What is the Covid-19 Exit Strategy of 'Zero Covid' countries such as Hong Kong?

[takno]

But your man has decided he and his crowd should not be bound by the various social restrictions that his own government applied, whereas Ms Ardern is using herself to set a high standard across EnZed. That knocks your man right into the relegation zone of the credibility table.

I'm neither a citizen or resident of Aotearoa, but like most Aussies, I feel great goodwill, admiration, and some envy of my Kiwi cousins, so I'm finding it's a bit odd that the criticism of her leadership here is seemingly coming from pommies 20,000kms away, and not a peep out of EnZedders on this forum. I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.

Seems like a rather odd racist rant

 

[Freightmaster]

...right now I'd strongly prefer a hypocritical flailing powerless buffoon, to a powerful leader with an obsessive unattainable dream and the power to do awful things to her people while she chases it.

I thought this thread was about the policies of Australia/New Zealand, not England/Scotland?






MARK

 

[seagull]

So the fact that Omicron is going to spread through both Aus and NZ over the next couple of months simply means that they are where we were in December, but with respectively twenty and two hundred times fewer deaths behind them in getting there.

There's no point accusing others of being in an echo chamber when you are equally unwilling to assess things on any level other than what you want to hear, by dismissing other's postings.

For example, no country on earth can reasonably sustain the level of lockdown and restriction that NZ has, without the potential for severe implications for both the mental and physical health of its citizens. Just because the numbers who die as a direct or indirect result of that may not be quantified accurately doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In addition, vaccines aren't all, as indeed we are rapidly discovering and backed by scientific evidence, that natural immunity caused by exposure to a virus is significantly better than that provided by vaccine alone.
So the NZ approach, while looking better on paper for now, may have longer-term consequences which ultimately mean no benefit at all compared to the likes of Europe or the UK.
At least keep an open mind, if nothing else.

https://ijr.com/cdc-study-natural-immunity-significantly-protection-covid/

"A study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released on Wednesday shows that those who have recovered from COVID-19 have more protection against infection than those who have only been vaccinated."

 

[Bantamzen]

But your man has decided he and his crowd should not be bound by the various social restrictions that his own government applied, whereas Ms Ardern is using herself to set a high standard across EnZed. That knocks your man right into the relegation zone of the credibility table.

I'm neither a citizen or resident of Aotearoa, but like most Aussies, I feel great goodwill, admiration, and some envy of my Kiwi cousins, so I'm finding it's a bit odd that the criticism of her leadership here is seemingly coming from pommies 20,000kms away, and not a peep out of EnZedders on this forum. I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.

She has spent 24 months pursuing a zero-cvoid solution, and fallen flat on her face. Now like the rest of the world's politicians she is trying anything and everything just in case something sticks. Sadly however nothing will. Why?

Because viruses spread wherever human interactions take place. Always have, always will. She can wrap NZ up in a big ball of cottom wool, but sooner or later she is going to be faced with a stark choice. Lock Kiwis up on their island for all time, or face the reality that covid spreading is inevitable. Vaccines will help people not fall ill, but they won't stop it. The same goes for Aussie-land too....

(Oh BTW, the Scots & the Welsh, and for that matter the Irish, French, Italian, Spanish, Greek et al are all finding this out too. Perhaps you would better spend that vitriol on your politicians who still seem to be labouring under the illusion that they can "defeat the virus).

 

[yorksrob]

But your man has decided he and his crowd should not be bound by the various social restrictions that his own government applied, whereas Ms Ardern is using herself to set a high standard across EnZed. That knocks your man right into the relegation zone of the credibility table.

I'm neither a citizen or resident of Aotearoa, but like most Aussies, I feel great goodwill, admiration, and some envy of my Kiwi cousins, so I'm finding it's a bit odd that the criticism of her leadership here is seemingly coming from pommies 20,000kms away, and not a peep out of EnZedders on this forum. I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.

I'm not sure we have that many antipodean members of the forum to start of with as I'm sure UK railways would be a fairly niche interest for most Kiwi's.

I'm not one to unduly criticise Ms Arderne. There's no doubt that NZ's isolation policy worked at a time when such a thing was practical. The issue is why continue with onerous policies with a high rate of vaccination.

