empty whereas if they ran through to more useful destinations it would save so many passengers having to change trains at Manchester and relieve the overcrowding on the through platforms 13 and 14.

I would like to suggest that the hourly TPE Cleethorpes service was joined to the hourly TPE Blackpool North service, to provide a through service from Sheffield to Preston and Blackpool. There would still be hourly Manchester Airport services from the Preston direction provided by the Barrow and Scotland services.

That'd be a better use of resources, and give a few new links (or, rather, bring back old links!).

There must be 20+ coaches from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly each hour (compared to single figure numbers on routes like Manchester - Sheffield).

Some direct Airport links are fine, but the current situation is overkill.
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FCC - all stations services which run north of St. Albans.

Could never see the point when there are already 4 Bedford - Brighton per hour which serve Luton to St. Albans.

It used to be that all four Wimbledon services ran to Luton - that was complete overkill (on top of the existing four/hour "fast" services that cover stops north of St Albans)

 

[Lampshade]

There must be 20+ coaches from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly each hour (compared to single figure numbers on routes like Manchester - Sheffield).

25 per hour off peak, can be as high as 30 with portion working on the Scotland/Cumbria and occasional Southport strengthening.

 

[tbtc]

25 per hour off peak, can be as high as 30 with portion working on the Scotland/Cumbria and occasional Southport strengthening.

Cheers - thats a huge number compared to Sheffield - Manchester (five an hour?) and Leeds - Manchester (twelve an hour)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

25 per hour off peak, can be as high as 30 with portion working on the Scotland/Cumbria and occasional Southport strengthening.

I wonder if we should organise a petition to National Rail to say that their plan for a fourth platform at Manchester Airport is now not to be proceeded with as Railforums UK members are actively trying to cut down the numbers of the trains that use this station at present....not to allow the extra services that are planned for it under the Northern Hub. This will mean there will be no need to proceed with the Ordsall Chord project....look how much money this will save.:roll:

The above was written whilst wearing my "Sunday Best" cynics hat on.

 

[trickyvegas]

The two main benefits I see of services terminating at the Airport is that it frees up platform space at Piccadilly and it also gives them the opportunity to terminate the service short at Piccadilly if trying to recover from severe delays.

 

[Hydro]

I tend to use the HS route mainly at weekends and tend to get not just a seat but a carriage to myself both directions regardless of whether I am heading to the Medway towns or out Ashford way.

Try during the week! The Margate/Dover services are frequently full and standing coming off STP in the peaks, and healthily loaded off-peak. Same in the reverse direction, I'd agree that you need to be quick off the mark at CBW sometimes.

SET HS services are really just glorified commuter services, so it's no surprise at thinner loadings at the weekends.

 

[tbtc]

The two main benefits I see of services terminating at the Airport is that it frees up platform space at Piccadilly and it also gives them the opportunity to terminate the service short at Piccadilly if trying to recover from severe delays.

I can see the logic in freeing up platform space at Piccadilly (like the way that the ATW services from Holyhead/ Aberystwyth get extended to Birmingham International to free up space at New Street), but at the moment almost half of the services to the Airport are reversing at Piccadilly (Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Cleethorpes) which makes things more complicated.

I'm all in favour of running "through" services to avoid dwelling in busy platforms for long (e.g. the suggestion of running Cleethorpes - Blackpool, instead of Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport and Manchester Airport - Blackpool).

 

[DarloRich]

And for the last one that I can think of, TPX's worst offender would be having the Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Cleethorpes trains terminate at Manchester Airport rather than at Manchester Piccadilly. (Another piece of off-topic) I personally would have the Cleethorpes continue to Liverpool Lime Street, in the place of the current Scarborough-Liverpool, and have the Scarborough terminate at Manchester Piccadilly. This means that the Scarborough wouldn't cut right across the throat of the station at Piccadilly, meaning potentially more services can run south out of the station.

These services are well used BECAUSE they go to the airport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT is TPE selling point for many of their "discretionary" travellers. You can get the train from Newcastle, Darlo, Boro, York, Scarbrough, Cleethorpes, Doncaster etc DIRECT to the airport. Better still, you get back to Manchester at stupid o'clock in the morning and you can get the train straight home! It works and must make them money, why stop it?

