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What is the Covid-19 Exit Strategy of 'Zero Covid' countries such as Hong Kong?

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43066

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Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

So in other words, because you can cope with restrictions, you aren’t bothered about how they affect others who cannot.


Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England?

I doubt it’s irksome to many of us, perhaps those with friends or family down under who are suffering. Many of us (myself included) couldn’t care less what happens in Australia/NZ, beyond watching on in bemusement and being grateful we don’t live where you do.

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?

You keep repeating this childish soundbite. Prior to 2019, presumably you accepted that flu kills thousands of people every year, and that society isn’t locked down to “prevent it”. If so, why isn’t this “sacrificing grannies” (flu posing a similar risk to Covid in a post vaccine population).

Or are you saying you wish to live under perpetual restrictions?
 
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43096

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Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

Which of the restrictions applied to whom and where upset you the most? Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England? I've written of the reasons states and territory governments decided to do so, and that they seemed to have enhanced their standings in the electorate (with the likely exception of NSW - Australia's least competent state government which was the least impressive in managing things, and almost as bad as the Feds who are about to be thrown out of office).

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?
As you’re a straw poll of one, I’ll offer the opinion of a friend who lives in Australia: “We need to crack on with normal life”. She’s absolutely fed up of restrictions.
 

Dent

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Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

What "recovery plan"? Vaccination has already happened, yet they still haven't even stopped imposing restrictions, let alone made a plan to recover from the damage done by those restrictions. You refer to "a period" of hardship, but if they never get rid of restrictions then is not a period but a lifetime of hardship, and a lifetime of hardship for all future generations.
 

Simon11

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Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

My sister has worked and lived in the Australia for nearly 4-5 years. Due to covid and your restrictions, I haven't been able to see her for nearly three years now and there doesn't appear to be much likelihood of this changing to have a proper free border like most other countries now have. If she leaves Australia to visit family and friends in the UK, she knows that she is very unlikely to be let back into Australia, despite paying all her taxes and following laws while working over there. On top of this, I've now had my first son and thus she is now proud to be an Auntie- unfortunately she is unlikely to be able to see him for a significant time..... She also wasn't able to attend her nan's funeral in the UK just a few months ago...

I also work with quite a few Australia colleagues here in the UK, and they are also desperately wanting to see their families and friends back home..... Most haven't been back for a few years now.

If you think that is okay and reasonable compared to the minor health concerns from Covid, then your view appears quite selfish!
 
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Freightmaster

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My sister has worked and lived in the Australia for nearly 4-5 years. Due to covid and your restrictions, I haven't been able to see her for nearly three years now and there doesn't appear to be much likelihood of this changing to have a proper free border like most other countries now have. If she leaves Australia to visit family and friends in the UK, she knows that she is very unlikely to be let back into Australia, despite paying all her taxes and following laws while working over there. On top of this, I've now had my first son and thus she is now proud to be an Auntie- unfortunately she is unlikely to be able to see him for a significant time..... She also wasn't able to attend her nan's funeral in the UK just a few months ago...

I also work with quite a few Australia colleagues here in the UK, and they are also desperately wanting to see their families and friends back home..... Most haven't been back for a few years now.
I'n sorry, but that can't be right - according to OzLoon, movement restrictions imposed due to Covid are "fair and logical". :rolleyes:


The main issue that the Antipodean contributors to this thread keep refusing to address
is not whether their Covid response was 'fair and logical' during 2020 and/or or 2021,
as that is all water under the bridge now, but when will they be able to open up their
countries fully to international travel without onerous quarantine requirements
.




MARK
 

OzLoon

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I'n sorry, but that can't be right - according to OzLoon, movement restrictions imposed due to Covid are "fair and logical". :rolleyes:


The main issue that the Antipodean contributors to this thread keep refusing to address
is not whether their Covid response was 'fair and logical' during 2020 and/or or 2021,
as that is all water under the bridge now, but when will they be able to open up their
countries fully to international travel without onerous quarantine requirements
.




MARK

OK - now I get it! The concern expressed about our restrictions wasn't because you were worried about us, but because you were worried about *you*. Now I understand why people in a tiny overcrowded de-natured cold and damp place 20,000kms away are so keen to tell us how wrong we are - it's because you can't get in.

I thought it was because you're all medical experts in epidemiology, or free-spirited sovereign-citizen libertarians.

Movement across the international borders is a federal government responsibility. And so is quarantine, but because of how poorly they managed that, essentially it was the states and territories which had to create the quarantine protocols. As I've written a number of times, I don't think the Feds have done well except for finally making some transfer payments to businesses in order to keep employees paid.

Oz is not the only country with closed borders, and the sanctity of sovereignty over borders is a special issue for this PM and government in particular which is why it's been handled by the Feds in this unsubtle way. I do hope none of the criticism of access into Australia is not being made by Brexit supporters, who should be completely on-board with a country deciding who can enter. It is very distressing that friends and rellos of Oz citizens can't meet up, and that clearly is something the Feds are feeling pressure about from the huge proportion of us who are born elsewhere or whose parents of grandparents were.

But stemming the free flow of pommies into Australia was at the lower end of the restrictions applying here over the last couple of years, most of which had a real and tangible effect on our daily lives. We got on with it because we bought into the logic of it, and we recognised that abiding by them was an important part of looking after each other and not being a dick-head. We had plenty of examples elsewhere across the Anglosphere and direct knowledge in migrant communities of happenings in their homelands to know what is the result of an absence of protocols and community support for them.

