What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?

[Bletchleyite]

For those who remember the reservations that I had from "day one" on the Class 230 project, which was said to be unfair and that I should wait until "refurbished/re-engineered" units had been produced ("new lamps for old", being a timely adage in this pantomime season with Adrian Shooter taking the part of the Genie of the Lamp) and actually running in service, I acceded to these requests and waited for the results of the one year project on the Nuneaton to Coventry line, but a unit decided to self-immolate and that project was cancelled. Time passed and three Class 230 units were ordered for the Marston Vale line and this particular thread has been one that I have watched from afar, but do consider this to be an opportune time for making a posting.

Yes, I do think your views, which I opposed at the time, have been proven to be correct, and I'm quite sad to say that but they are simply not fit for purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So “fit only for scrap” isn’t a complete over-reaction, then?

Have you tried using the Marston Vale recently? I don't use it often but every single journey I have made recently has either been late or cancelled, and I think only one of those was due to LNR's staffing issues.

I'm sure @DarloRich will be on-side, too.

They are rubbish, and LNR need to be on the market for a replacement.

 

[43096]

Have you tried using the Marston Vale recently? I don't use it often but every single journey I have made recently has either been late or cancelled, and I think only one of those was due to LNR's staffing issues.

I'm sure @DarloRich will be on-side, too.

They are rubbish, and LNR need to be on the market for a replacement.

Obviously a pointless exercise trying to have any form of reasoned conversation with you, if you think a fire alarm fault makes something fit for scrap.

 

[samuelmorris]

They are not providing a reliable service after how many months now? While elsewhere 40 year old units provide a reliable service? And that's with three of the things - were there two they might as well buy a couple of buses.

I don't think it's hyperbole to say that they are rubbish and the situation is beyond a joke.

No, the latter is fair comment. 'fit only for scrap', however, that rather is hyperbole mate.

The 345s posted similarly dire figures at this point in their life but people weren't writing them off as fit only for scrap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously a pointless exercise trying to have any form of reasoned conversation with you, if you think a fire alarm fault makes something fit for scrap.

The fact that there are repeated and continuous failures on a wide range of systems is the issue.

 

[BucksBones]

Obviously a pointless exercise trying to have any form of reasoned conversation with you, if you think a fire alarm fault makes something fit for scrap.

Oh come on, that's clearly not what Bletchleyite was saying.

I don't agree that the project was doomed to failure from the outset as Xenophon PCDGS would have it; I have always considered it an excellent way of re-using resources (which, in these environmentally-conscious times surely has to be applauded) as well as being an ideal solution for the requirements of branch line operations for TOCs that are struggling with inadequate stock levels.

Sadly, though, Vivarail evidently lack the technical expertise required to carry out the conversions because
the trains don't work, which
should be glaringly obvious to anyone looking at the appalling reliability record.

Edit: LNR need to send them back to Vivarail and get a couple of pacers quickly PRMed by locking out the loo or something. Needs must. Vivarail should then have a good, hard look at the conversion and try again. Whether they'll ever get it right is debatable; I strongly suspect they will indeed be scrapped before too long.

 

[Chris125]

Back in the real world Tony Miles has posted on another forum that MTIN has seen a significant improvement in the latest figures to over 2.5K, correlating with Keith's analysis over recent weeks and the relative quiet in this thread...

 

[samuelmorris]

Back in the real world Tony Miles has posted on another forum that MTIN has seen a significant improvement in the latest figures to over 2.5K, correlating with Keith's analysis over recent weeks and the relative quiet in this thread...

I can believe that, there were reports in this thread of weeks where the only cancellations were staff related. That wouldn't happen if they were still only posting 400.

 

[DarloRich]

So “fit only for scrap” isn’t a complete over-reaction, then?

It is an over reaction. HOWEVER the service has been completely awful for long periods. Performance and reliability have been dire and unacceptable.

It has not been and is not good enough

 

[DarloRich]

Back in the real world Tony Miles has posted on another forum that MTIN has seen a significant improvement in the latest figures to over 2.5K, correlating with Keith's analysis over recent weeks and the relative quiet in this thread...

Wow. Fantastic. Meanwhile us mere users have been in the bus or shanks pony rail again this week

I dont care if the trains work at 1400 on a Tuesday. I care that at 7 or 8 am and 5/6/7 PM the trains turn up. Too often they dont.

This week has slipped backwards again.