How could you make it LESS attractive to occasional travellers to use the train as part of their holiday? By making them drag their luggage across Manchester Piccadilly to board another train.

I do agree that NE - Liverpool services cause a lot of trouble at Manchester Piccadilly because of the crossing movements. This might change when Northern Hub is completed and these services can be diverted away form Manchester Piccadilly. Hopefully this will allow the restoration of Newcastle - Liverpool services

 

[jonb]

I've used the branch between Slough - Windsor & Eton Central twice over the past few weeks both times being at weekends. The service is very well used and both times I had to stand (it's only 5 - 8 minutes so not too fussed) as I understand parking at the Windsor end is expensive and limited.

A contender has to be Chiltern's 08:00 & 09:00 Marylebone - South Ruislip?! Both trains call only at Wembley Stadium & Sudbury Hill Harrow. 15 minutes either side of the 08:00 departure for example are other services which also call at Wembley + South Ruislip. From passing through the 'Sudburys' on this line I can't imagine they are overly busy especially as they only get a weekday service.

 

[tbtc]

These services are well used BECAUSE they go to the airport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT is TPE selling point for many of their "discretionary" travellers. You can get the train from Newcastle, Darlo, Boro, York, Scarbrough, Cleethorpes, Doncaster etc DIRECT to the airport. Better still, you get back to Manchester at stupid o'clock in the morning and you can get the train straight home! It works and must make them money, why stop it?

How could you make it LESS attractive to occasional travellers to use the train as part of their holiday? By making them drag their luggage across Manchester Piccadilly to board another train.

I do agree that NE - Liverpool services cause a lot of trouble at Manchester Piccadilly because of the crossing movements. This might change when Northern Hub is completed and these services can be diverted away form Manchester Piccadilly. Hopefully this will allow the restoration of Newcastle - Liverpool services

At the moment there are more seats available between Piccadilly and the Airport than the combined total of seats available between Piccadilly and Leeds/ Sheffield.

Is that really a great use of resources, putting all these coaches on to the Airport in case people use the train for their annual holidays, whilst daily commuters (who clearly pay a lot more over the year) are stuck on short trains?

Sadly it seems that a direct hourly service to the Airport has become one of those badges of civic pride - and nowhere wants to lose it (even if it makes train services increadibly complicated and causes the confusion of Southport/ Blackpool etc having half their trains from one Manchester station and half from the other).

 

[pemma]

As for TPE, the provision to Manchester Airport is well over the top (other than when it stops in southern Manchester at rush hour) - I've been on plenty packed Sheffield - Manchester services which carry under a dozen beyond Piccadilly. Handy for the few who go to the Airport, but a waste of resources in the Bigger Picture. But then every single town/village needs a direct service to the Airport (apparently)...

As I said before the Airport needs a western spur then we could have trains like Liverpool to South Parkway to Manchester Airport via Northwich, then continuing to Leeds or likewise North Wales to Airport to Manchester. It could half the number of services needing the Piccadilly-Airport line without major places no longer having a direct Airport service.

Manchester Airport is really just seen as a convenient place to have services which enter Manchester via Oxford Road terminating. Stockport can't take on extra services, while going out towards Ardwick would interfere with TPE workings.

At present places under the flight path for Manchester Airport don't have any direct public transport link to Manchester Airport while places like Cleethorphes, Middlesbrough and Edinburgh can have direct rail links.

 

[telstarbox]

I've said this before, but Heathrow and Gatwick are both larger airports than Manchester and they manage without as many direct services.

Heathrow has no direct trains from anywhere beyond London. Gatwick has a few services to Brighton, Reading, Southampton etc but these are possible because the station is on the London-Brighton mainline.

Clearly MIA passengers from further afield (particularly Scotland and the TPE stations in the North East) benefit from services direct to the airport and this is preferable to changing at MAN. However, if passengers had to change to an "Airport Shuttle" at Piccadilly Piccadilly is well-laid out for this as it has terminal platforms (so no need to use stairs/lifts), plenty of space on the concourse and the travelators to platforms 13/14 - it's a lot easier than a change at Sheffield or Leeds for example if you've got big suitcases.

