what is the Furthest South in the UK has a 142 ever been

[34D]

Perhaps the question should be, how close to the south-east has a pacer got?'

I know that LEV1 and the class 140 operated around Ipswich in the 1980s.

5th June 2011 unit 142080 travelled empty Cardiff Canton to Doncaster via Ealing Broadway/Camden Road/Finsbury Park. They are prohibited south of Peterborough normally.

 

[northernrailer]

142001 made it from Exeter to Penzance in place of a Sprinter when FGW had the class 142s, when 142001 returned back from Penzance it had the Cornish flag sticker in the cab window, which it still has now even tho the units back with Northern.

Also 143619 did the same journey and has the flag as well.

 

[TEW]

That's a Devon flag that 142001 has. 143619 does or did have a Cornish flag. It was quite a rarity when 143619 ran to Penzance as it was when the 143s were based in the Bristol area, and even getting one to Devon was quite a rare occasion. A couple more have visited since the fleet has been based at Exeter.

 

[southern442]

One must surely have got to Penzance during the "skipper" days. That's as far south as you can get on the UK rail network.

I can picture a 142 in cross country livery

 

[sarahj]

The problem at Newcastle was not the Bridges, but heading towards Sunderland the reverse curves after the high level. Was once on one, on a damp day, that could not get round those curves. So the driver had to reverse back to the High Level and take a faster run up. Made it second time.:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

According to Wikipedia 142049 was sent to Vancouver to operate a shuttle between Abbotsford and Vancouver during Expo 1986 before being sent back to Britain.

I think a straight line across from Vancouver finishes up between Britain and the Channel Islands.

 

[JamesRowden]

So... why can't you take the 142s straight away instead, rather than the needless cascades? (Apart from the myriad other problems with this proposal...)

The 142s have a top speed of 75 mph. The East Coastway (Brighton to Hastings) has a speed of 90 mph (according to Network Rail's Route Specification document).

 

[northwichcat]

The 142s have a top speed of 75 mph. The East Coastway (Brighton to Hastings) has a speed of 90 mph (according to Network Rail's Route Specification document).

That doesn't stop 142s being booked traction on Northern peak time services on the WCML which could utilise a 90mph or even faster top speed.

 

[Lockwood]

The problem at Newcastle was not the Bridges, but heading towards Sunderland the reverse curves after the high level. Was once on one, on a damp day, that could not get round those curves. So the driver had to reverse back to the High Level and take a faster run up. Made it second time.:roll:

I'd love to have heard the call between the driver and signaller about doing that reversing.
"Hello, Sunderland Box."
"Hello, this is driver 2A01. My train is stuck on this curve. I wish to do a short reversing movement so I can slam into this faster and force it round. You ok with that?"
(flat) "You want to what?"

 

[JamesRowden]

That doesn't stop 142s being booked traction on Northern peak time services on the WCML which could utilise a 90mph or even faster top speed.

There is a difference between operating them on an hourly service and a peak-only service

 

[High Dyke]

The problem at Newcastle was not the Bridges, but heading towards Sunderland the reverse curves after the high level. Was once on one, on a damp day, that could not get round those curves. So the driver had to reverse back to the High Level and take a faster run up. Made it second time.:roll:

I seem to recall an incident (pre Network Rail) at Newton Heath depot where the driver reported getting stuck. I'll see if i have a record of it at home.

 

[tadhatter]

Let's face it. The 142s are really rubbish units as far as passenger experience goes. Having said that, at the time of production in the early 80s budgets were heavily squeezed so producing anything was going to be challenging and they have proved pretty relaibke overall as 30 years of active service is testimony. At least you can look out the "bus" windows when travelling on them unlike pendolino carriages which are also rubbish but for different reasons.

 

[TheKnightWho]

There is a difference between operating them on an hourly service and a peak-only service

Yes. The peak service is probably more important!

 

[northwichcat]

There is a difference between operating them on an hourly service and a peak-only service

Indeed. Pathing issues caused by 75mph running on mainlines are a much bigger issue at peak times when there are more services to squeeze in.

 

[Rapidash]

They seem to be a bit endangered down here at the mo. I commuted six days this week, and only saw a pair of them doubled up on a weekend run. All my trips during weektime were Sprinters, thank the Gawds.

Are they becoming weekend runabouts to give the Sprinters a day off?

 

[JamesRowden]

Yes. The peak service is probably more important!