In terms of grit and determination to "win out", it should be obvious to everyone that we can no more win out against this virus than we can the common cold !

It's another lockdownivist-maskivist-conspiracy-theory echo chamber. Please be assured the people posting these theories don't represent the opinion of most people I talk to in UK. And you can only have to look at the following figures from statista.com, updated to 19/01/2022:

Country-------------Covid deaths per million of population
UK---------------------------2,274
Australia---------------------112
NZ-----------------------------10

And to blow a hole in another of the "facts" presented so confidently on this thread, here's the vaccination rates for the three countries in question, taken from "ourworldindata" and updated to 24/01/22

View attachment 109258

So the fact that Omicron is going to spread through both Aus and NZ over the next couple of months simply means that they are where we were in December, but with respectively twenty and two hundred times fewer deaths behind them in getting there.

I'm not sure that repeating high death figures, most of which are heavily skewed from circumstances two years ago, has a lot of bearing on policy now. Ultimately turfing out loads of ill pensioners into care homes clearly wasn't a good policy in mid 2020, however it doesn't really inform us as to whether restrictions and lengthy isolation policies are of much value in highly vaccinated populations in 2022.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's another lockdownivist-maskivist-conspiracy-theory echo chamber. Please be assured the people posting these theories don't represent the opinion of most people I talk to in UK. And you can only have to look at the following figures from statista.com, updated to 19/01/2022:

Country-------------Covid deaths per million of population
UK---------------------------2,274
Australia---------------------112
NZ-----------------------------10

And to blow a hole in another of the "facts" presented so confidently on this thread, here's the vaccination rates for the three countries in question, taken from "ourworldindata" and updated to 24/01/22

View attachment 109258

So the fact that Omicron is going to spread through both Aus and NZ over the next couple of months simply means that they are where we were in December, but with respectively twenty and two hundred times fewer deaths behind them in getting there.

The problem with using cherry picked statistics like this is that you ignore the slightly inconvenient fact that different countries have very different reporting methods. For example in England deaths are recorded as any death within 28 days of a positive test, whereas in Australia deaths are recorded as confirmed or suspected cases with no period for recovery. Totally different metrics. Ironically the Aussie method is probably more robust than ours, as it requires at least a medical assessment that covid was the likely cause of death and not that they just had covid in the last month.

 

[OzLoon]

She has spent 24 months pursuing a zero-cvoid solution, and fallen flat on her face. Now like the rest of the world's politicians she is trying anything and everything just in case something sticks. Sadly however nothing will. Why?

Because viruses spread wherever human interactions take place. Always have, always will. She can wrap NZ up in a big ball of cottom wool, but sooner or later she is going to be faced with a stark choice. Lock Kiwis up on their island for all time, or face the reality that covid spreading is inevitable. Vaccines will help people not fall ill, but they won't stop it. The same goes for Aussie-land too....

(Oh BTW, the Scots & the Welsh, and for that matter the Irish, French, Italian, Spanish, Greek et al are all finding this out too. Perhaps you would better spend that vitriol on your politicians who still seem to be labouring under the illusion that they can "defeat the virus).

In Oz, the main actions have been managed by the States and Territories, because it's they who manage hospitals, rather than the Feds. The Feds' responsibility has been to obtain and distribute vaccines because they manage imports. The Feds have also picked up most of the social transfer-payment obligations to those affected - businesses and employees - because they manage unemployment and social security payments. They also run border control, so they locked out visitors, and locked in residents for quite a time, to reduce risk of spread.

State and Territory leaders together with the PM, formed a 'National Cabinet' to try to reach policies to apply to the whole country regarding covid strategy - stem? halt? I'm not a fan of the current national government which has made some poor moves over the period, but I am of my current State government, which has put heaps of effort into getting people vaxxed.

I thought very early on in the pandemic that the global nature of the illness will allow us to make real-time comparisons of different nations' care of their citizens and residents, their health and social systems, their social cohesion and community solidity, and so on. It has been a fascinating study. I think we are doing a bit better than most here in Oz, and I'm proud of that.

I think our national strategy has been to try to minimise spread and infections needing hospital care until such time as we have a very large proportion of residents vaxxed. The states with high Indigenous populations had to take great care to try to keep out infections as it was thought our First Nations people were at great risk - to some extent this is why WA, the NT, and Queensland had tough restrictions on entry from other places in Oz. The Vic State government recognised that there were recent immigrant communities who were likely also at greater risk, and that was partly behind Melbourne's tougher internal movement restrictions than elsewhere in Victoria.

I think we in Oz have a strong sense of mutual obligation, especially in regional areas, because community action and response has been the foundation of much of how the communities work, especially in response to fire and flood disasters. There are some dingbats about, mostly in the capital cities, who've not taken well to this collective responsibility imperative, and have arced up about it, looking like incoherent gooses. I'm triple-vaxxed as of yesterday, and all my circle of friends and rellos are too. I don't know anyone who is blasé about covid, or who reckons the "let 'er rip" idea is the right way to go.

I don't know how Kiwis think of their approach, but they are even more staunch than bush Aussies, so I reckon they'll take things into their stride without whingeing.

 

[Bantamzen]

In Oz, the main actions have been managed by the States and Territories, because it's they who manage hospitals, rather than the Feds. The Feds' responsibility has been to obtain and distribute vaccines because they manage imports. The Feds have also picked up most of the social transfer-payment obligations to those affected - businesses and employees - because they manage unemployment and social security payments. They also run border control, so they locked out visitors, and locked in residents for quite a time, to reduce risk of spread.

State and Territory leaders together with the PM, formed a 'National Cabinet' to try to reach policies to apply to the whole country regarding covid strategy - stem? halt? I'm not a fan of the current national government which has made some poor moves over the period, but I am of my current State government, which has put heaps of effort into getting people vaxxed.

I thought very early on in the pandemic that the global nature of the illness will allow us to make real-time comparisons of different nations' care of their citizens and residents, their health and social systems, their social cohesion and community solidity, and so on. It has been a fascinating study. I think we are doing a bit better than most here in Oz, and I'm proud of that.

I think our national strategy has been to try to minimise spread and infections needing hospital care until such time as we have a very large proportion of residents vaxxed. The states with high Indigenous populations had to take great care to try to keep out infections as it was thought our First Nations people were at great risk - to some extent this is why WA, the NT, and Queensland had tough restrictions on entry from other places in Oz. The Vic State government recognised that there were recent immigrant communities who were likely also at greater risk, and that was partly behind Melbourne's tougher internal movement restrictions than elsewhere in Victoria.

I think we in Oz have a strong sense of mutual obligation, especially in regional areas, because community action and response has been the foundation of much of how the communities work, especially in response to fire and flood disasters. There are some dingbats about, mostly in the capital cities, who've not taken well to this collective responsibility imperative, and have arced up about it, looking like incoherent gooses. I'm triple-vaxxed as of yesterday, and all my circle of friends and rellos are too. I don't know anyone who is blasé about covid, or who reckons the "let 'er rip" idea is the right way to go.

I don't know how Kiwis think of their approach, but they are even more staunch than bush Aussies, so I reckon they'll take things into their stride without whingeing.

You were doing so right up until you reached for the stereotype again.

However to keep this short and sweet, the UK I seem to remember was quick off it's feet when the vaccines came into largescale production, whilst Australia & New Zealand still relied more on "zero-covid" measures. So you know, swings and roundabouts.

 

[Dent]

I think our national strategy has been to try to minimise spread and infections needing hospital care until such time as we have a very large proportion of residents vaxxed.

Haven't most people in Australia and New Zealand already been vaccinated? Where does imposing restrictions even after vaccination fit into that strategy, and what are they waiting for to end those restrictions?

 

[DustyBin]

But your man has decided he and his crowd should not be bound by the various social restrictions that his own government applied, whereas Ms Ardern is using herself to set a high standard across EnZed. That knocks your man right into the relegation zone of the credibility table.

I'm neither a citizen or resident of Aotearoa, but like most Aussies, I feel great goodwill, admiration, and some envy of my Kiwi cousins, so I'm finding it's a bit odd that the criticism of her leadership here is seemingly coming from pommies 20,000kms away, and not a peep out of EnZedders on this forum. I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.

We have just over 24 hours of Plan B restrictions left, with any remaining restrictions likely to follow them into the bin very quickly. I'd say that's "winning out" wouldn't you?

 

[OzLoon]

Haven't most people in Australia and New Zealand already been vaccinated? Where does imposing restrictions even after vaccination fit into that strategy, and what are they waiting for to end those restrictions?

I can't tell you about NZ, but in the bits of Oz I keep up with, there are travel and gathering restrictions because there is still a large unvaxxed population, or significant regional pockets of unvaxxed, with high numbers of the especially at risk. The various State/Territory first ministers have had their eye on the viability of health services (for not just any covid surge, but also to keep them able to manage their usual patient loads). This counts for more than someone's desire to go for a joyride or have a knees-up.

And because none of them have been under such self-inflicted calamities as your man, they haven't ripped off the restrictions in an attempt to distract from the rancour. We're managing the health and community care priorities first while putting a huge effort into the vax campaigns, and picking up the economic difficulties by direct financial support - billions - and from a spending-reluctant Federal government.

I think Aussies have generally supported their governments' approaches, and have sided with the protection strategy rather than the let 'er rip advocates. I'm very happy about that - it tells me we still have a high level of care and consideration for each other. Thatcher's "there's no such thing as society" never found much fertile ground here, especially in the regions and remote areas.

 

[bramling]

If the choice was to be led by a bungling buffoon or a dangerous deranged authoritarian, that's a pretty poor choice, but ultimately a straightforward one for me.

The problem with that is that Johnson could easily be a dangerous deranged authoritarian if he thought that was what served *him* best.

The people to be grateful to are more the likes of Sir Graham Brady or Steve Baker.

 

[OzLoon]

We have just over 24 hours of Plan B restrictions left, with any remaining restrictions likely to follow them into the bin very quickly. I'd say that's "winning out" wouldn't you?

If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".

It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning". My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.

The Kiwis have this in their national DNA, as do most Aussies. I think it's even likely in parts of the UK.

 

[abn444]

If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".

It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning". My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.

The Kiwis have this in their national DNA, as do most Aussies. I think it's even likely in parts of the UK.

What are you on about? I had COVID before Christmas and whilst it's not nice (what virus is?) I've had worse colds and I've not even been vaccinated. This whole thing with all these restrictions (a lot of which don't even do anything) is just a massive overreaction

 

[OzLoon]

What are you on about? I had COVID before Christmas and whilst it's not nice (what virus is?) I've had worse colds and I've not even been vaccinated. This whole thing with all these restrictions (a lot of which don't even do anything) is just a massive overreaction

The "I'm all right, Jack" philosophy never stuck much here, and has never been accepted social conduct. I'm very happy you were/are unaffected, but many thousands were/are not.

 

[abn444]

The "I'm all right, Jack" philosophy never stuck much here, and has never been accepted social conduct. I'm very happy you were/are unaffected, but many thousands were/are not.

The vast majority of which are people who don't have that long left anyway. And talking of "I'm alright jack", there's very much that attitude from people who aren't affected by all these restrictions and think they can go on forever without actually thinking of the impact they have

 

[takno]

The "I'm all right, Jack" philosophy never stuck much here, and has never been accepted social conduct. I'm very happy you were/are unaffected, but many thousands were/are not.

I'm alright jack doesn't have a lot to do with it. Understanding that the under 30s are at close to zero risk, and the under 40s at minimal risk is important. Beyond that you have to understand that the "all in it together" narrative isn't appealing to the unvaccinated older people. The biggest lie of all is that masks and viruses are there for the benefit of other people.

The deliberate lies that governments have been telling about risk and responsibility have simply worn out here. The same will happen there, although if other technical and social developments are any guide, that may not happen for another 20 years or so..

 

[yorkie]

The vast majority of which are people who don't have that long left anyway. And talking of "I'm alright jack", there's very much that attitude from people who aren't affected by all these restrictions and think they can go on forever without actually thinking of the impact they have

Very true on all counts.

 

[DustyBin]

If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".

It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning". My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.

The Kiwis have this in their national DNA, as do most Aussies. I think it's even likely in parts of the UK.

The lifting of restrictions isn’t really arbitrary though is it? The number of infections and (more importantly at this stage) deaths are dropping rapidly so why maintain restrictions that cause a great deal of harm to individuals and society? There’s not some “greater good” but there’s most certainly a “greater bad”.

To be honest it appears that there is, as you have suggested on more than one occasion, a very different mind set in England (and the UK generally) to that in Australia and certainly New Zealand. Generally speaking I think we’re more than happy to be given the information, assess the risk and make our own decisions. There’s far less reliance on the government stepping in and making decisions for us. Indeed when it has happened, far from feeling safe or protected, I’ve felt as though I’ve been infantilised, patronised and frankly my intelligence insulted. Such feelings seem to be quite prevalent here, particularly of late as people realise the risk from Covid really isn’t as great as some would have us believe.

In regard to the devolved nations, whilst the respective administrations may have been happy to impose unnecessary and damaging restrictions upon their populaces, it would be a mistake to think that ordinary people have been gladly accepting of it. Many have looked to England and longed to be free of the petty authoritarianism that has engulfed them, as I’m sure Scottish and Welsh forum members will be happy to verify!

 

[Jimini]

I’ve felt as though I’ve been infantilised, patronised and frankly my intelligence insulted.

Great way of putting it -- 100% the same here.

 

[BJames]

But your man has decided he and his crowd should not be bound by the various social restrictions that his own government applied, whereas Ms Ardern is using herself to set a high standard across EnZed. That knocks your man right into the relegation zone of the credibility table.

I'm neither a citizen or resident of Aotearoa, but like most Aussies, I feel great goodwill, admiration, and some envy of my Kiwi cousins, so I'm finding it's a bit odd that the criticism of her leadership here is seemingly coming from pommies 20,000kms away, and not a peep out of EnZedders on this forum. I think they have more grit and determination to win out - collectively and cooperatively - on any national priority, than the poor buggers in England. I think the Scots and the Welsh might give them a go, but not the Poms.

My family and friends live in New Zealand. I am half British, half Kiwi. I don't agree that the sentiment out in NZ is what you depict.

Ardern arguably led the country to success in 2020. It's widely documented that her policy was a huge success amongst New Zealanders - indeed, once the period of intense restrictions was over, New Zealand went back to the closest thing to normal on the planet.

Ardern now seems to be stuck in 2020. Graciously accepting that the Omicron variant will be here to stay, and observing that 77% of the population has been fully vaccinated, it is fair to say that we need to now be looking at a different approach. Thinking about "win out" in this context - when do the borders reopen (and properly - we have struggled and our family qualify on the list of permitted travellers!)? And most importantly, why are some clinging onto a fantasy that Zero Covid can be achieved (for the sanity of everyone here, I shall not go into this or quote sources. It is common sense at this point)? You've said that you think winning is minimising debilitating illness. I argue the vaccines have done this. We are well past this point now.

Over in the UK, we are returning to a state of almost normality on Thursday. Some people are still scared - some have more of a reason to (e.g. Clinically Extremely Vulnerable) than others (e.g. those who claim they don't "feel" safe - despite having had covid and three vaccines) - but even those who have a reason to should start to feel more confident. Yes, it looks increasingly the case that the government has broken the rules that I didn't agree with in the first place. But again, New Zealand is starting to look like the outlier - only this time, it's not for the right reasons. Those I know over there no longer want Jacinda Ardern in power. They are trapped in an endless cycle of moments in the restriction levels that means they can't plan properly for the short/medium term.

Long-term, I think Ardern knows the zero covid game is up. So why keep trying to suppress now? Keeping cases low in the community causes huge impacts that many think pale in comparison to health - but with high vaccination rates and lower health risk, we can't just wait for everyone to get a third vaccine, and then a fourth, etc. A new approach is needed. And more people think this out there than is publicised. It's true, I live in the UK, but we know a lot of people out in New Zealand. We're overdue a visit, but I won't be able to until I have complete certainty that my trip can go ahead, and until I do not have to pay for their Managed Isolation and Quarantine (MIQ) facilities on entry (and on that note, until MIQ disappears, I think a lot of people will be the same).

P.s. any points I have repeated, I apologise - I have not had time to read this thread, but I wanted to chip in from a NZ point of view!

 

[43066]

If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".

Hasn’t it occurred to you that “community health” doesn’t start and end with Covid? What about the effects of the overreaction to this virus on a whole multitude of other conditions?

It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning". My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.

Okay then.

Can you explain how any of those lofty ideals are served by arbitrary and ineffective mask mandates and other nonsensical restrictions which have had no effect wherever they’ve been introduced? Or could it all be just being done for appearances’ sake, because of a craven inability of politicians to admit these restrictions are no longer necessary!?

I’ve afraid you’ve been well and truly duped. As bad as the politicians in the U.K. may be, I’d take them over the authoritarian shower running things down under!

 

[OzLoon]

The vast majority of which are people who don't have that long left anyway. And talking of "I'm alright jack", there's very much that attitude from people who aren't affected by all these restrictions and think they can go on forever without actually thinking of the impact they have

I think the things that helped spread the impact here included that restrictions applied to everyone, so there wasn't an undercurrent of a favoured group getting special exemptions - the impact was on us all. It was wearing and limiting, and the less organised (or those less able to organise) would have done it hard, as would have the gregarious amongst us and those with fractious domestic circumstances.

No-one here, thankfully, proposed that grannie-sacrifice was the solution however. I think we are a lot more community-minded than that.

Hasn’t it occurred to you that “community health” doesn’t start and end with Covid? What about the effects of the overreaction to this virus on a whole multitude of other conditions?




Okay then.

Can you explain how any of those lofty ideals are served by arbitrary and ineffective mask mandates and other nonsensical restrictions which have had no effect wherever they’ve been introduced? Or could it all be just being done for appearances’ sake, because of a craven inability for politicians to admit these restrictions are no longer necessary!?

I’ve afraid you’ve been well and truly duped. As bad as the politicians in the U.K. may be, I’d take them over the authoritarian shower running things down under!

And so we are both well-served by you remaining where you are, eh?

I'm not a prisoner of any particular medical advice or recommendation nor do I have any medical background which lets me sensibly refute them, but I'll continue to listen to and apply the latest medical recommendations over anyone who - on the basis of their own googling - decides they should be ignored - we have a few of those who, I'm happy to note, are seen to be out-of-touch self-aggrandising buffoons.

 

[43066]

And so we are both well-served by you remaining where you are, eh?

We can certainly agree on this.

I'm not a prisoner of any particular medical advice or recommendation nor do I have any medical background which lets me sensibly refute them, but I'll continue to listen to and apply the latest medical recommendations over anyone who - on the basis of their own googling - decides they should be ignored - we have a few of those who, I'm happy to note, are seen to be out-of-touch self-aggrandising buffoons.

So in other words you’ll do whatever your politicians tell you to? I’d rather undertake my own research and think for myself rather than following medical “recommendations” from inept politicians. But you do you!

 

[OzLoon]

My family and friends live in New Zealand. I am half British, half Kiwi. I don't agree that the sentiment out in NZ is what you depict.

Ardern arguably led the country to success in 2020. It's widely documented that her policy was a huge success amongst New Zealanders - indeed, once the period of intense restrictions was over, New Zealand went back to the closest thing to normal on the planet.

(snip)

P.s. any points I have repeated, I apologise - I have not had time to read this thread, but I wanted to chip in from a NZ point of view!

And thankyou for jumping in - I'm more than four hours by air west of EnZed and so without benefit of being as close as you. There's no doubt there's a very high respect for Kiwiland in Oz, and Jacinda Ardern in particular - some of it is a comparison to our national government, so admittedly from a low bar.

The serious action in Oz is at state and territory government level, and it's the case at least so far, that each of the first ministers has enhanced the regard they are held in within their state or territory, even although the restrictions have been applied using state and territory laws and authorities rather than the Feds' (except they do the international borders).

Oz and Aotearoa have completely different government systems - we are a Federation with distinctly different Federal/State responsibilities. Our national parliament is bi-cameral with both houses popularly elected and both are needed for successful legislation and regulation passing. The Kiwis have a unicameral system, and few if any devolved powers (but I'm not schooled in comparative government).

Of all the countries in the world, I'd live here first, and would happily live in NZ in a heartbeat. I reckon I'd not be Robinson Crusoe in that regard - even amongst those posting here

We can certainly agree on this.



So in other words you’ll do whatever your politicians tell you to? I’d rather undertake my own research and think for myself rather than following medical “recommendations” from inept politicians. But you do you!

The good thing is, the various Chief Medical Officers have carried the major messaging and made good cases for it, rather than the pollies, and when the pollies have gone to the lectern, they've not interpreted their CMO, but emphasised their message. Additionally, at the pollie coalface here, it's been the state/territory leaders who have made the running, and they have mostly shown how ept they are with consequent enhancement of their standing.

Even 20,000kms away, I can see why that isn't your experience with your man and his team. I'd certainly not want to swap places with you.

 

[abn444]

(snip)


And thankyou for jumping in - I'm more than four hours by air west of EnZed and so without benefit of being as close as you. There's no doubt there's a very high respect for Kiwiland in Oz, and Jacinda Ardern in particular - some of it is a comparison to our national government, so admittedly from a low bar.

The serious action in Oz is at state and territory government level, and it's the case at least so far, that each of the first ministers has enhanced the regard they are held in within their state or territory, even although the restrictions have been applied using state and territory laws and authorities rather than the Feds' (except they do the international borders).

Oz and Aotearoa have completely different government systems - we are a Federation with distinctly different Federal/State responsibilities. Our national parliament is bi-cameral with both houses popularly elected and both are needed for successful legislation and regulation passing. The Kiwis have a unicameral system, and few if any devolved powers (but I'm not schooled in comparative government).

Of all the countries in the world, I'd live here first, and would happily live in NZ in a heartbeat. I reckon I'd not be Robinson Crusoe in that regard - even amongst those posting here



The good thing is, the various Chief Medical Officers have carried the major messaging and made good cases for it, rather than the pollies, and when the pollies have gone to the lectern, they've not interpreted their CMO, but emphasised their message. Additionally, at the pollie coalface here, it's been the state/territory leaders who have made the running, and they have mostly shown how ept they are with consequent enhancement of their standing.

Even 20,000kms away, I can see why that isn't your experience with your man and his team. I'd certainly not want to swap places with you.

In some ways it's been similar here but the medical advisors have got it wrong pretty much every time with their exaggerations and dodgy doom and gloom modelling. If I got it that wrong that often I'd have been fired ages ago, not only that but one of them (professor "pantsdown" Ferguson) believed his own doom and gloom so much that he went off and had an affair. Ferguson even has a history of over exaggerating with his modelling with everything from swine flu to foot and mouth

 

[yorksrob]

If "winning" was the arbitrary lifting of restrictions, regardless of community health - yes you have "won".

It seems like we have different views of what constitutes "winning". My definition includes minimising debilitating illness, keeping essential services viable, maintaining or enhancing community connection, earning confidence in key institutions by their good work and sound advice, having a citizenry willing to spread the load for common benefit.

The Kiwis have this in their national DNA, as do most Aussies. I think it's even likely in parts of the UK.

The health service isn't at risk here in the UK (at least no more than it usually is). Additionally essential services and community connections are considerably more viable (and available) than during periods of heavy restriction.

This is the gift of the vaccination programme, not a result of a desire to open up prematurely.

I'm all for community action where there is a point to it, but self-flagellation for no benefit doesn't appeal, which is what we would be doing in the UK if we continued with restrictions at this point.

 

[Yew]

The "I'm all right, Jack" philosophy never stuck much here, and has never been accepted social conduct. I'm very happy you were/are unaffected, but many thousands were/are not.

How about those suffering under the restrictions that have been forced upon them?

 

[OzLoon]

How about those suffering under the restrictions that have been forced upon them?

Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

Which of the restrictions applied to whom and where upset you the most? Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England? I've written of the reasons states and territory governments decided to do so, and that they seemed to have enhanced their standings in the electorate (with the likely exception of NSW - Australia's least competent state government which was the least impressive in managing things, and almost as bad as the Feds who are about to be thrown out of office).

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?

 

[Yew]

Maybe we're made of sterner stuff and can manage a period of hardship better than you when a case has been made that the restrictions were fair, logical, and part of a recovery plan.

Which of the restrictions applied to whom and where upset you the most? Or is it just the concept of restrictions being applied here, rather than just letting 'er rip that is so irksome to you sitting there in England? I've written of the reasons states and territory governments decided to do so, and that they seemed to have enhanced their standings in the electorate (with the likely exception of NSW - Australia's least competent state government which was the least impressive in managing things, and almost as bad as the Feds who are about to be thrown out of office).

How many grannies should we have sacrificed?

As long as you’re alright, Jack.