 

[pemma]

you get back to Manchester at stupid o'clock in the morning and you can get the train straight home!

Only selected places on the TPE network have an overnight service. There's no overnight Middlesbrough service, for instance.

 

[DarloRich]

At the moment there are more seats available between Piccadilly and the Airport than the combined total of seats available between Piccadilly and Leeds/ Sheffield.

Is that really a great use of resources, putting all these coaches on to the Airport in case people use the train for their annual holidays, whilst daily commuters (who clearly pay a lot more over the year) are stuck on short trains?

Sadly it seems that a direct hourly service to the Airport has become one of those badges of civic pride - and nowhere wants to lose it (even if it makes train services increadibly complicated and causes the confusion of Southport/ Blackpool etc having half their trains from one Manchester station and half from the other).

But most of those seats have already gone through Leeds and Sheffield on thier way to the Airport ( at least in the case of TPE)

 

[SWT_USER]

Yet in the other thread it was mentioned that Greenford could possibly pass as FGW's worst! I personally don't see what's so over-served about it. It's only halfhourly with the last train before 10pm and it doesn't run Sundays!

I mentioned it as the worst, mainly because it is always the first to go when there is disruption anywhere between London and Oxford. but there are no information screens or announcements to tell you of the cancellations.

As an aside it is fairly well loaded in the peaks I find.

 

[merlodlliw]

I've said this before, but Heathrow and Gatwick are both larger airports than Manchester and they manage without as many direct services.

No one will argue Thief & wick are bigger, but Manchester is the third largest carrier of air passengers in the UK

 

[Schnellzug]

Clearly MIA passengers from further afield (particularly Scotland and the TPE stations in the North East) benefit from services direct to the airport and this is preferable to changing at MAN. However, if passengers had to change to an "Airport Shuttle" at Piccadilly Piccadilly is well-laid out for this as it has terminal platforms (so no need to use stairs/lifts), plenty of space on the concourse and the travelators to platforms 13/14 - it's a lot easier than a change at Sheffield or Leeds for example if you've got big suitcases.

MIA? Miami International?

 

[HYPODERMIC]

MIA = Manchester Airport railway station NRE code
MAN = Manchester Airport IATA code

It'd make things a bit easier if ATOC just renamed Piccadilly as "MCR" or whatever, and gave "MAN" to Manchester Airport, although there'd be a lot of confusion in the short-term and even I admit it'd probably not be worthwhile.

 

[pmgarvey]

An airport shuttle would work well, partly just because it sounds a lot nicer to people coming from far afield, you know you're not going to be on a commuter packed train, there'll be room for luggage etc. You could even do it like at Heathrow with an expensive non-stop and a cheap serving the intermediate stations. Of course this is in fantasy land where TPE have spare stock lying around they want to use.

 

[telstarbox]

Having said that, TPE's stock is good for airport services as there's plenty of luggage room and the doors are wide and sensibly positioned (unlike a 158 which takes 5 mins to unload and load at Piccadilly!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us look at the suggestion made by some forum members concerning terminating some Manchester Airport services at Manchester Piccadilly and passengers for Manchester Airport using a shuttle service from Manchester Piccadilly. The Class 185 units are three car units with "X" amount of luggage capacity. Are you saying that the same amount of luggage capacity will be provided on the shuttle trains for those airport passengers forced to decamp at Manchester Piccadilly? There are three car Class 323 units used on the existing hourly Crewe and Manchester Airport services from Manchester Piccadilly, but do these units have enough luggage storage capacity for those unfortunate passengers forced to have to make this enforced change. Will there be seat reservations available on these shuttle services for those who had booked these on the main part of their journey?:roll:

I see no clarion calls for Stansted Airport trains to be subjected to this same diminution of direct through services, as this airport carries a similar passenger loading capacity to Manchester Airport with a dedicated terminal railway station but perhaps this idea will appeal to those seeking to visit inconvenience on airport-bound passengers to Manchester Airport. How about terminating the Stansted Airport trains at Stansted Mountfitchet and telling their airline passengers to decamp and to drag their luggage to the waiting rail shuttle service from there to Stansted Airport.

I do not think that Manchester Airport will be thrilled to find this fait accompli thrust into their lap and I can see National Express making headline posters at all their coach terminals in the Midlands and the North.... "Use us for Manchester Airport with no changes....You know it makes sense."

Has everyone forgotten the proposals contained within the Northern Hub documents for Manchester Airport....was not a fourth platform in these, and if so, why? Was the Ordsall Chord supposed to give First TPE North (or their successors) the need not to perform throat-crossing at Manchester Piccadilly by onward through running to Manchester Victoria? Leeds was stated to have a greatly improved service to Manchester Airport via this new chord.

Motto:- If it's not broke, don't fix it.

 

[WestCoast]

I do agree with Paul, I think it's a major benefit to have services terminating at the airport, even with the reversal needed at Piccadilly. Not everyone is travelling solely on trains to complete their journey. It's an approach often used on the continent, even with InterCity services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

MIA? Miami International?

Do you remember the embarrassment caused to Manchester Airport quite a few years ago when some "bright spark" in advertising decided to conjure up a catchy phrase........" Fly Via MIA".....then to find out they were promoting Miami International Airport. Everything had to be hurriedly cancelled at not a little cost..:roll:

Did no-one at Manchester Airport ever attend any pre-publicity meetings, when they as an airport would surely know the code for their own airport was MAN. Evidentially not.

 

[Lampshade]

Let us look at the suggestion made by some forum members concerning terminating some Manchester Airport services at Manchester Piccadilly and passengers for Manchester Airport using a shuttle service from Manchester Piccadilly. The Class 185 units are three car units with "X" amount of luggage capacity. Are you saying that the same amount of luggage capacity will be provided on the shuttle trains for those airport passengers forced to decamp at Manchester Piccadilly? There are three car Class 323 units used on the existing hourly Crewe and Manchester Airport services from Manchester Piccadilly, but do these units have enough luggage storage capacity for those unfortunate passengers forced to have to make this enforced change. Will there be seat reservations available on these shuttle services for those who had booked these on the main part of their journey?:roll:

My idea for a shuttle service was to convert the 460s to AC operation using PTSOs swapped from the 458s, transferring 323s on Crewe/Airport services to Hazel Grove. Newcastle and Middlesbrough services could then terminate at Piccadilly as the airport shuttles would be 8-car and have a luggage van, so there'd be no problem with luggage provision.

 

[exile]

The Rose Hill Marple branch - an almost miraculous survivor.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My idea for a shuttle service was to convert the 460s to AC operation using PTSOs swapped from the 458s, transferring 323s on Crewe/Airport services to Hazel Grove. Newcastle and Middlesbrough services could then terminate at Piccadilly as the airport shuttles would be 8-car and have a luggage van, so there'd be no problem with luggage provision.

You have made a suggestion that interests me, but I foresee one difficulty in that an 8-coach train plus a baggage car would be too long for any of the three platforms at Manchester Airport. I have to thank Nym for submitting the information that an 8-coach train is the maximum train length at present there, on another thread only a short time ago.

It would only be a very short-term solution until the Ordsall Chord was fully operational.

 

[Minstral25]

Dare I say Gatwick Express?

Yep - the biggest amount of Air transported on the whole Southern Network

 

[Aictos]

What about Letchworth, 3 services to and from London vs the hourly Peterborough service after about 9pm.

No disrespect to locals but Letchworth is well served by FCC.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

but Manchester is the third largest carrier of air passengers in the UK

Think we already mentioned that third place for passenger usage actually goes to Stansted.

The same way people outside of London get fed up with everything being 'London-centric' most people in the North tend to get fed up with everything being 'Manchester-centric'. Shouldn't consideration be given to constructing rail links to Liverpool and Leeds/Bradford airports rather than sending more empty trains to Manchester ?