I hope our borders can open soon and the backpackers and students can return and enjoy our fabulous country again. Even pommies :)

You keep repeating this childish soundbite. Prior to 2019, presumably you accepted that flu kills thousands of people every year, and that society isn’t locked down to “prevent it”. If so, why isn’t this “sacrificing grannies” (flu posing a similar risk to Covid in a post vaccine population).

Or are you saying you wish to live under perpetual restrictions?

Oz has a well-patronised federally-funded annual flu-shot campaign with special emphasis on the vulnerable precisely because we don't believe in sacrificing grannies. But if you are upset at the reference, perhaps you shouldn't advocate a let 'er rip strategy on the grounds that only the elderly would be at risk - that's not my preferred policy.
 
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bramling

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Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

Which of the restrictions applied to whom and where upset you the most? Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England? I've written of the reasons states and territory governments decided to do so, and that they seemed to have enhanced their standings in the electorate (with the likely exception of NSW - Australia's least competent state government which was the least impressive in managing things, and almost as bad as the Feds who are about to be thrown out of office).

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?

There does seem to an element of winning the battle but losing the war with your argument.

So you feel that a period of hardship is worthwhile. Okay, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. However one then has to consider what this period of hardship is intended to achieve, especially bearing in mind that cases *will* increase again at the point when the restrictions come off. It therefore follows that your period of hardship is buying time. Once the population is vaccinated, what are you then waiting to do with the time your period of hardship is buying?

When considered against the numerous negative consequence of restrictions or lockdown measures, I’d say there has to be a pretty compelling change in circumstances which you’re waiting for, especially set against the backdrop of a virus where the median age of mortality is *above* average life expectancy.

In the U.K. we’ve essentially all had a year or so knocked off being able to live our lives in the way we’d like, probably a bit more for those of us whose hobbies involve doing things around the country. Worse if you’d spent years building up a viable business to have the balance sheet plunged into turmoil. I’m in my 30s so I can cope with this, hopefully I will have plenty more years (though none of us knows how long we have). But I’d be pretty aggrieved if were at a stage in life where I was really counting down the days and wished to enjoy whatever time I had left.

This also ties in with my observation which is that it hasn’t been the “grannies” calling for restrictions, but 40-somethings speaking on their behalf. Coincidentally the self-same 40-somethings who for nearly two years have relished the fact that they haven’t have to get up in the morning to get the train to work in the office…
 

yorkie

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If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".
Restrictions result in poor mental and physical health actually.
It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning".
Well, we've won. We're now free. We've lost many battles but it's now over and ultimately we won the war. There will be no more restrictions in England.

And if people who are pro-restriction are unhappy at England opening up, that makes it all the better :)
My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.
Good citizenry is uniting against restrictions for the common good.
The Kiwis have this in their national DNA, as do most Aussies. I think it's even likely in parts of the UK.
I've seen the authoritarianism that's been going on in NZ and Aus and it's pretty shocking.

Let's be clear, whether or not restrictions were justified or proportionate in the early stages of the pandemic is a debate that could be never-ending and for which there are no easy answers.

But going forward, "Zero Covid" as a concept is absolutely dead; we have vaccines which offer excellent protection against severe disease; everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2 and we will reach endemic equilibrium.
Which of the restrictions applied to whom and where upset you the most? Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England?
Do France "let 'er rip" with all their restrictions? France has much higher cases than England, so I am puzzled to understand your logic.

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?
Does this same principle apply in bad 'flu seasons?

It has been a fascinating study. I think we are doing a bit better than most here in Oz, and I'm proud of that.
I wouldn't be proud of living in a place with rampant authoritarianism.

I think our national strategy has been to try to minimise spread and infections needing hospital care until such time as we have a very large proportion of residents vaxxed.
Given you are a relatively isolated island that was an option available to you, but not us in Europe.

There are some dingbats about, mostly in the capital cities, who've not taken well to this collective responsibility imperative, and have arced up about it, looking like incoherent gooses.
Dingbats are those who call for more and/or continuing restrictions.

I'm triple-vaxxed as of yesterday, and all my circle of friends and rellos are too.
It's prudent to be vaccinated and indeed the UK is highly vaccinated but do remember you are still going to be infected with Omicron.

I don't know anyone who is blasé about covid, or who reckons the "let 'er rip" idea is the right way to go.
Is the French model of strict restrictions and high cases the way we should have gone?

I don't know how Kiwis think of their approach, but they are even more staunch than bush Aussies, so I reckon they'll take things into their stride without whingeing.
If the rules are not relaxed in due course, they will "start whingeing" at having their lives put on hold, sooner or later.

If you think that is okay and reasonable compared to the minor health concerns from Covid, then your view appears quite selfish!
People who call for restrictions are indeed very selfish, but they cannot see it, and are obsessed with calling others selfish.
 
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farleigh

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OzLoon - do you think England is acting dangerously in lifting restrictions?

If so, what do you think will happen as they are lifted?

Cards on the table - I am delighted with the freedoms we have but I am interested in your view?
 

yorkie

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Here is a graph showing the new daily confirmed case rates for the past ~10 weeks for selected countries:
1643237226941.png
From the graph above, the latest data (25 Jan 22) is:
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people on Jan 25, 2022

France 5,436.72
Australia 2,133.14
Germany 1,475.23
United Kingdom 1,363.08
Country-by-country data on confirmed cases

As you can see, there are more cases in Australia than the UK, despite residents of Australia apparently claiming most of us in the UK are letting the virus "rip", whatever that's meant to mean.

Of course, both Australia and the UK are dwarfed by France, with it's mask and vaccine passport mandates and other strict restrictions.

Most cases are asymptomatic and I think a lot are only discovered in the UK due to the huge number of tests we do.

Australia probably has many more undiagnosed "cases" due to carrying out much less testing. Check out the test positivity rates:
testpositivity.png

In the latest set of data, Australia's positivity rate is over 34% (it was 45% only a few days ago) while the UK is under 7%.

If the countries that are letting the virus "rip" are seeing fewer cases than countries that are imposing onerous restrictions, what does that say about the value and effectiveness of such restrictions?

OzLoon - do you think England is acting dangerously in lifting restrictions?

If so, what do you think will happen as they are lifted?

Cards on the table - I am delighted with the freedoms we have but I am interested in your view?
If a rise happens in England it will be due to the increased fitness of the BA.2 sub-variant of Omicron, not due to increased restrictions, but it will be interesting to see what claims @OzLoon makes and I look forward to revisiting this in a few weeks time :)
 
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seagull

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I'd live anywhere in Oz or EnZed before I'd want to live anywhere in the UK - There's nowhere here with a PM or Premier as whacko as your man and his crew, not even close.
I'd reckon there'd be a significantly higher proportion of England-dwellers who'd rather they were living in in New Zealand than of Kiwis who'd rather be living in England.
I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.
Thatcher's "there's no such thing as society" never found much fertile ground here, especially in the regions and remote areas.
No-one here, thankfully, proposed that grannie-sacrifice was the solution however. I think we are a lot more community-minded than that.
Even 20,000kms away, I can see why that isn't your experience with your man and his team. I'd certainly not want to swap places with you.
Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?
Now I understand why people in a tiny overcrowded de-natured cold and damp place 20,000kms away are so keen to tell us how wrong we are - it's because you can't get in.

I thought it was because you're all medical experts in epidemiology, or free-spirited sovereign-citizen libertarians.

But stemming the free flow of pommies into Australia was at the lower end of the restrictions applying here over the last couple of years, most of which had a real and tangible effect on our daily lives.

Seems little point discussing anything sensible with someone who constantly resorts to such childish insults.
 

OzLoon

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OzLoon - do you think England is acting dangerously in lifting restrictions?

If so, what do you think will happen as they are lifted?

Cards on the table - I am delighted with the freedoms we have but I am interested in your view?

I do not know what the English Health Authorities are telling your pollies, so I have no view about whether your pollies are acting dangerously or not - and because I'm not on your electoral roll, I don't care a jot either. I'm a bit suss though about your man looking to do anything he can to obscure the latest mess he's got himself into, and I figure he couldn't hope to ask the English public to do anything he's shown he has no intention of doing himself. He has a serious credibility problem, so I don't think he'd be the right person to convince me to do, or not do, anything.

I'm very happy about your freedoms, as I am, mine. I'm sitting in the top floor of a friend's Melbourne flat after a two-hour drive east where I'm just a short walk away from the stadium hosting tonight's World Cup qualifier which I'll attend as part of what'll likely be a full house. Melbourne's Vietnamese community will also be there loud and proud.

And over the road, the Oz Open tennis continues, and across the road from that a bang-and-wallop cricket game will take place this evening, also with a solid attendance.

The Victorian health authorities are supportive of all of this.

The states and territories with a high Indigenous population, which is understood to be at much higher risk, are much more restrictive in order to give them time to get a higher proportion vaxxed. Today I read in one of the online papers I read every day that the Central Land Council has asked the NT Chief Minister to lock down that part of the NT to protect their communities. WA is still locked down to interstate travellers, and that's one-third of the country. WA has a large First Nations population in remote areas. They need protection. I'm fully on board with that.
 

Jamiescott1

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Sorry I can't quote at moment (maybe someone else can for me) but there's am article on today's daily mail online from a person living in New Zealand saying how much damage the restrictions have done to their country
 

OzLoon

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Sorry I can't quote at moment (maybe someone else can for me) but there's am article on today's daily mail online from a person living in New Zealand saying how much damage the restrictions have done to their country

I'm pretty sure the Daily Mail can find busloads of people here in Oz who'd say likewise - some even decided to punch police horses to vent their unhappiness.
 

seagull

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@Jamiescott1

(article written by David Seymour, leader of NZ opposition party ACT)

"But here in our far-flung corner of the Southern Hemisphere, isolated behind our still-sealed border, we endlessly push around a hamster wheel of ever more wearying rules and restrictions.

Among them is a staggering isolation period of up to 24 days for those in households where someone has tested positive, a mandatory cap of 100 vaccinated people at public events — a devastating imposition on the entertainment industry in this, our peak summer season — and compulsory mask wearing almost everywhere, including for school pupils aged eight and up.

Places usually bustling with peak-season tourists at this time of year are little more than ghost towns, their glaciers, lakes and vineyards unloved and unvisited.

Waitangi Day, the national day of New Zealand, is approaching on February 6. But the commemorations at Waitangi Treaty Grounds, which used to attract 30,000 people annually, have been cancelled.

Sporting events have all but disappeared. While other nations watched agog as the world's top tennis player, Novak Djokovic, was deported and barred from participating in the Australian Open over his vaccination status, the most striking aspect of the story from our perspective is that the tournament went ahead at all: our equivalent, the Auckland Open, hasn't taken place for two years.

And just imagine the heartbreak for those citizens here who don't dare leave our country for fear of being unable to return.

Or for the near one million-strong population of New Zealanders living abroad who have little prospect of coming home because, to do so, they have to enter a lottery for one of a small number of hotel quarantine rooms here, with only a 12 per cent chance of being successful.

It is desperately sad to watch the confident, free society I have always loved give way to this closeted, insular one, bound by what feels like ever-more authoritarian measures with no end in sight.

To add insult to injury, we are effectively banned from testing ourselves for Covid, as happens all over the world.

Only a 'trained tester' such as a medic or a pharmacist is allowed to do the job, and anyone who imports rapid antigen tests for home use could face up to six months in jail.

This is hardly in the spirit of the liberal, laid-back New Zealand the world once knew. It is little wonder that, weary of what feels like creeping authoritarianism and a never-ending marathon of restrictions, the population is kicking back.

Make no mistake — I threw my support behind our Prime Minister's decision to close our borders back in March 2020. Along with the rest of the world, our country faced enormous uncertainty as the spectre of Covid started to unfurl across the globe.

At first, everyone believed that using our strategic advantage to isolate ourselves was a price worth paying. Sealing our border to buy time, stop a rapid spread of the disease and save lives was entirely sensible. But it must be emphasised that no one back then — Jacinda Ardern included — thought that elimination of the virus was possible.

By stealth, however, Zero Covid became the policy, and it is one that has kept our population in a state of fear about getting our way of life back.

After all, fear is a powerful political tool, and it is a tool that our government has continually deployed. It is frightening to be told by your prime minister that tens of thousands will die and, understandably, parts of the population are now permeated by the most extraordinary concern that if the borders open that's exactly what will happen.

But it seems many are losing their patience. Ardern's Labour Party, which in 2017 won nearly 50 per cent of the vote, has dropped to around 35 points in the polls. We've seen, for the first time in 15 years, the majority of Kiwis say our country is going in the wrong direction."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ring-Kiwi-DAVID-SEYMOUR.html#article-10445975
 
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Bantamzen

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OK - now I get it! The concern expressed about our restrictions wasn't because you were worried about us, but because you were worried about *you*. Now I understand why people in a tiny overcrowded de-natured cold and damp place 20,000kms away are so keen to tell us how wrong we are - it's because you can't get in.

I thought it was because you're all medical experts in epidemiology, or free-spirited sovereign-citizen libertarians.

Movement across the international borders is a federal government responsibility. And so is quarantine, but because of how poorly they managed that, essentially it was the states and territories which had to create the quarantine protocols. As I've written a number of times, I don't think the Feds have done well except for finally making some transfer payments to businesses in order to keep employees paid.

Oz is not the only country with closed borders, and the sanctity of sovereignty over borders is a special issue for this PM and government in particular which is why it's been handled by the Feds in this unsubtle way. I do hope none of the criticism of access into Australia is not being made by Brexit supporters, who should be completely on-board with a country deciding who can enter. It is very distressing that friends and rellos of Oz citizens can't meet up, and that clearly is something the Feds are feeling pressure about from the huge proportion of us who are born elsewhere or whose parents of grandparents were.

But stemming the free flow of pommies into Australia was at the lower end of the restrictions applying here over the last couple of years, most of which had a real and tangible effect on our daily lives. We got on with it because we bought into the logic of it, and we recognised that abiding by them was an important part of looking after each other and not being a dick-head. We had plenty of examples elsewhere across the Anglosphere and direct knowledge in migrant communities of happenings in their homelands to know what is the result of an absence of protocols and community support for them.

I hope our borders can open soon and the backpackers and students can return and enjoy our fabulous country again. Even pommies :)



Oz has a well-patronised federally-funded annual flu-shot campaign with special emphasis on the vulnerable precisely because we don't believe in sacrificing grannies. But if you are upset at the reference, perhaps you shouldn't advocate a let 'er rip strategy on the grounds that only the elderly would be at risk - that's not my preferred policy.
Gosh, you really have a beef with us pommies don't you?

Anyway, typical stereotypes aside a couple of points. Firstly on restrictions, it may have escaped your attention or perhaps your wardens don't allow the information to flow, but across the globe restrictions have been shown not to work, but instead simply delay the virus. Every country that has imposed them has sooner or later had at least one, or often several waves of the virus. As I mentioned to you earlier in the thread this is because this is what viruses do, they spread. And short of locking yourselves in your homes indefinitely, the 'rona is coming to a place like yours. Oh I know what you are going to say, long term restrictions will save our health service. Well despite England being much lighter touch, the NHS hasn't melted down.

As for this whole "look at how virtuous we Aussies are" stuff I say just this. Rubbish. As we found out here in Pommieland, those people most desperate to signal their virtues were quickly exposed as the most selfish people going. They were happy to see restrictions imposed, and often demanded more because said restrictions didn't adversely affect them. Often the loudest pro-restriction folk were middle class office workers, who were perfectly able to work from home, order their food online and were happy not to socialise. They didn't lose 20%+ of their income, they didn't lose their businesses, they didn't lose their jobs. Covid restrictions didn't hurt them, but it gave them a reason to vomit vitriol and blame on others who were affected or had to carry on with their lives to survive. So long as the government left them alone, they were happy for others to pay the price of restrictions. As I said, selfish virtue signallers. I suspect the same is true with folk like yourself down under.

Edit: You might also want to take in the article quoted by @seagull above.
 
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duncanp

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@Jamiescott1

(article written by David Seymour, leader of NZ opposition party ACT)

"But here in our far-flung corner of the Southern Hemisphere, isolated behind our still-sealed border, we endlessly push around a hamster wheel of ever more wearying rules and restrictions.

Among them is a staggering isolation period of up to 24 days for those in households where someone has tested positive, a mandatory cap of 100 vaccinated people at public events — a devastating imposition on the entertainment industry in this, our peak summer season — and compulsory mask wearing almost everywhere, including for school pupils aged eight and up.

Places usually bustling with peak-season tourists at this time of year are little more than ghost towns, their glaciers, lakes and vineyards unloved and unvisited.

Waitangi Day, the national day of New Zealand, is approaching on February 6. But the commemorations at Waitangi Treaty Grounds, which used to attract 30,000 people annually, have been cancelled.

Sporting events have all but disappeared. While other nations watched agog as the world's top tennis player, Novak Djokovic, was deported and barred from participating in the Australian Open over his vaccination status, the most striking aspect of the story from our perspective is that the tournament went ahead at all: our equivalent, the Auckland Open, hasn't taken place for two years.

And just imagine the heartbreak for those citizens here who don't dare leave our country for fear of being unable to return.

Or for the near one million-strong population of New Zealanders living abroad who have little prospect of coming home because, to do so, they have to enter a lottery for one of a small number of hotel quarantine rooms here, with only a 12 per cent chance of being successful.

It is desperately sad to watch the confident, free society I have always loved give way to this closeted, insular one, bound by what feels like ever-more authoritarian measures with no end in sight.

To add insult to injury, we are effectively banned from testing ourselves for Covid, as happens all over the world.

Only a 'trained tester' such as a medic or a pharmacist is allowed to do the job, and anyone who imports rapid antigen tests for home use could face up to six months in jail.

This is hardly in the spirit of the liberal, laid-back New Zealand the world once knew. It is little wonder that, weary of what feels like creeping authoritarianism and a never-ending marathon of restrictions, the population is kicking back.

Make no mistake — I threw my support behind our Prime Minister's decision to close our borders back in March 2020. Along with the rest of the world, our country faced enormous uncertainty as the spectre of Covid started to unfurl across the globe.

At first, everyone believed that using our strategic advantage to isolate ourselves was a price worth paying. Sealing our border to buy time, stop a rapid spread of the disease and save lives was entirely sensible. But it must be emphasised that no one back then — Jacinda Ardern included — thought that elimination of the virus was possible.

By stealth, however, Zero Covid became the policy, and it is one that has kept our population in a state of fear about getting our way of life back.

After all, fear is a powerful political tool, and it is a tool that our government has continually deployed. It is frightening to be told by your prime minister that tens of thousands will die and, understandably, parts of the population are now permeated by the most extraordinary concern that if the borders open that's exactly what will happen.

But it seems many are losing their patience. Ardern's Labour Party, which in 2017 won nearly 50 per cent of the vote, has dropped to around 35 points in the polls. We've seen, for the first time in 15 years, the majority of Kiwis say our country is going in the wrong direction."


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ring-Kiwi-DAVID-SEYMOUR.html#article-10445975

So someone who imports rapid antigen tests for home use could spend up to six months in jail?

Really??

The lunatics really have taken over the asylum if that is true.

The article by the leader of the opposition in New Zealand shows the effect that the restrictions are having on businesses there, and it reminds me of the statement "...the trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money..."
 

Dent

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The states and territories with a high Indigenous population, which is understood to be at much higher risk, are much more restrictive in order to give them time to get a higher proportion vaxxed. Today I read in one of the online papers I read every day that the Central Land Council has asked the NT Chief Minister to lock down that part of the NT to protect their communities. WA is still locked down to interstate travellers, and that's one-third of the country. WA has a large First Nations population in remote areas. They need protection. I'm fully on board with that.
You have to ask why a higher proportion of them are not already vaccinated, when they have already had plenty of time. If it's because of supply issues that are about to be resolved then it may be justifiable, but if its because they are not interested in being vaccinated then putting life on hold waiting for something which is not going to happen is fruitless.
 

yorksrob

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I do not know what the English Health Authorities are telling your pollies, so I have no view about whether your pollies are acting dangerously or not - and because I'm not on your electoral roll, I don't care a jot either. I'm a bit suss though about your man looking to do anything he can to obscure the latest mess he's got himself into, and I figure he couldn't hope to ask the English public to do anything he's shown he has no intention of doing himself. He has a serious credibility problem, so I don't think he'd be the right person to convince me to do, or not do, anything.

I'm very happy about your freedoms, as I am, mine. I'm sitting in the top floor of a friend's Melbourne flat after a two-hour drive east where I'm just a short walk away from the stadium hosting tonight's World Cup qualifier which I'll attend as part of what'll likely be a full house. Melbourne's Vietnamese community will also be there loud and proud.

And over the road, the Oz Open tennis continues, and across the road from that a bang-and-wallop cricket game will take place this evening, also with a solid attendance.

The Victorian health authorities are supportive of all of this.

The states and territories with a high Indigenous population, which is understood to be at much higher risk, are much more restrictive in order to give them time to get a higher proportion vaxxed. Today I read in one of the online papers I read every day that the Central Land Council has asked the NT Chief Minister to lock down that part of the NT to protect their communities. WA is still locked down to interstate travellers, and that's one-third of the country. WA has a large First Nations population in remote areas. They need protection. I'm fully on board with that.

Out of interest, what will be your view of retaining restrictions when everyone who wants to, has had the opportunity of being vaccinated (which is where we are now in the UK) ?

As it happens, I have a great deal of sympathy and empathy for Australians who've had to endure lockdowns, in some cases as long as ours. I can imagine being cooped up must be even worse in a hot climate.
 
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yorkie

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I do not know what the English Health Authorities are telling your pollies, so I have no view about whether your pollies are acting dangerously or not ...... (snip)
I didn't understand what this meant so had to look it up; could you please avoid Australian slang terms that we may not be familiar with please.

As for your long post, I see nothing new in there, no evidence of any evidence-based discussion, and I do not see any of my points being addressed. If you can address the points stated above and answer the questions myself and others have asked, it could be an interesting debate.

Out of interest, what will be your view of retaining restrictions when everyone who wants to, has had the opportunity of being vaccinated (which is where we are now in the UK) ?
Indeed; surely almost all Australians who want to be vaccinated are now vaccinated? How far is there to go, and what is the proposed strategy for the exposure of all Australians to Omicron?

There is no avoiding the inevitability that everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2

Countries such as the Netherlands have shown that even a lockdown cannot do anything to stop exponential growth of Omicron. And the latest iteration is even more fit ('transmissable') than before, with the process likely to continue, meaning delaying exposure longer until the virus is even quicker at spreading risks an even faster rate of growth, thus defeating the purpose of restrictions.
 

kristiang85

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So someone who imports rapid antigen tests for home use could spend up to six months in jail?

Really??

The lunatics really have taken over the asylum if that is true.

The article by the leader of the opposition in New Zealand shows the effect that the restrictions are having on businesses there, and it reminds me of the statement "...the trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money..."

I don't even understand the rationale behind it? It's one thing to say that results of non-authorised tests will not be recognised (obviously here in the UK lft tests can be faked), but jail time for something that might bring a family a quick peace of mind seems ridiculous.
 

52290

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OK - now I get it! The concern expressed about our restrictions wasn't because you were worried about us, but because you were worried about *you*. Now I understand why people in a tiny overcrowded de-natured cold and damp place 20,000kms away are so keen to tell us how wrong we are - it's because you can't get in.
I think you are being a little harsh on Tasmania, it's certainly not overcrowded.
 

seagull

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Found this interesting snippet from a NZ media outlet:

"[Rapid antigen tests] are not widely available in points of distribution across New Zealand and Australia, as they are in many other countries."

In fact, the unavailability and the unaffordability of rapid antigen tests has been a political scandal in Australia for the best part of a month. As this column has previously reported, there have been widespread reports of price gouging, stock-piling, and accounts of people moving between supermarkets and piling them into rucksacks. In Melbourne, people have reportedly been forced into searching for them for hours at a time, in the face of empty shelves in chemists and supermarkets all over town."

Also from a NZ government web page:

"There are currently nine rapid antigen tests authorised under the COVID-19 Public Health Response 2020 (Point of Care) Order (the Order).

The Order which took effect on 22 April 2021 prohibits the importation and use of rapid antigen tests in New Zealand without the authorisation of the Director General of Health.

Importation (the goods crossing the 12 nautical mile point, whether or not for use in New Zealand) of point of care tests and devices, including rapid antigen tests, must not commence prior to obtaining authorisation through the Order. Any attempt to do so is considered unlawful and will result in the goods being confiscated or seized."

It seems that the use of RAT or LFT (Rapid Antigen Testing or Lateral Flow Testing) has only been very recently allowed in any case, and with strict conditions attached.
 
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Berliner

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After hearing first hand reports from cabin crew friends who had the audacity to do their jobs and fly Australians back to their home land during the height of Covid restrictions, I would be quite happy never setting foot on that island ever again.

I've had good friends tell me about them being Literally locked up in a hotel room, including over Christmas, with no opening windows for days on end and no possibility at all to get outside and exercise or even use the hotel gym facilities. Not even being allowed to mix with the crew they flew in with, or even share an elevator with them, even after they all tested negative. Having security shout at them every time they opened the room door just to let a bit of a breeze through the room. I heard stories about being forced to wait hours for luke warm or even cold food because the hotel didn't have enough in the kitchen to provide for a dozen or so people who had been booked in advance. Dealing time and time again with receptionists who wouldn't allow them out to collect take aways or bring them up to the rooms in any timely fashion, so again, cold food or no possibility to deal with incorrect orders.

This wasn't just a one off in one hotel in one city, but I heard several similar things from various crew I know from all over the country. What a way to treat people who were bringing your citizens home. They actually got better treatment in the developing world than they did Australia.
 

43066

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@OzLoon It’s difficult to know where to start with your flurry of posts on this thread.

OK - now I get it! The concern expressed about our restrictions wasn't because you were worried about us, but because you were worried about *you*. Now I understand why people in a tiny overcrowded de-natured cold and damp place 20,000kms away are so keen to tell us how wrong we are - it's because you can't get in.

With all due respect, not everybody in the U.K. wants to come to Australia. It’s 12,000 miles away. If Brits want to visit a giant desert, with some beaches and no buildings over 100 years old, Dubai is a lot closer ;).

But stemming the free flow of pommies into Australia was at the lower end of the restrictions applying here over the last couple of years, most of which had a real and tangible effect on our daily lives.

But, as well as keeping the pommies out, didn’t your government also prevent thousands of its own citizens from re entering when they limited flight numbers? That’s more the kind of action I’d expect from a banana republic or military junta, not a supposedly modern civilised country.

Let me guess; it didn’t affect you personally so you simply aren’t fussed?

I do hope none of the criticism of access into Australia is not being made by Brexit supporters, who should be completely on-board with a country deciding who can enter.

Even Brexit supporters don’t want our own citizens locked out of their country by our government. :rolleyes:

We had plenty of examples elsewhere across the Anglosphere and direct knowledge in migrant communities of happenings in their homelands to know what is the result of an absence of protocols and community support for them.

For all your efforts to describe Australia as some kind of morally superior, virtuous paradise, it’s interesting you don’t mention the aborigines, who aren’t doing too well by all accounts.

As I understand it, that’s just business as usual in Australia.

Oz has a well-patronised federally-funded annual flu-shot campaign with special emphasis on the vulnerable precisely because we don't believe in sacrificing grannies.

Shock horror the UK has a flu vaccine programme like that too. I have no idea why you insist on using such silly phraseology as “sacrificing grannies”. That’s a ludicrous way of describing a mild respiratory disease circulating, which can be more serious for those gravely I’ll or at the end of their natural lives. Or do you think human beings can live forever if we all wear masks and have vaccines every three months!?

I’ve got news for you: many thousands of elderly people have died of flu over the last decade in Australia (as with most countries). There were no restrictions in place to prevent this aside from the vaccine. So, by your logic, why isn’t that “sacrificing grannies”? If you were okay with this pre 2019 that is inconsistent with your position in relation to Covid, which I’m afraid is a nonsensical stance.


Do you think Australia is going to eliminate Covid? If not, at what point will it be acceptable to reopen borders? You’ve been asked for your views on these matters several times, but don’t seem to be really engaging with any of the points put to you, so I’m unsure how seriously to take your posts.

But if you are upset at the reference, perhaps you shouldn't advocate a let 'er rip strategy on the grounds that only the elderly would be at risk - that's not my preferred policy.

You keep presenting the same false binary. There isn’t a straight choice between no restrictions at all and authoritarian madness of the type seen in Australia and NZ. I don’t think anyone on here has advocated for “letting ‘er rip”. Many of us would favour a nuanced approach which is proportional to the risk faced, recognises the enormous harm done by restrictions, and doesn’t simply prioritise minimising deaths from one cause to the exclusion of every other aspect of life.

More to the point, how can it possibly make sense to talk of “letting ‘er rip” in a context highly vaccinated population where what was already a fairly mild illness has been reduced to the level where it poses a similar risk to flu?
 
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MikeWM

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But, as well as keeping the pommies out, didn’t your government also prevent thousands of its own citizens from re entering when they limited flight numbers? That’s more the kind of action I’d expect from a banana republic or military junta, not a supposedly modern civilised country.

New Zealand still are doing so - you have to enter a monthly 'lottery' if you want to return to your own country of citizenship! Which violates the most basic principles of nation-state citizen-based international law.

For all your efforts to describe Australia as some kind of morally superior, virtuous paradise, it’s interesting you don’t mention the aborigines, who aren’t doing too well by all accounts.

As I understand it, that’s just business as usual in Australia.

All countries have their issues they'd rather not shout too loudly about, but anyone who has seen some of John Pilger's work as to how the native Australians are treated by their government, should be rather concerned.
 

OzLoon

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You have to ask why a higher proportion of them are not already vaccinated, when they have already had plenty of time. If it's because of supply issues that are about to be resolved then it may be justifiable, but if its because they are not interested in being vaccinated then putting life on hold waiting for something which is not going to happen is fruitless.


It's a mix of the former, allied to the fact that in some cases the communities are spread across vast distances in remote country and where there are few established health services - the flying doctor is the source of many peoples' health service. And being able to explain the issue and remedy to remote, sometimes tribal people, in a mutual language is a job in itself. It's a significant issue and one that has to be got right - so far, the consensus is that it's best to minimise contact with non-essential outsiders.

New Zealand still are doing so - you have to enter a monthly 'lottery' if you want to return to your own country of citizenship! Which violates the most basic principles of nation-state citizen-based international law.



All countries have their issues they'd rather not shout too loudly about, but anyone who has seen some of John Pilger's work as to how the native Australians are treated by their government, should be rather concerned.

I've mentioned how lockdowns and travel restrictions are directly related to Indigenous health protection quite a number of times, and again below. It's true Australia has generally not handled First Nations peoples well - sadly a continuum of the colonial masters' policies after settlement here, in the same way as they did everywhere else.

I'm not Indigenous, so I can't write on their behalf, but it is clear every step of progress to date has been too slow, and generally opposed or resisted by the parties which comprise the current Federal government coalition.

The international travel ban is a Federal issue, and I've previously written about how it - like your Brexiteer mob - made "border control" and fear of foreigners (or contact with them) such a fundamental policy it'll be hard for them to escape from.
 
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Dent

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It's a mix of the former, allied to the fact that in some cases the communities are spread across vast distances in remote country and where there are few established health services - the flying doctor is the source of many peoples' health service. And being able to explain the issue and remedy to remote, sometimes tribal people, in a mutual language is a job in itself. It's a significant issue and one that has to be got right - so far, the consensus is that it's best to minimise contact with non-essential outsiders.

