What is each TOC's over-served service

[Schnellzug]

i think it would definitely make Manchester airport more attractive if they followed the example of Liverpool and renamed it Manchester Noel Gallagher Airport. Or Gary Barlow.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What about Manchester Carlos Tevez Airport. He is loved by both supporters of Citeh and Yewnited, isnt he? They could mark the rebranding by introducing an hourly direct flight to Buenos Aires.

 

[trainplan1]

More a question of curiousity but how well does East Coast do with loadings at Darlington? If I'm right pretty much every train stops there (bar the 05.40 EDB-KX)

Might just be my ignorance but it just seems rather excessive. Still I'm happy to be proven wrong and find every train does very well!

 

[tbtc]

I see no clarion calls for Stansted Airport trains to be subjected to this same diminution of direct through services, as this airport carries a similar passenger loading capacity to Manchester Airport with a dedicated terminal railway station but perhaps this idea will appeal to those seeking to visit inconvenience on airport-bound passengers to Manchester Airport

You've picked a bad example to support your cause there Paul.

Stansted doesn't get a direct train to everywhere in south East Englaind. Instead it gets a frequent shuttle service (15 mins) to central London, plus an hourly service to Cambridge (and on to Peterborough/ Birmingham) and an hourly stopper to Stratford.

There are no direct trains to Norwich/ Kings Lynn/ Ipswich/ Stevenage etc.

So most people using the train to Stansted have to change somewhere, but they seem to be capable of performing this task.

What I am suggesting for Manchester Airport would be a similar "frequent" shuttle service from central Manchester, as well as existing services to Crewe (and suburban Manchester etc). However there's no need for the current mess where every town "needs" to have a direct hourly train to Manchester Airport (which ignores the fact that there are plenty of other airports in northern England).

So, seriously, why do you think that Manchester Airport needs more trains to Picadilly than Sheffield and Leeds combined?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So, seriously, why do you think that Manchester Airport needs more trains to Piccadilly than Sheffield and Leeds combined?

I have never made a claim for Manchester Airport to be served by the number of trains that it has...all I stated was the number of existing services that actually use the station. I think the question that you have to ask yourself is why these services are run and who it was who made determination that these services should run to Manchester Airport. A recent posting stated it is not the TOC who determine these services, so if this is not the case, who is it? If a change of service provision of the type that you propose is to take effect, what steps will have to be taken to bring this proposal to fruition?

I see one line of reasoning running through this discussion forum, which is the train provision to Manchester from Sheffield. As I have stated previously, Northern Rail and East Midlands Trains combine to provide more service provision to and from Sheffield to Manchester than First TPE, so you should really be looking at this option and asking yourself how these two companies can make the extra service provision that you seek. I see no calls for the EMT Norwich to Liverpool train to be terminated at Manchester Piccadilly, in order that a return journey back to Sheffield can be effected with less time delay. To return to the question of First TPE, is it not the case that Sheffield is served by all the First TPE services that serve Cleethorpes?

You also make mention of Leeds in the quote. At present, Leeds is serviced by trains from Manchester Victoria run by Northern on the Calderdale line, by Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly on the First TPE North routes to both Newcastle and to Middlesbrough, by the First TPE service from Liverpool (via Manchester Piccadilly) to Scarborough and by the First TPE South service from Manchester Piccadilly to Hull. Surely this is adequate provision between to two major cities (each with major rail hub status) on either side of the Pennines with two different cross-Pennine routes being utilised.

The service provision status quo on all cross-Pennine services will be eventually determined by two factors. Firstly, both the Northern Rail and the First TPE franchises are drawing to their close and it will be interesting to see how matters may possibly alter once the new franchise provision is set in motion. Secondly, there is the matter of the Ordsall Chord project that has been officially sanctioned and will remove the current throat crossing at Manchester Piccadilly by through running via that new chord to Manchester Victoria. The Northern Hub document has many improvements contained within its pages.

Any changes therefore to the current service provision will be only a short-term solution until these major new proposals come into force. I honestly cannot add any more to what I have said here, save to state once again , the comment made by another member upon this forum in his posting,that the service provision is not determined by the TOC. Whilst I really do sympathise with your Sheffield dilemma (noting the Hope Valley line problems that ensue), I cannot see a resolution that will allow any TOC on that route to effect the service provision that you require.