One cannot use time travel to make a unit that is spare during the off-peak run two services during the peak simultaneously.

Indeed. Pathing issues caused by 75mph running on mainlines are a much bigger issue at peak times when there are more services to squeeze in.

The Marshlink has single track sections at either end of Rye station (which means that services need to arrive/depart simultaneously) and just 12 minutes turn around time at Brighton.

I have looked at the descriptions of the 142s and they seem good for 75 mph lines which do not need to load too many people on each service. I have subsequently come up with the idea that if the Marshlink (Hastings-Ashford) is upgraded from 60 mph (plus PSRs) to 75 mph (minus PSRs) (the Route Specification document shows this upgrade) that the time saved may be enough to operate 2tph in each direction along the single tracked section between Ore and Rye. The Pacers having a top speed 75 mph and being 31m long makes it look although a 2tph Hastings-Ashford Pacer operated shuttle service might be a good idea. I think that the Pacers being 31m long means that they will be able to utilise all doors when stopping at some of the stations that have very short platforms. Four pacers would need to be in service (so five would be needed in total to account for spares). The Pacers would spend about hour at Hastings but since people in the north don't seem to want them this probably isn't a big problem.

 

[northwichcat]

JamesRowden: The advantages you say Pacers have is why people in the North don't want them. They are too small for many of the services Northern use them on, while a number of services that they aren't too small for are lengthy journeys so Pacers aren't that suitable for those services either. Overcrowding affects Pacer's acceleration a lot more than it affects a Sprinter's or a Turbostar's acceleration.

 

[JamesRowden]

JamesRowden: The advantages you say Pacers have is why people in the North don't want them. They are too small for many of the services Northern use them on, while a number of services that they aren't too small for are lengthy journeys so Pacers aren't that suitable for those services either. Overcrowding affects Pacer's acceleration a lot more than it affects a Sprinter's or a Turbostar's acceleration.

The Brighton-Ashford services can be overcrowded during the off-peak because its only 45m long and operating the express service.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One cannot use time travel to make a unit that is spare during the off-peak run two services during the peak simultaneously.

My point was that it's probably a better idea to get the Pacers off the WCML and onto a much more minor line.

 

[northwichcat]

The Brighton-Ashford services can be overcrowded during the off-peak because its only 45m long and operating the express service.

The 2 car 171s are slightly longer than that - 47.2m. They actually have less seats than a Merseytravel Pacer so how about we give you some of those as a direct swap for 171s? The 171s would suit the quieter longer services in the Northern area that get Pacers such as Leeds to Morecambe.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The 2 car 171s are slightly longer than that - 47.2m. They actually have less seats than a Merseytravel Pacer so how about we give you some of those as a direct swap for 171s? The 171s would suit the quieter longer services in the Northern area that get Pacers such as Leeds to Morecambe.

And the Tyne Valley line, perhaps. I've always thought that would do very well with some 171s.

 

[JamesRowden]

The 2 car 171s are slightly longer than that - 47.2m. They actually have less seats than a Merseytravel Pacer so how about we give you some of those as a direct swap for 171s? The 171s would suit the quieter longer services in the Northern area that get Pacers such as Leeds to Morecambe.

My memory was 23-0.5m per car instead of 23+0.5m per car.

If three 377s (or similar) are available to run Brighton-Hastings fast services, then (if I had the power) I would be willing trade four 171s for five 142s (refurbished for rural operation) to run 2tph Hastings-Ashford (this wouldn't be so until the Marshlink has been upgraded to 75mph thoughout). The other two 171s could be sent to lengthern the London-Uckfield services.

 

[sarahj]

There are a few shuttles each day running just from Hastings to Ashford. Its often cancelled due to lack of stock. I think Southern should get a pacer to run that. Give them at Eastbourne something to moan about.

 

[anti-pacer]

As a marshlink resident I'm surprised that they haven't considered adding another coach with electric motors and the disabled accomodation to the 142s.
They could then stay in service for another 25 years and would be ideal for Transpennine Express services as they could operate to destinations off the wires.
The 185s could then be sent down south to offer much needed extra capacity on marsh link and the other diesel lines.

This has got to be a wind-up!

 

[paul1609]

Why does it have to be a wind up?
You are suggesting that the pacers are transfered to the Ashford to Brighton line. Distance wise this is around 70 miles about the same as Manchester to York in Northern terms.
Clearly this service isn't one of Southerns big earners but it still pays the treasury 0.6 p per passenger mile compared to Transpennines subsidy of 16 pence per passenger mile or Northerns 40 pence subsidy according to the ORR figures.
It certainly makes financial sense for Transpennine to have refurbished Pacers so the newer trains can be sent to more profitable services down South

 

[D365]

Never mind that your proposed Pacer conversion isn't technically feasible... It's supposed to be hard enough with the recent DEMU Voyager build, but DMU railbuses nearing the end of their lives? The lines in question already have relatively modern 171s; capacity would be better provided by (converted 170/168) Turbostars or (more likely than third-rail) OHLE.

 

[Darren R]

Why does it have to be a wind up?
You are suggesting that the pacers are transfered to the Ashford to Brighton line. Distance wise this is around 70 miles about the same as Manchester to York in Northern terms.
Clearly this service isn't one of Southerns big earners but it still pays the treasury 0.6 p per passenger mile compared to Transpennines subsidy of 16 pence per passenger mile or Northerns 40 pence subsidy according to the ORR figures.
It certainly makes financial sense for Transpennine to have refurbished Pacers so the newer trains can be sent to more profitable services down South

Quite so - every time I step foot on a Pacer I find myself thinking 'I don't know how lucky I am! I could be travelling on one of those brand-new things the poor commuters in the Home Counties have to put up with, trains with such fripperies as eight wheels to a carriage, bogies and decent suspension!'

 

[northwichcat]

Why does it have to be a wind up?
You are suggesting that the pacers are transfered to the Ashford to Brighton line. Distance wise this is around 70 miles about the same as Manchester to York in Northern terms.
Clearly this service isn't one of Southerns big earners but it still pays the treasury 0.6 p per passenger mile compared to Transpennines subsidy of 16 pence per passenger mile or Northerns 40 pence subsidy according to the ORR figures.
It certainly makes financial sense for Transpennine to have refurbished Pacers so the newer trains can be sent to more profitable services down South

First thing is no services run from just Manchester to York - the shortest will be Manchester Airport to York but that's only being introduced in to the regular service pattern next year.

Second thing is if the Northern and TPE franchises are merged and a TPE unit fails at York where a spare 142 or 144 is sat then I think the chance of that Pacer actually being put on to a TPE working is very high - it happened when TPE was part of the Regional Railways North East franchise so I can see it happening it again if the franchises are merged.

Third thing is comparing the franchise subsidy per passenger mile when comparing two specific routes is meaningless. On the same basis you could say Manchester to Scotland was profitable when Virgin ran 4 car Voyagers on it but stopped becoming profitable the day TPE took over the route and put 3 car 185s on it due to Virgin being a profitable franchise and TPE needing a subsidy.

 

[tadhatter]

First thing is no services run from just Manchester to York - the shortest will be Manchester Airport to York but that's only being introduced in to the regular service pattern next year.

Second thing is if the Northern and TPE franchises are merged and a TPE unit fails at York where a spare 142 or 144 is sat then I think the chance of that Pacer actually being put on to a TPE working is very high - it happened when TPE was part of the Regional Railways North East franchise so I can see it happening it again if the franchises are merged.

Third thing is comparing the franchise subsidy per passenger mile when comparing two specific routes is meaningless. On the same basis you could say Manchester to Scotland was profitable when Virgin ran 4 car Voyagers on it but stopped becoming profitable the day TPE took over the route and put 3 car 185s on it due to Virgin being a profitable franchise and TPE needing a subsidy.

The (albeit few) transpenine services that I've been on have always been pretty much full for reasonably long distances (Manchester - Leeds, Leeds - Liverpool, Huddersfield - York and Newcastle - Huddersfield) . I thus can't see how they wouldn't be profitable?

 

[northwichcat]

The (albeit few) transpenine services that I've been on have always been pretty much full for reasonably long distances (Manchester - Leeds, Leeds - Liverpool, Huddersfield - York and Newcastle - Huddersfield) . I thus can't see how they wouldn't be profitable?

The 185s cost a fortune to operate. If TPE were using 4 car Turbostars instead of 3 car Desiros the running costs would probably be less.

A new eco-mode feature was introduced on the 185s and TPE claimed introducing it on their 51 x 3 car 185s saves enough diesel over the course of a year to power their 9 x 2 car 170s for a year, so that shows how much diesel the 185s wasted before eco-mode was introduced.