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What is the best EMU in Britain?

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tbtc

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The space in the vehicle ends is being used for toilets and luggage stowage on the IEP trains. This leaves the full saloon length between the doors free to be filled entirely with seating.

Exactly - seems like a really practical use of space, means passengers no longer have to walk past the toilet to get between the platform and their seats, improves "flow", allows the carriage to have a tapered end... IEP is a pretty good idea isn't it :D
 
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jopsuk

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if the luggage racks are in the "ends" beyond the doors, that'll play merry havoc with passenger flow.
 

Class377/5

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According to therailwaycentre.com, 450/0s are 170 tonnes and 377/1s & 377/2s are 173.6 tonnes.

Yes, now fit the 450 with the transformer the 377s carry around.

The Electrostars are almost certainly lighter once you remove the advantage the Class 450 obtains from not carrying several tonnes of transformer, switchgear and pantographs around.

The 450 and 377/1 are both DC only units so can be compared.
 

LE Greys

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if the luggage racks are in the "ends" beyond the doors, that'll play merry havoc with passenger flow.

They do that already, especially on EC HSTs. Thing is, will passengers trust that their luggage won't disappear if it is out of their sight?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Me to! The wine they make. Oh I love them to bits. They became my favourites after the 312's retired. And they were lovely old things that also made a great noise. And the suspension was basically in the springy bench style seat. And the noise off the old bolted rails! Oh the nostalgia is to much to take.

IN FGE Livery


Ken:cry:

Now those were nice, but I think I preferred them in NSE - although that's probably coloured by where I remember seeing them.

To me, the ultimate GE units have to be the 309s, especially the ones with a pantograph directly above one cab.
 

F1Ken

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Now those were nice, but I think I preferred them in NSE - although that's probably coloured by where I remember seeing them.

To me, the ultimate GE units have to be the 309s, especially the ones with a pantograph directly above one cab.

I liked them in both. NSE really suited them and so did that FGE livery in my opinion. Ether way they were lovely. I was lucky enough to travel from manningtree to London on one shortly before they were withdrawn. It was a surprise and a sad journey. Got a 360 on the way back which was there replacement and boy what a different world.

If you like your 321's this video is for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7yWDXNLUJ0

Ken
 

bronzeonion

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The only good thing about practically any of the MK3 based EMU's is the lovely sound the motors make, apart from that they are pretty crap! Apart from the 442 of course.
 

starrymarkb

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Exactly - seems like a really practical use of space, means passengers no longer have to walk past the toilet to get between the platform and their seats, improves "flow", allows the carriage to have a tapered end... IEP is a pretty good idea isn't it :D

A bit like a 158/159 ;)
 

RAGNARØKR

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Exactly - seems like a really practical use of space, means passengers no longer have to walk past the toilet to get between the platform and their seats, improves "flow", allows the carriage to have a tapered end... IEP is a pretty good idea isn't it :D
The announcements constantly remind people to keep their luggage with them at all times. How do you do that if the luggage shelves are on the far side of a vestibule? But I agree that 26 metre vehicles are an excellent idea if they are like this on the inside and the system can accommodate them without spending half as much again as the vehicles cost in the first place. And there isn't a diesel engine throbbing away under the floor.

176522347_6a0c1ab0ca.jpg
or even this with 2+3 seating :lol: which is 3.5 metres wide.
3290538957_ebb805d5ba.jpg


If trains like this will not fit on the system then you cut your coat according to the cloth, and if people continue to get fatter and fatter the seating will have to be 2+1 in standard class too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They do that already, especially on EC HSTs. Thing is, will passengers trust that their luggage won't disappear if it is out of their sight?
Did you hear the story about the man who systematically stole luggage from trains? One day he opened his loot and found the suitcase contained an IRA bomb.

His confession to the police must have been embarrassing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The space in the vehicle ends is being used for toilets and luggage stowage on the IEP trains. This leaves the full saloon length between the doors free to be filled entirely with seating.
Yes but most people want to keep their luggage close by where they are sitting. And people are constantly being told to do that "for security reasons".
 

starrymarkb

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RAGNARØKR;1259492 said:
The announcements constantly remind people to keep their luggage with them at all times. How do you do that if the luggage shelves are on the far side of a vestibule?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes but most people want to keep their luggage close by where they are sitting. And people are constantly being told to do that "for security reasons".

The script for that comes from the Home Office/Ministry of Justice*, IIRC it has to be announced at certain intervals (whether the train has stopped or not) or the TOC gets in trouble. The Home Office doesn't care about the layout of the trains that the DfT specify! Whitehall doesn't do joint thinking!


*Not sure which is responsible since the split.
 

RAGNARØKR

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The script for that comes from the Home Office/Ministry of Justice*, IIRC it has to be announced at certain intervals (whether the train has stopped or not) or the TOC gets in trouble. The Home Office doesn't care about the layout of the trains that the DfT specify! Whitehall doesn't do joint thinking!


*Not sure which is responsible since the split.
Seems reasonable advice anyway. You would want to keep your luggage near you anyway, surely? And the best place is between seat backs like here.

188018182_d958283b74.jpg


Not at the end of the vehicle with a vestibule in between you and your property. Out of the way and it doesn't need to be lifted up anywhere.
 

HSTEd

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Between seat backs doesn't work with airline seating which is the dominant type now....
 

RAGNARØKR

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Between seat backs doesn't work with airline seating which is the dominant type now....
A good reason for having plenty of seats which are back to back. In theory they can be closer together airline style but then luggage shelves have to be provided. Or the luggage can be left in the doorways FGW style.

I was on a Thalys train between Brussels and Cologne where all the cases had to be unloaded at Aachen so that people could get on and off, then the cases were put back on again.

After that I gave up on taking the train on that route, so took my business to DFDS and DSB and no complaints - do Harwich - Esbjerg twice a year each way. I would certainly not go back to using the train.
 

jopsuk

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RAGNARØKR;1259654 said:
Seems reasonable advice anyway. You would want to keep your luggage near you anyway, surely? And the best place is between seat backs like here.

There's space for persons case there. Two, maybe. Not four
 

RAGNARØKR

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There's space for persons case there. Two, maybe. Not four
There is room for cases only if the seats are in facing bays. There is next to no room under an airline seat.

This feature was introduced by the LMS in the 1920s when the trend away from side corridor stock began. At that time and for long afterwards - until well into the 1960s, larger items of luggage - up to trunk size, and bicycles - would be labelled and left in a locked cage adjacent to the guard.
 

Lee_Again

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For me it's the 365. Why?

Excellent ambiance - even after all these years.
Excellent balance between bays and airline seats.
2+2 seating throughout.
First Class in the right places.
Seat style choice in First Class.
Windows at almost every seat.
Doors (which are excellent) in the right places.
Excellent performance.
I've been on '000s and never broke down once.
Directable AirCon (come on IC TOC's).
They stop at my station (hey, it's important).

Back in the day... loved sitting in the buffet on 442's or the Fist Class compartment on same units. They're rubbish now - ruined IMHO.
 

Lee_Again

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That's not aircon! It's just forced air ventilation- nothing more than fans sucking in ambient air and blasting it at you

No matter. On a hot day it's most welcome. And it is cooler, air con or not. It doesn't just blast hot air at you.
 

D365

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The ball vents always get stuck... But they are better than nothing, for sure.
 

b0b

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Class 303 before refurbishment when you could see out the front :D
 

HSTEd

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Things with jumper cables on the front.

Especially 442s.

It looks so simple and businesslike.... although I am one of those rare types that likes things like boxes on wheels. Pointless styling will just look stupid in 25 years, as the Pendos already do. (Why couldn't we get Pendolinos with continental style noses that look like Cl91/DVT front ends? the curves look tacky)
 

LE Greys

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Things with jumper cables on the front.

Especially 442s.

It looks so simple and businesslike.... although I am one of those rare types that likes things like boxes on wheels. Pointless styling will just look stupid in 25 years, as the Pendos already do. (Why couldn't we get Pendolinos with continental style noses that look like Cl91/DVT front ends? the curves look tacky)

I agree with you there, but wasn't the styling done by the same people who did the Fiat Pinto? This particular fad went through the first decade of this century, and its still going on (look at BMW headlights and silly forced acronyms like 'FLIRT' for an EMU). Surely, the functional front ends of BR looked much better, any nod to fashion dates badly.
 

D365

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I agree with you there, but wasn't the styling done by the same people who did the Fiat Pinto? This particular fad went through the first decade of this century, and its still going on (look at BMW headlights and silly forced acronyms like 'FLIRT' for an EMU). Surely, the functional front ends of BR looked much better, any nod to fashion dates badly.

I wonder how much an updated 317/2-6 cab would cost compared to a *star/Desiro cab. Not the nicest but utilitarian, I reckon. Sturdy old beasts the PEPs and Mk3 EMUs are.
 

RAGNARØKR

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I agree with you there, but wasn't the styling done by the same people who did the Fiat Pinto? This particular fad went through the first decade of this century, and its still going on (look at BMW headlights and silly forced acronyms like 'FLIRT' for an EMU). Surely, the functional front ends of BR looked much better, any nod to fashion dates badly.
442s and Pendolinos were both by Jones Garrard.

The need to minimise air resistance and provide crashworthiness and good forward visibility are the principal influences on the design of the front ends of trains. The trouble seems to come when there is an attempt to add styling to functionality.
 

LE Greys

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RAGNARØKR;1268354 said:
442s and Pendolinos were both by Jones Garrard.

The need to minimise air resistance and provide crashworthiness and good forward visibility are the principal influences on the design of the front ends of trains. The trouble seems to come when there is an attempt to add styling to functionality.

That's odd, the 442 is a handsome beast even if the cable covers are missing. Mind you, think of Stanier's streamlined Coronation when they decided to paint her 'utility' black, or Collett's bulbous additions to King Henry V and you can see how one designer's attempt to style something functional can cause problems. It's amazing how the A4s got away with it, although they do aid forward visibility. Gresley is supposed to have got the idea from Bugatti, and the shape lives on with the 180s (is that a co-incidence?).
 
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