Are all these issues about to be resolved? Otherwise it's putting life on hold waiting for something that's not going to happen, which is not sustainable.
 

OzLoon

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After hearing first hand reports from cabin crew friends who had the audacity to do their jobs and fly Australians back to their home land during the height of Covid restrictions, I would be quite happy never setting foot on that island ever again.

I've had good friends tell me about them being Literally locked up in a hotel room, including over Christmas, with no opening windows for days on end and no possibility at all to get outside and exercise or even use the hotel gym facilities. Not even being allowed to mix with the crew they flew in with, or even share an elevator with them, even after they all tested negative. Having security shout at them every time they opened the room door just to let a bit of a breeze through the room. I heard stories about being forced to wait hours for luke warm or even cold food because the hotel didn't have enough in the kitchen to provide for a dozen or so people who had been booked in advance. Dealing time and time again with receptionists who wouldn't allow them out to collect take aways or bring them up to the rooms in any timely fashion, so again, cold food or no possibility to deal with incorrect orders.

This wasn't just a one off in one hotel in one city, but I heard several similar things from various crew I know from all over the country. What a way to treat people who were bringing your citizens home. They actually got better treatment in the developing world than they did Australia.

It's the Feds which have border control and quarantine as a responsibility, but they haven't had physical quarantine facilities for humans since the 1920s (they run plenty for animals) - they reached agreement with the states to quarantine arrivals in major CBD multi-star hotels. The hotels weren't given Federal health or security personnel to assist, and it would have been a tough slog for many. There are now some state/territory built and managed quarantine stations which have better access to outside and air, even so, no-one really wants to be in quarantine, so if you're narky about quarantine, it wouldn't matter where it was or how hot and delicious the food was.

However, state-run facilities has attracted another train-fan's ire here for non-food quality reasons but rather because the relevant state government placed the new function under the Fire and Emergency Services Authority, and apparently, the FESAQ badge and uniform gives him the willies because he couldn't tell the difference between the Iron Cross of Germany and the Maltese Cross of the relevant State and further confuses a red embellishment on the uniform - flames perhaps? - for a silver double-S.

All OS arrivals, citizens or not, go into quarantine for a period I understand, with penalties including visa cancellation and fines for those who breach the conditions. As our two largest virus escapes early on the the process came from two serious quarantine failures in two different states, the Oz public is generally supportive if it I believe.

I entered the discussion because I thought the thread was about why was Oz (and NZ) doing such silly unscientific things to try to respond to an international health emergency. I've been trying to explain what I understood was happening, and why it is not the subject of the citizenry rushing the parliaments with pichforks.

Broadly speaking, it's because we've been brought into the reasons, the responses, and how we can help each other through the event. I think we've maintained our cool because we start off generally cool and relaxed about things, and we've not been presented with a credible alternative approach. State and Territory governments have done well mostly, and they've done the heavy lifting rather than the Feds. The Feds have been marked down, and I think this is just the latest event they've managed poorly (after last season's fires, and a heap of financial rorting issues). I think they'll be tossed in May.

I'm certain that comparative assessment of different countries' approaches will be fine fodder for scads of doctoral theses over the next decade, and I'd be keen to read some. I'm not schooled in health matters, I'm not in government, I have an ordinary citizen's knowledge and appreciation of the issues.

i attended a venue tonight where at least 30 overseas visitors, together with a bunch of OS-based returning Aussies happily shrugged off any border control and quarantine issues and proceeded to run about all over the place for a couple of hours or so.

Are all these issues about to be resolved? Otherwise it's putting life on hold waiting for something that's not going to happen, which is not sustainable.

The relevant state and territory governments are putting serious resources in to make it happen. It will be a huge job. WA, Queensland, and the NT (which all have large First Nations' populations) are vast places.
 

DerekC

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As for this whole "look at how virtuous we Aussies are" stuff I say just this. Rubbish. As we found out here in Pommieland, those people most desperate to signal their virtues were quickly exposed as the most selfish people going. They were happy to see restrictions imposed, and often demanded more because said restrictions didn't adversely affect them. Often the loudest pro-restriction folk were middle class office workers, who were perfectly able to work from home, order their food online and were happy not to socialise. They didn't lose 20%+ of their income, they didn't lose their businesses, they didn't lose their jobs. Covid restrictions didn't hurt them, but it gave them a reason to vomit vitriol and blame on others who were affected or had to carry on with their lives to survive. So long as the government left them alone, they were happy for others to pay the price of restrictions. As I said, selfish virtue signallers. I suspect the same is true with folk like yourself down under.
@OzLoon - please don't assume that this kind of guff is typical of what people in the UK think. Unfortunately the Covid threads on this Forum have been taken over by a group of self-appointed experts from Google Uni who turn every thread into an echo chamber for their extreme opinions. And like most such people, the labour under the delusion that they represent majority opinion. I already posted a couple of pages back the relative death rates and vaccination statistics from UK, Australia and New Zealand. The fact that the death rate in UK is about 20 times that in Oz and 200 times that in NZ rather tells its own story. Now, incompetent though the UK government was in handling the first year of the pandemic, you couldn't realistically have applied the total isolation approach here, but nevertheless the Oz and NZ approach deserves respect. And so does the fact that most people in the UK have gone along with the rules and guidance because they respect each other, unlike the egocentrics who spout rubbish like the post above.
 
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