 

[43096]

Wow. Fantastic. Meanwhile us mere users have been in the bus or shanks pony rail again this week

I dont care if the trains work at 1400 on a Tuesday. I care that at 7 or 8 am and 5/6/7 PM the trains turn up. Too often they dont.

This week has slipped backwards again.

Is that down to fleet issues or staff shortages?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that down to fleet issues or staff shortages?

The failure that knackered me yesterday on the 0624 was caused by two of the units being unserviceable.

It's a simple double ended rural branch line with almost nothing interacting with it with a simple, slack timetable with long layovers. There is no excuse whatsoever for punctuality or reliability to be under 99.5% at worst. We should easily have weeks with it at 100%.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Back in the real world Tony Miles has posted on another forum that MTIN has seen a significant improvement in the latest figures to over 2.5K, correlating with Keith's analysis over recent weeks and the relative quiet in this thread...

Yes, he posted that at the exact same time the fire brigade were dealing with 230003. Usual reliable reporting.

 

[Chris125]

Wow. Fantastic. Meanwhile us mere users have been in the bus or shanks pony rail again this week.

Feel free to complain about the poor service in an appropriate thread, but this one is titled 'What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?, and all the evidence in recent weeks suggests that there's been a significant improvement and train faults now play only a minor role in the line's wider difficulties.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Feel free to complain about the poor service in an appropriate thread, but this one is titled 'What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?, and all the evidence in recent weeks suggests that there's been a significant improvement and train faults now play only a minor role in the line's wider difficulties.

Is it not true that the wording of the thread title stating "the cause" as a singularity is one that is misleading, as there have been a number of causes (plurality)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Feel free to complain about the poor service in an appropriate thread, but this one is titled 'What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?, and all the evidence in recent weeks suggests that there's been a significant improvement and train faults now play only a minor role in the line's wider difficulties.

A cynic would suggest that has nothing to do with improvements to the units and everything to do with the more moderate temperatures.

 

[Chris125]

Is it not true that the wording of the thread title stating "the cause" as a singularity is one that is misleading, as there have been a number of causes (plurality)?

Not necessarily, a previous post described an errant signal mistakenly shutting down the gensets whose rectification has led to much greater reliability - if that was the difference between an MTIN in the hundreds and one in the thousands then perhaps the title wasn't far off?

 

[DarloRich]

Feel free to complain about the poor service in an appropriate thread, but this one is titled 'What is the cause of unreliability of Vivarail Class 230 trains?, and all the evidence in recent weeks suggests that there's been a significant improvement and train faults now play only a minor role in the line's wider difficulties.

Thanks for the lecture. I use the train every day except Sunday when we have no service so I am comfortable with my views and opinions

In recent weeks things have got better. This week has been poor again. It might have improved but it still isnt good enough. But hey I am only a daily user of the line so what do I know?

As suggested above it may just be the cold weather masking the issues

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not necessarily, a previous post described an errant signal mistakenly shutting down the gensets whose rectification has led to much greater reliability - if that was the difference between an MTIN in the hundreds and one in the thousands then perhaps the title wasn't far off?

In the early days of service, were there not other faults that were a cause of operational problems on the Marston Vale line?

 

[samuelmorris]

Not necessarily, a previous post described an errant signal mistakenly shutting down the gensets whose rectification has led to much greater reliability - if that was the difference between an MTIN in the hundreds and one in the thousands then perhaps the title wasn't far off?

Agreed, but then from another viewpoint, 2400, while a great improvement, still puts them at best on a par with the country's worst sprinter fleets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, but then from another viewpoint, 2400, while a great improvement, still puts them at best on a par with the country's worst sprinter fleets.

The 150s were rarely that unreliable in the past, though the 153 often failed and had to have a replacement run from Brum.

 

[DarloRich]

Is that down to fleet issues or staff shortages?

Fleet issues mainly. Staff problems occasionally. No trains at all on the last strike day

 

[Chris125]

In recent weeks things have got vetter. This week has been poor again. It might have improved but it still isnt good enough. But hey I am only a daily user of the line so waht do I know?

I didn't suggest otherwise, but this is a thread about the reliability of the 230s and not the service generally.

Agreed, but then from another viewpoint, 2400, while a great improvement, still puts them at best on a par with the country's worst sprinter fleets.

It's the improvement more than the number that bodes well for the future.

 

[DarloRich]

More cancellations this evening. Must have got at least 25 miles in since the last one

 

[43096]

More cancellations this evening. Must have got at least 25 miles in since the last one

Which RTT is suggesting is down to train crew issues. When I last checked that was nothing to do with VivaRail and therefore off-topic for this thread.