I am not used to making long postings to explain matters....I think that Nym has the copyright on those lengthy types of epistles.

 

[pemma]

The Rose Hill Marple branch - an almost miraculous survivor.....

It was an oversight in the Beeching report that allowed it to stay open. Many more useful lines were closed.
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The same way people outside of London get fed up with everything being 'London-centric' most people in the North tend to get fed up with everything being 'Manchester-centric'. Shouldn't consideration be given to constructing rail links to Liverpool and Leeds/Bradford airports rather than sending more empty trains to Manchester ?

Yep. Huddersfield has been transport links to Manchester Airport than the closer Leeds Bradford Airport, likewise Newton-le-Willows has better transport links to Manchester Airport than the closer Liverpool Airport.

Merseytravel want to build a tram-train link between the Albert Dock and Liverpool Airport via South Parkway.

 

[william]

Others on this forum have noted how heavily-loaded the Valley lines are, and no fewer than three of the Valleys routes pass through Pontypridd.

How would you propose running adequate services from Cardiff to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert while simultaneously reducing the service between Cardiff and Pontypridd?

Splitting/terminating trains at Ponty would give a more efficient timetable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was an oversight in the Beeching report that allowed it to stay open. Many more useful lines were closed.

After the through line from Rose Hill to Macclesfield (via High Lane) was closed, this only left the current single track section from Marple Wharf Junction to Rose Hill. The station is in a residential area that does have the potential for passenger loading expansion, as was proved by the 2006/7 figure of 70,943 increasing in 2009/10 to 97,780.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Think we already mentioned that third place for passenger usage actually goes to Stansted.

The same way people outside of London get fed up with everything being 'London-centric' most people in the North tend to get fed up with everything being 'Manchester-centric'. Shouldn't consideration be given to constructing rail links to Liverpool and Leeds/Bradford airports rather than sending more empty trains to Manchester ?

The simple and relatively cheap reinstatement of the Halton Curve to bi-directional use would facilitate direct access to [stn]LPY[/stn] from the entire North Wales coast line plus Wrexham via Chester etc.
It seems integrated transport is not the 'in' thing.:cry:

 

[Squaddie]

Splitting/terminating trains at Ponty would give a more efficient timetable.

Or maybe it would simply result in longer journey times, reduced reliability and more overcrowding on these heavily-used commuter routes into the nation's capital.

 

[tbtc]

Splitting/terminating trains at Ponty would give a more efficient timetable.

So Holyhead would have a direct train to Cardiff, but Merthr (etc) wouldn't?

 

[Lampshade]

What I am suggesting for Manchester Airport would be a similar "frequent" shuttle service from central Manchester, as well as existing services to Crewe (and suburban Manchester etc). However there's no need for the current mess where every town "needs" to have a direct hourly train to Manchester Airport (which ignores the fact that there are plenty of other airports in northern England).

My thinking is this; Cleethorpes and TPE North services could terminate at Piccadilly, freeing up pretty much all capacity on the Styal line. The problem then is finding what to do with the Liverpool, Southport, Blackpool and Cumbria/Scotland services, either continue running through to MIA or find somewhere else to terminate.

There could then be a Manchester Airport shuttle service as per Gatwick Express, either out of a reopened Mayfield or dedicate platforms 11 and 12 at Piccadilly, following this pattern:

xx00 and xx30 express to Manchester Airport then stopping to Crewe
xx15 and xx45 stopping to Manchester Airport

Stock-wise, longer trains than the 323s will be needed - AC-ify the 460s.

 

[pemma]

What I am suggesting for Manchester Airport would be a similar "frequent" shuttle service from central Manchester, as well as existing services to Crewe (and suburban Manchester etc). However there's no need for the current mess where every town "needs" to have a direct hourly train to Manchester Airport (which ignores the fact that there are plenty of other airports in northern England).

My thinking is this; Cleethorpes and TPE North services could terminate at Piccadilly, freeing up pretty much all capacity on the Styal line. The problem then is finding what to do with the Liverpool, Southport, Blackpool and Cumbria/Scotland services, either continue running through to MIA or find somewhere else to terminate.