 

[DarloRich]

Which RTT is suggesting is down to train crew issues. When I last checked that was nothing to do with VivaRail and therefore off-topic for this thread.

Ok. I will comment on what I like. I use the trains daily so dont care what rtt or a spotter mag or anyone else says. I know what is going on. The service is crap. I no longer care if it is the train or the staff. I care that I am in a cab home again or walking in the rain and the cold.

Btw it wasnt train crew problems earlier in the week whe the train failed or the numerous times the things run late on one engine making me late for work or late home.

 

[43096]

Ok. I will comment on what I like. I use the trains daily so dont care what rtt or a spotter mag or anyone else says. I know what is going on. The service is crap. I no longer care if it is the train or the staff. I care that I am in a cab home again or walking in the rain and the cold.

Btw it wasnt train crew problems earlier in the week whe the train failed or the numerous times the things run late on one engine making me late for work or late home.

You're free to post what you like, but if you're going to post stuff that is inaccurate in attempt to support an agenda, expect to be called out on it. There's pretty obviously an agenda going on here with some seemingly wanted this to fail.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in 12 months time, Viva Rail are picking up a "Silver Spanner" from Roger Ford.

 

[DarloRich]

You're free to post what you like, but if you're going to post stuff that is inaccurate in attempt to support an agenda, expect to be called out on it. There's pretty obviously an agenda going on here with some seemingly wanted this to fail.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in 12 months time, Viva Rail are picking up a "Silver Spanner" from Roger Ford.

There is no agenda from me other than wanting the service I pay a large amount of money for to actually work when the timetable promises it should. That doesnt seem unreasonable frankly.

If you look back you will see I have been extremely supportive of the idea behind and use of these trains on my line. However patience is now exhausted. The service is unacceptably poor. The good news story of providing a much better customer ambience and higher quality facilities has been utterly lost. Passenger numbers that were on the up are now declining as people flock back to thier cars. 6 months + of shocking performance has seen to that

And dont get me started on the obession there is with Roger Ford!

PS I dont know what a silver spanner award is. Can I trade it in against the sadly regular taxi fare needed to get to work becuase the train isnt running?

 

[hooverboy]

There is no agenda from me other than wanting the service I pay a large amount of money for to actually work when the timetable promises it should. That doesnt seem unreasonable frankly.

If you look back you will see I have been extremely supportive of the idea behind and use of these trains on my line. However patience is now exhausted. The service is unacceptably poor. The good news story of providing a much better customer ambience and higher quality facilities has been utterly lost. Passenger numbers that were on the up are now declining as people flock back to thier cars. 6 months + of shocking performance has seen to that

And dont get me started on the obession there is with Roger Ford!

PS I dont know what a silver spanner award is. Can I trade it in against the sadly regular taxi fare needed to get to work becuase the train isnt running?

it's a shame really, the concept was quite good.

I get where WMT were coming from, ie a low cost alternative to provide basic transportation,
but sadly the gamble hasn't paid off.

for WMT now they really do need to look at remedial measures to provide the service, the trust is going to take longer to rebuild.
we know that 153's aren't an option as of next month.
what is available off lease as a replacement now?
any 150's going spare?
2 car stadler?...dream on!
I'd suggest if the carriages are too long then WMT need to invest in some temporary platform to cover

to be honest it would probably be quicker to wire the whole thing and rescue a couple of 313's from the scrapheap.At least it would run.
abbey line is not particularly busy and the 319 trundles along that quite happily.

if we're really lucky we'll get the DRS 37 short set!

 

[DarloRich]

it's a shame really, the concept was quite good.

I get where WMT were coming from, ie a low cost alternative to provide basic transportation,
but sadly the gamble hasn't paid off.

for WMT now they really do need to look at remedial measures to provide the service, the trust is going to take longer to rebuild.
we know that 153's aren't an option as of next month.
what is available off lease as a replacement now?
any 150's going spare?
2 car stadler?...dream on!
I'd suggest if the carriages are too long then WMT need to invest in some temporary platform to cover

to be honest it would probably be quicker to wire the whole thing and rescue a couple of 313's from the scrapheap.At least it would run.

We need to be realistic. The only option is to make the trains work. It has looked, twice, since introduction that this had been achieved only for it to fall away.

Next week needs to be rock solid to show this week was a blip