Doing two changes on an Airport trip, whether it involves changing trains or changing on to a bus is off putting. Saying someone from Stalybridge can still get to the Airport by changing is one thing but what about someone from Mossley who already changes at Stalybridge to get to the Airport?

More through services is what the Airport needs. Why not have services like Blackpool to Crewe via Airport and have one service instead of two without anyone losing direct services?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Doing two changes on an Airport trip, whether it involves changing trains or changing on to a bus is off putting. Saying someone from Stalybridge can still get to the Airport by changing is one thing but what about someone from Mossley who already changes at Stalybridge to get to the Airport?

More through services is what the Airport needs. Why not have services like Blackpool to Crewe via Airport and have one service instead of two without anyone losing direct services?

To be fair that is a good point and idea.

I like the idea of a blackpool crewe service especially when it can be all electric. I'd use 319s on it though not have it as a TPE service. Because at the end of the day it doesn't cross the pennines!

Maybe merge TPE with Northern and then have a mini airport franchise?

 

[tbtc]

Doing two changes on an Airport trip, whether it involves changing trains or changing on to a bus is off putting. Saying someone from Stalybridge can still get to the Airport by changing is one thing but what about someone from Mossley who already changes at Stalybridge to get to the Airport?

More through services is what the Airport needs. Why not have services like Blackpool to Crewe via Airport and have one service instead of two without anyone losing direct services?

I totally accept that more changes will be off-putting. But the current set up seems to be too focussed on a simpler journey for people making an annual holiday (instead of concentrating on improving things for regular passengers, simplifying Manchester terminals and avoiding a lot of conflicting movements).

We are too focussed on the tail and not the dog, hence the situation where there are more units/ seats on the (relatively empty) Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly route than there are on busy trans-pennine lines.

We have a DMU shortage at the moment, and yet we have more three coach 185s an hour on this quiet section than we do on the "proper" Transpennine services.

Ideally Manchester Airport station would have been build on the line from Piccadilly to Crewe (and not on a siding), allowing direct trains to use it (it would then be more attractive for longer distance trains to serve - like the Cardiff - Manchester)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Airport is owned by the ten bodies that make up Greater Manchester, unlike most airports that are commercially owned, yet their tenure there has seen the airport develop to a two-runway airport with three terminals. They have prided themselves on improving transport links of all types through links to agencies of all types. The proposed SEMMS A555 link to Manchester Airport, built as far as Handforth from Bramhall, has twice been the subject of the cancellation of the final link from Handforth to Manchester Airport, by Government fiscal stringencies at the time of final project evaluation.

Manchester Airport has a relatively new three platform heavy rail station (with a fourth platform planned in the Northern Hub proposals) that forms a transport interchange with a modern bus and coach station and 2016 will see the completion of the Manchester Metrolink system new extension into this interchange. The bodies who control Manchester Airport are looking to bring new rail services in the future to take advantage of the proposed new fourth platform capacity, but I see no support from them for any proposed reduction of rail service provision of currently run existing services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More through services is what the Airport needs. Why not have services like Blackpool to Crewe via Airport and have one service instead of two without anyone losing direct services?

Do ATW still have hopes for running services to Manchester Airport ?

 

[Eagle]

Do ATW still have hopes for running services to Manchester Airport ?

They already run at least one...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They already run at least one...

Would this be the 0533 Manchester Airport to Llandudno service?

 

[Eagle]

Would this be the 0533 Manchester Airport to Llandudno service?

Yeah. Can't remember if there's a return.

 

[gnolife]

Manchester Airport is served by the following ATW services
18:49 from Chester, arriving 20:18
18:44 from Llandudno, arriving 21:18
5:33 to Llandudno
20:32 to Chester

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Airport is served by the following ATW services
18:49 from Chester, arriving 20:18
18:44 from Llandudno, arriving 21:18
5:33 to Llandudno
20:32 to Chester

Do you think that ATW will be looking to establish a more frequent service if this is possible, subject to path availability being available? I now realise that there may be a reason why some members in their postings have suggested terminating some existing services to Manchester Airport at Manchester Piccadilly, in order to allow new through services such as the ATW ones to take their place.

Sometimes you cannot see the wood for the trees..:roll: